Blackwater...

Follow up

Here is a video that is supposed to be them in Iraq

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXgcQNsUKO0

I thought about it just a little bit more and have come to think that they are just a progression of an occupation. Because even though one is in the service and serving their country, ultimately, it is a "job". These guys who have gained their skills and experience while in the military and have served their time are just moving on to what they think is best for them.

As someone earlier put it, it's not really different than someone serving their time in the service as a lawyer or doctor, get honorably discharged and become a lawyer or a doctor on the outside.

As far as them being mercenaries, so long as they are working for a US company for the US govt., they are not mercenaries. True mercenaries will work for anyone for a price. As far as I know, Blackwater has not done so. They may have non American soldiers in their employ, but while working for BW, they would have to follow all their rules and regs which the company is supposed to follow. Now, if Bin Laden or North Korea offers them higher pay and they work for them, then they would be true mercenaries.

Regarding their nature, Blackwater is supposedly the premier, largest, and most professional amongst the PMC community. They are definitely not glorified mall ninja security as someone commented. Its CEO is a former Navy SEAL and hires mainly from the military elite, or those with a large amount of combat experience. I think it would be harder to get into BW than into Aegis, Armor Group, Triple Canopy, etc. And because of their prominence, I'm guessing they have to be "cleaner" and not do stuff like DynCorp and Aegis (I think) did in South Africa and other places.
 
DonR101395, I already am. That doesnt make the point any less valid or more valid. The Navy is sizing down right now. However we have hired civilians to do jobs that Sailors used to do, and that they would like to do. My point stands. In my eyes, these organizations are not welcome, and will be treated as such by me.
 
DonR101395, I already am. That doesnt make the point any less valid or more valid. The Navy is sizing down right now. However we have hired civilians to do jobs that Sailors used to do, and that they would like to do. My point stands. In my eyes, these organizations are not welcome, and will be treated as such by me.
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We've done the same, so that more people are available to deploy. I don't understand your attitude towards them, but I guess that doesn't really matter.
 
Blackwater story

I was introduced to blackwater by a story whereby a small group <10 of US soldiers were stranded in a multi story building while the town below was being overrun by insurgents. An extraction mission was taking too long to be authorized due to the risk. As the story was told to me a small group of blackwater snipers that were personally financed by a higher up were dropped on the building to fight with the Soldiers and were able hold the building until they could be extracted.

If that story is true than there are definite advantages to being able to cut through bureaucracy with the almighty dollar. I see it as a slippery slope, however my overall opinion of the blackwater guys is very favorable.
 
DonR, issue of pay

DonR,

1. I salute you for your past and present service to our country. I've had different family members serve in Vietnam War and Desert Storm.

2. the pay that any individual gets is not determined by how much that individual thinks his labor is worth.

It's determined by how much the market (potential employers and the consumers) is willing to pay for it.

How much the market is willing to pay for one's labor is determined by how many other qualified people are willing to do the same work for. This includes hazard duty pay factor.

If there is a large pool of other applicants willing to bear the same risk for less money, market rate of pay will decrease.

For example, being a taxi driver is statistically, much more hazardous job than being a police officer. But usually, the pay for a taxi driver is much less than the pay for a police officer due to intense competition stemming from low job requirement for a taxi driver. Low job requirement means that a larger pool of applicants are qualified for the job.

During late 1960s/early 1970s post-space era, there was a glut of PhD physicists due to cut down in US space program and average salary dropped, with some of them even having to work in menial jobs.

Enlistees from Eastern Europe in French Foreign Legion(FFL) does not get paid close to $500 a day but when economic alternatives in their native countries shrunk due to collapse of Communism, suddenly what would be considered very low pay in FFL(for those of us in USA) became very, very attractive economically speaking. However, this phenomenon is not limited to people from Eastern Europe.

At one time, it was a common practice for people in Switzerland to hire themselves out to West European countries as mercenaries. Swiss Guards had a very high reputation for discipline and training, and on some occasions, came close to being completely decimated. Off course, today, with Switzerland having one of the highest per capita GDP in the world, the incentives for Swiss to volunteer for military work outside their native country would be quite low (even if the law against Swiss mercenaries was lifted).

BTW, there are instances of lowly paid FFL mercenaries fighting against incredible odds such as ~60 Legionnaires holding off over 2,000 opposing soldiers for several days, fighting down to last man. Gurkhas from Nepal are not paid very much to serve in Royal British Army but the pay and the benefits are very attractive compared to the alternatives they have in their home country of Nepal.

Incidentally, Gurkhas fighting in British Army have won more Victoria's Cross (equivalent to our Medal of Honor) than any other units in the British Army. BTW, Gurkhas serving in the Royal UK Army are not British citizen. This would be akin to foreigners serving in integrated foreigner only unit in US Army consistently being awarded more Congressional Medal of Honor than any other unit.

3. satisfaction you get from any job, commercial/military/police, is not solely a function of financial compensation. It's a function of financial incentives combined with non-economic factors such as patriotism, personal fit, willingness to do something different, tradition, etc.

Best regards.

--John

>>>
DonR101395, re: post#31
Posts: 1,717

I would have to disagree. They have training, experience and a skill set that is worth money. They are being paid to potentially give their life. Many have a hard time finding insurance because of their profession. They are being compensated for all of the things that would have to be paid if they were in the military. If they aren't working a contract they aren't getting a paycheck. There are ups and downs to both sides.
I've always thought the military pay was too low given what you're asked to potentially give. But then we would have people screaming that the military is just doing it for the money and has no allegiance to their country. I say this while currently on active duty with 20+ years of service.
__________________
 
private security (base access guys and such) rile me because those are shore duty billets that were there to give Sailors a break from deploying all the time. Now an MA gets to look forward to boat tour, iraq, boat tour, afghanistan, boat tour, boat tour. No shore duty to give back to their family that is supporting them.

private security like the bozo's that run through regular neighborhoods armed with yellow lights on their cars bother me because they are armed enforcers of company policy, and that is never a good thing.


BW and their like because as i said before, there is no accountability for our current civil law enforcement agencies, how in the world are they going to hold a private company to any kind of standard. civil recourse is fine and dandy until somebody gets killed. they can swear any oath they want to swear, but at the end of the day, they are a private company, and we have all seen how private companies are treated in this country.

these are my opinions, and i am not asking anybody to agree with me. You asked and I answered.

I will add on however, that it is nice to be able to have this conversation without it devolving into a flamewar between everyone.

Jamie
 
DonR,

1. I salute you for your past and present service to our country. I've had different family members serve in Vietnam War and Desert Storm.

2. the pay that any individual gets is not determined by how much that individual thinks his labor is worth.

It's determined by how much the market (potential employers and the consumers) is willing to pay for it.

How much the market is willing to pay for one's labor is determined by how many other qualified people are willing to do the same work for. This includes hazard duty pay factor.

If there is a large pool of other applicants willing to bear the same risk for less money, market rate of pay will decrease.

For example, being a taxi driver is statistically, much more hazardous job than being a police officer. But usually, the pay for a taxi driver is much less than the pay for a police officer due to intense competition stemming from low job requirement for a taxi driver.

During late 1960s/early 1970s post-space era, there was a glut of PhD physicists due to cut down in US space program and average salary dropped, with some of them even having to work in menial jobs.

Enlistees from Eastern Europe in French Foreign Legion(FFL) does not get paid close to $500 a day but when economic alternatives in their native countries shrunk due to collapse of Communism, suddenly what would be considered very low pay in FFL(for those of us in USA) became very, very attractive economically speaking. However, this phenomenon is not limited to people from Eastern Europe.

At one time, it was a common practice for people in Switzerland to hire themselves out to West European countries as mercenaries. Swiss Guards had a very high reputation for discipline and training, and on some occasions, came close to being completely decimated. Off course, today, with Switzerland having one of the highest per capita GDP in the world, the incentives for Swiss to volunteer for military work outside their native country would be quite low (even if the law against Swiss mercenaries was lifted).

BTW, there are instances of lowly paid FFL mercenaries fighting against incredible odds such as ~60 Legionnaires holding off over 2,000 opposing soldiers for several days, fighting down to last man. Gurkhas from Nepal are not paid very much to serve in Royal British Army but the pay and the benefits are very attractive compared to the alternatives they have in their home country of Nepal.

Incidentally, Gurkhas fighting in British Army have won more Victoria's Cross (equivalent to our Medal of Honor) than any other units in the British Army.

3. satisfaction you get from any job, commercial/military/police, is not solely a function of financial compensation. It's a function of financial incentives combined with non-economic factors such as patriotism, personal fit, willingness to do something different, tradition, etc.
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Not really sure how we got into the FFL and Ghurkas. The FFL and the Ghurkas aren't hiring well trained men with years of practical experience. They are taking new recruits and training them. It's apples and oranges. The current market for their skill set pays $550 a day. It makes no difference what the FFL, Ghurka or Swiss guards make.
In recent years the market could bear $1500 a day. With the increase in willing and trained applicants came the decrease in salary.
They are paying as low a price as they can get away paying and still get the same caliber of trained individual.
I'll agree money doesn't always equate to happiness, but it sure can help.
 
private security (base access guys and such) rile me because those are shore duty billets that were there to give Sailors a break from deploying all the time. Now an MA gets to look forward to boat tour, iraq, boat tour, afghanistan, boat tour, boat tour. No shore duty to give back to their family that is supporting them.
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I can see your point to a degree, but the flip side to that is did you join the Navy to serve on a ship or on shore? To sit at home and fight boredom or deploy and fight an enemy?

private security like the bozo's that run through regular neighborhoods armed with yellow lights on their cars bother me because they are armed enforcers of company policy, and that is never a good thing.
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They get what they pay for, you want to atract bozos, pay minimum wage and you'll get the minimum standard.


BW and their like because as i said before, there is no accountability for our current civil law enforcement agencies, how in the world are they going to hold a private company to any kind of standard. civil recourse is fine and dandy until somebody gets killed. they can swear any oath they want to swear, but at the end of the day, they are a private company, and we have all seen how private companies are treated in this country.
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I'm with you on the accountability issue. It's been lax in the past, but is getting better. I see PMCs as free enterprise in action.


these are my opinions, and i am not asking anybody to agree with me. You asked and I answered.
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That's cool, I was just curious. We'll have to agree to disagree, no blood no foul.

I will add on however, that it is nice to be able to have this conversation without it devolving into a flamewar between everyone.

Jamie
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Yes it is, I try not to get emotional, but don't always succeed. I'm trying though:cool:
 
DonR

people who serve in FFL and Gurkha Brigade bear extremely high physical risk. Considering the extraordinarily high rate of awards of Victoria's Crosses for Gurkha Brigade, hazard duty factor is probably very, very high.

Lot of E. European enlistees in FFL were former soldiers in Warsaw Pact forces.

Cost of training and experiences for experienced soldiers are much less compared to that of engineers. Not only, the amount of human capital and training and native intelligences for occupation such as engineers is much higher than that for soldiers, even private sector hired contractors.

If business organizations like BW increase, supply will increase and pay will go down. What's keeping it down is relative lack of social acceptance which is changing.

BTW, high pay makes sense in that it encourages more people to go into that occupation. But the very fact that more and more people supply the needed labor skills mean that supply of desired labor relative to demand will increase at a faster pace, leading to lower and lower wages until an equilibrium point is reached.

DonR>>>
Not really sure how we got into the FFL and Ghurkas. The FFL and the Ghurkas aren't hiring well trained men with years of practical experience. They are taking new recruits and training them. It's apples and oranges. The current market for their skill set pays $550 a day. It makes no difference what the FFL, Ghurka or Swiss guards make.
In recent years the market could bear $1500 a day. With the increase in willing and trained applicants came the decrease in salary.
They are paying as low a price as they can get away paying and still get the same caliber of trained individual.
I'll agree money doesn't always equate to happiness, but it sure can help.
 
They are mercenaries, and they took peoples weapons in Katrina from even the elite and retired LEO's during their house to house sweeps.
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You have some evidence to support this claim? Or is this just another rumor? When I worked for a tactical gear manufacturer, I talked to a few Blackwater guys and they all seem like regular guys, if a little high strung. I've also talked to a few guys from Aegis who told me that the main problem with BW is that they've become so high profile that now THEY are targets as much as anyone they're protecting. So when the insurgents attack their client, it's all good to them if they get the main target or one of the BW guys.

As for them and Katrina, if you're going to hire private security, you want the best, right?
 
people who serve in FFL and Gurkha Brigade bear extremely high physical risk. Considering the extraordinarily high rate of awards of Victoria's Crosses for Gurkha Brigade, hazard duty factor is probably very, very high.

Lot of E. European enlistees in FFL were former soldiers in Warsaw Pact forces.

Cost of training and experiences for experienced soldiers are much less compared to that of engineers. Not only, the amount of human capital and training and native intelligences for occupation such as engineers is much higher than that for soldiers, even private sector hired contractors.

If business organizations like BW increase, supply will increase and pay will go down. What's keeping it down is relative lack of social acceptance which is changing.

BTW, high pay makes sense in that it encourages more people to go into that occupation. But the very fact that more and more people supply the needed labor skills mean that supply of desired labor relative to demand will increase at a faster pace, leading to lower and lower wages until an equilibrium point is reached.
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I understand all of that. The point you apparently aren't getting is that the FFL and Ghurkas are part of an established military, run by a government. PMCs are privately owned and much smaller. They have the luxury of only accepting who they want with the skill set they want. When BW hires someone they have to conduct maintenance training. When the FFL or Ghurkas hire someone they have to conduct initial training. Since most of BW employees have received similar, nearly the same if not the same initial training while in the U.S. military it cuts down on training costs and that money can be used to pay higher wages.
Nobody ever said contractors were smarter than an engineer. If you want to build a bridge hire an engineer. If you need security hire a security company. Would you rather have an armed group of engineers for a security detail or and armed groups of security professionals? I know which one I'd choose.

BTW: How many engineers put their butts in life threatening situations as part of their job?
 
dont get me wrong, i am not saying that i like deploying, however i realize that it is part of being in the military. that being said, the shore billets are to recharge your batteries, so to speak. it is currently being shown in the Navy that running back to back deployment cycles with no breaks is a morale killer, and is hurting families. Other services are hurting also, however I cant speak for them. Seems to me that paying a military contract to a private firm would be more expensive than recruiting more people and putting an MA at the same post at that gate.

again, just my opinion. Agree to disagree, and agree on some points is good with me.:cool:
 
Good discussion we have going on here...

DonR101395, I can see where you're going with your point of view. However I do have to say that something just doesn't sit right with the thought of a big company like Blackwater taking over the role of military and law enforcement all in one.

ManedWolf, I know we've had disagreements in some of our political threads, but in this case I really have to say I agree with you on this one. I do strongly feel that any corporate paramilitary force, especially one with way too much money and a religious nutcase who can order his company to do whatever it wants is rather disturbing. I would fully agree that if I am on my own property after a disaster and some corporate thug was trying to act like a cop, I'd be more inclined to refuse him and if push came to shove give him some steel slugs for dinner if he was trying to "confiscate" my weapons in order to "reduce crime". This is why it is important for every American citizen to know their rights and organize. During a disaster a good community can resist criminals of all kinds, from the common street gremlin to the jack booted terrorist. (Yes, terrorists.)


Epyon
 
DonR101395, I can see where you're going with your point of view. However I do have to say that something just doesn't sit right with the thought of a big company like Blackwater taking over the role of military and law enforcement all in one.
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That's cool Epyon. That's one of the great things about our country. We can discuss, agree and disagree freely.
 
A truism that applies here:

NEVER create a monster-it will ALWAYS eventually turn on YOU.

Truism in that it has never failed to manifest. We like monsters that do our will, but monsters always default to their OWN will eventually.

This organization has been allotted license to kill and arm themselves with weapons only our Armed Forces can also bear.

It will only take their decision makers deciding that they are not accountable to anyone and can self fund via their own means for this monster to turn.
 
Hasnt the last 2000 years showed the world that mercenaries really arent such a great idea? i'm uncomfortable with anyone having too much power... Goverment military is one thing... but a private company having the same power? sounds like a disaster waiting to happen to me.
 
NEVER create a monster-it will ALWAYS eventually turn on YOU.

Truism in that it has never failed to manifest. We like monsters that do our will, but monsters always default to their OWN will eventually.
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I guess in this case the monster is based on perspective, and our perspective differs.

This organization has been allotted license to kill and arm themselves with weapons only our Armed Forces can also bear.
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How so? They use the same weapons that you can use provided you pay the $200 tax stamp. When they are out of the country they use weapons that are legal for use in that country.


It will only take their decision makers deciding that they are not accountable to anyone and can self fund via their own means for this monster to turn.
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Comments like this always make me wonder what/who exactly you think these men are? They aren't robots, they are patriotic men making a living. They have served their country and decided that they wanted more than the military could provide for them.



Just to throw a little more conspiracy into the plot. Eric Prince's sister is also married to the son of the Amway company founder.
 
Hasnt the last 2000 years showed the world that mercenaries really arent such a great idea?
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How so?
i'm uncomfortable with anyone having too much power...
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Agreed


Goverment military is one thing... but a private company having the same power? sounds like a disaster waiting to happen to me.
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How do they have the same power as the military?
 
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