Blackwater...

[Bruxley]

I would like to own one of the new safe/semi/burst M-4s they carry. Or the frag grenades, even a couple flash/bangs. Even an up-armored Humvee w/ mounted M-249. You claim all I need is the $200 stamp eh. Please, this is a firearms forum, we all know better. Have to find a willing seller of a PREBAN, not new, Class III weapon.

As for how they have military-like power, I believe I would be quickly subdued and arrested, if not killed, if I were to take a team to Baghdad and start hunting down and killing insurgents. Or forming armed cavalcades to escort arms or personnel through downtown toward Tikrit.

And what level of authority were they granted to go into New Orleans in armed squads enforcing law while other civilians were having their legally owned weapons confiscated by force? Sounds like a National Guard (military) authority.

As for who I think these men are, they are US military veterans that by and large accepted jobs with BlackWater in lieu of re-enlisting due to better compensation and less entanglement. Patriots I'm sure, but money has been known to buy loyalty and power can seduce even more.

The 2 responsibilities that I feel should NEVER be privatized are law enforcement and the US military. These 2 entities need to be held strongly in check by the people via our elected representatives. A career contracting officer and the threat of breech of contract are not satisfactory. DIRECT Congressional/Municipal oversight and authority or no deal.

 

[Pat H]

All good points, Mr. Bruxley.

It's important to know that while Blackwater is ostensibly a private organization, they in fact almost completely rely on employment by governments. Those reasons vary, but most, in my opinion, are to skirt laws intended to restrict government activities.

As an example, if I lived in a gated community (I do not, don't like them), and hired Blackwater to provide "intense" security for my community, there's little reason to have issue with that. They'd have to follow the direction of their employers, or be fired.

With employment by the fedgov, and I'm not sure who paid them in New Orleans, who can tell them to "stick it" when needed, since the citizenry isn't their employer, Blackwater refuses to respond.

Who bears responsibility when government hires private security?

 

[Manedwolf]

How so? They use the same weapons that you can use provided you pay the $200 tax stamp. When they are out of the country they use weapons that are legal for use in that country.

Not quite!

I can own a Class III that happened to have been made and registered prior to 1986, and pay $15k-$40k for it. A secondhand gun made over 20 years ago.

If they want to buy a newly made, newly imported full-auto, say, an FN 2000, they'll pay the price it goes for to people able to buy them...$1600 or so.

They can import newly made class III. I cannot. We get to scrabble amongst the surviving crumbs of class III left to the people and pay ten to twenty times the price for it. They get the newest, freshest and best.

 

[theinvisibleheart]

DonR,

DonR,

1. two factors of pay: human capital(that is in demand) and risk

The premium you get for human capital is much higher than the premium for physical risk or hazard. You see it in all sorts of occupation from taxi cab driver (more dangerous than LEO work), high rise construction workers, etc.

Simply put, people got paid much, much more for having higher human capital (which is in demand) than for taking physical risk.

2. predisposition to take risk

It doesn't make sense for engineers/attorneys/doctors(people with high human capital) to take physical risk.

If John have the choice b/w making $100,000 a year with zero risk as an engineer and $100,000 a year as a contractor with physical risk, which job should John take?

Especially, when he can make the same amount of money as an engineer, work close to his family and lead a normal family?

Not only that, career span of an occupation with high human capital such as engineer/attorney/doctor is much, much longer than that of a contractor.

I've actually known people who became contractors. They became contractors because the pay from alternative job opportunities was fraction of what they can make as a contractor. Why? Because of low human capital.

3. historical evidences

Before the advent of all volunteer armed services prevalent today, engineers, doctors, attorneys, and other people with high human capital did serve in the military temporarily as combat soldiers with distinction.

Major Charles White Whittlesey of the Lost Battalion fame (Argonne Forest, WWI) who was awarded Congressional Medal of Honor was an attorney. However, after the war ended, he went back to working as an attorney at his old law firm in Wall St.

I've also personally known various professional people who have served in US armed services in combat role when draft was in effect.

4. value of gov provided training

there is an extremely large body of people who have had military training so the value of military training in terms of scarcity is very low. Not only that, in just about anything, a private organization can provide the same level of training and other services in less time and for less amount of money.

This has being proven over and over again from something as basic as road building to education to various facets of privatization of military that is going on today.


So if you add points 1 to 4, it doesn't make sense to me why a contractor should be paid as much or more than an engineer or other professionals. The only reason I can think of is lack of competition. Competition is likely to increase. This is supported by reports such as contractors being hired from Third World at fraction of what US contractors are being paid for.


DonR>>>
I understand all of that. The point you apparently aren't getting is that the FFL and Ghurkas are part of an established military, run by a government. PMCs are privately owned and much smaller. They have the luxury of only accepting who they want with the skill set they want. When BW hires someone they have to conduct maintenance training. When the FFL or Ghurkas hire someone they have to conduct initial training. Since most of BW employees have received similar, nearly the same if not the same initial training while in the U.S. military it cuts down on training costs and that money can be used to pay higher wages.
Nobody ever said contractors were smarter than an engineer. If you want to build a bridge hire an engineer. If you need security hire a security company. Would you rather have an armed group of engineers for a security detail or and armed groups of security professionals? I know which one I'd choose.

BTW: How many engineers put their butts in life threatening situations as part of their job?

 

[DonR101395]

I would like to own one of the new safe/semi/burst M-4s they carry. Or the frag grenades, even a couple flash/bangs. Even an up-armored Humvee w/ mounted M-249. You claim all I need is the $200 stamp eh. Please, this is a firearms forum, we all know better. Have to find a willing seller of a PREBAN, not new, Class III weapon.

For the newer stuff pay the $1500 special occupation tax a year and you can buy all of that stuff. Or start your own company and get a government security contract and have the weapon requirements written in to it. The weapons they have are contingent upon contracts with U.S. Government agencies. The individual employees don't get to take home an M240.

As for how they have military-like power, I believe I would be quickly subdued and arrested, if not killed, if I were to take a team to Baghdad and start hunting down and killing insurgents. Or forming armed cavalcades to escort arms or personnel through downtown toward Tikrit.

It depends on if you have a contract to be there. What is your authority to be there? They are there under contract from our government as well as the Iraqi government. Go through the correct process and you to can roam the streets armed in a convoy.

And what level of authority were they granted to go into New Orleans in armed squads enforcing law while other civilians were having their legally owned weapons confiscated by force? Sounds like a National Guard (military) authority.

Once again, what is your proof that Blackwater confiscated anything? All of the reports and footage I've seen have shown the National Guard and Law Enforcement confiscating guns.

As for who I think these men are, they are US military veterans that by and large accepted jobs with BlackWater in lieu of re-enlisting due to better compensation and less entanglement. Patriots I'm sure, but money has been known to buy loyalty and power can seduce even more.

Good point, but it hasn't been proved, when have they taken over the country?

The 2 responsibilities that I feel should NEVER be privatized are law enforcement and the US military. These 2 entities need to be held strongly in check by the people via our elected representatives. A career contracting officer and the threat of breech of contract are not satisfactory. DIRECT Congressional/Municipal oversight and authority or no deal.

I'll agree with you on that point to a degree. I do know that the oversight does get in the way on completing the job. Sometimes that is good, many times it's nothing more than political hacks with their own ax to grind. The end user always pays.

 

[DonR101395]

So if you add points 1 to 4, it doesn't make sense to me why a contractor should be paid as much or more than an engineer or other professionals. The only reason I can think of is lack of competition. Competition is likely to increase. This is supported by reports such as contractors being hired from Third World at fraction of what US contractors are being paid for.

Since this summarizes your post I'll only quote it.

What I take out of this is that you believe someone is worthy of a high paying job if they have a professional degree. It's free enterprise. Something is only worth as much as people are willing to pay. Currently they are willing to pay $550 a day. Next year who knows, maybe it's $350, maybe it goes back up to $1500. Like you said competition is why the pay is high as well as the danger the job entails. The daily pay rate has dropped about 60% over the last 3-4 years because the available personel to fill the positions has increased.

 

[Bruxley]

The 2 responsibilities that I feel should NEVER be privatized are law enforcement and the US military. These 2 entities need to be held strongly in check by the people via our elected representatives. A career contracting officer and the threat of breech of contract are not satisfactory. DIRECT Congressional/Municipal oversight and authority or no deal.

I'll agree with you on that point to a degree. I do know that the oversight does get in the way on completing the job. Sometimes that is good, many times it's nothing more than political hacks with their own ax to grind. The end user always pays.

emphasis mine

You not only agreed, but you proved (see emphasis) the attitude that makes such contacting dangerous. This also showed the mindset the monster actually has. The 'job' and being paid are the primaries, oversight is only worthwhile if the monster doesn't feel it is just a political hack with an axe to grind. I think his constituency gets to make that judgment not the subordinate entity subject to said oversight.

Who decides that this insubordination doesn't get you an article 13 and civilian clothes? OOPS....No UCMJ.....just a pesky breach of contract suit that the monster may also feel is stepping on the toes. And thus begins the turning.

PROOF seems to be the word of choice. Not denial, "prove it" is right up there with "not to my knowledge" as indicators of impropriety.

You have agreed that LE and Armed Forces activities should not be contracted. And you have inadvertently illustrated why.

BlackWater needs to finish it's existing contractual obligation and be left to the market of private security for private entities.

 

[DonR101395]

You not only agreed, but you proved (see emphasis) the attitude that makes such contacting dangerous. This also showed the mindset the monster actually has. The 'job' and being paid are the primaries, oversight is only worthwhile if the monster doesn't feel it is just a political hack with an axe to grind. I think his constituency gets to make that judgment not the subordinate entity subject to said oversight.

Clearly we are speaking different languages. By job I mean mission at hand. His constituency may be happy that their state received a contract to build sub standard equipment, but I assure you the end user pays for that happiness in blood and sometimes simply money out of their own pocket for gear that isn't junk.

Who decides that this insubordination doesn't get you an article 13 and civilian clothes? OOPS....No UCMJ.....just a pesky breach of contract suit that the monster may also feel is stepping on the toes.

As of last October the contractors fall under the UCMJ. And it an Article 15 non-judicial punishment.

PROOF seems to be the word of choice. Not denial, "prove it" is right up there with "not to my knowledge" as indicators of impropriety.

Unwillingness to provide proof of allegations are indications of not being truthful or simply repeating rumors that have no basis in truth.

You have agreed that LE and Armed Forces activities should not be contracted. And you have inadvertently illustrated why.

I said I agree to a point. Right up to the point that that oversight becomes a lumbering obstacle that only has an interest in their own political agenda. At that point I sometimes believe that private enterprise has many advantages, but must be used in accordance with the law. I'm not arguing that it's impossible for someone to go outside the law or think they are above the law. It happens everyday in every industry in the country, particularly in your beloved professional industries such as engineering firms, law firms, hospitals etc.

BlackWater needs to finish it's existing contractual obligation and be left to the market of private security for private entities.

That is exactly what they are doing. The government takes bids on contract for security, they bid, they win some, they lose some. Most of the contracts they have are with the state department not the dod. The state department has always has contract security for various places in addition to DSS. There just simply aren't enough DSS agents or the money, facilities etc to train and equip the required amount. It's simply cheaper to pay a private company for the man power.

 

[Fremmer]

Anybody know the story (there has to be one) behind the name "Blackwater"?

 

[theinvisibleheart]

DonR,

DonR,

1. there are 2 ways to view pay. One is at micro level (microeconomics) and the other at macro level (macroeconomics).

At micro level, my understanding is that

wage is a function of elasticity of demand for the particular labor skill set, available supply of that workers possessing that particular labor skill set, and barrier to entry and cost of acquiring of that skill set

2. a degree is not necessary to acquiring a high pay and in some instances, may be a barrier to it. If my memory of payoff from education is correct, I believe the marginal value of formal education is at its highest at master's level, not PhD.

3. Consider 2 successful engineers: Steve Wozniak who co-founded Apple with Jobs and at the time, didn't have any degree, and Bill Gates who started Microsoft w/o any degree.

So obviously the belief that a professional degree is a requirement for a high pay or engineering success cannot be correct.

4. you want to maximize competition. This forces that field to be merit driven, maximizing value for the consumers.

The predisposition to take risk at lower pay is higher in other countries than in developed countries like U.S. This is due to lack of economic alternatives.

To somebody in Columbia, working in Iraq as a defense contractor, guarding supply convoy for a commercial company for $100/day might be an unimaginable opportunity in his home country.

--John


DonR101395>>>

Quote:
So if you add points 1 to 4, it doesn't make sense to me why a contractor should be paid as much or more than an engineer or other professionals. The only reason I can think of is lack of competition. Competition is likely to increase. This is supported by reports such as contractors being hired from Third World at fraction of what US contractors are being paid for.
Since this summarizes your post I'll only quote it.

What I take out of this is that you believe someone is worthy of a high paying job if they have a professional degree. It's free enterprise. Something is only worth as much as people are willing to pay. Currently they are willing to pay $550 a day. Next year who knows, maybe it's $350, maybe it goes back up to $1500. Like you said competition is why the pay is high as well as the danger the job entails. The daily pay rate has dropped about 60% over the last 3-4 years because the available personel to fill the positions has increased.

 

[theinvisibleheart]

Blackwater and old trend

The trend is towards more privatization of military and police. This trend dates back to early 1980s when studies found out tasks can be done more efficiently at lower cost by private parties rather than the government.

Who knows, one day, there might be a private contractor's school which is more cost and time efficient than the training provided by US armed services.

I think in the future, there will be more and more organizations like BW, providing more accountability.

Best way to provide accountability is not by supporting government monopoly via government only post office, police, army, etc. but via competition.

--John

 

[Bruxley]

Clearly we are speaking different languages. By job I mean mission at hand. His constituency may be happy that their state received a contract to build sub standard equipment, but I assure you the end user pays for that happiness in blood and sometimes simply money out of their own pocket for gear that isn't junk.

We are speaking the same language. the quotation marks around 'job' were to accent the attitude about killing for money rather then service to country. Which is the heart of the dilemma. Contacting security means hired gun. Kill on our behalf as necessary for payment.

This, not 'sub-standard equipment' vs. 'gear that isn't junk' , is WHY very careful oversight is mandatory. Answering with your career, freedom (Leavenworth), or very life as a Commissioned Officer does for every life subordinate to him to the chain of command. That chain being topped by elected, civilian authority. Not by a contracting officer.

Contrast that responsibility to the attitude of private security:

I said I agree to a point. Right up to the point that that oversight becomes a lumbering obstacle that only has an interest in their own political agenda. At that point I sometimes believe that private enterprise has many advantages, but must be used in accordance with the law.

That civilian politician represents the People of his/her State. Suffering their oversight is the obligation, not lumbering obstacle, that keeps the military in check so that they are acting in service to country not in self willed aggression.

You repeatedly show contempt for Congressional oversight. It is supposed to be politically driven picking apart and holding accountable for every action. This lumbering and tedious process is what keeps folks in line. Your contempt for it is precisely why this work should never be contracted.

Call the office and tell em' to send in a new rep. Your making the oppositions case for them and have underestimated the pool of participants.

Bottom line, when I see military aircraft flying over I feel safer. If that were a PRIVATE contractor I would feel disconcerted because the military pilot doesn't get paid enough to fire on fellow Americans or think they will be rewarded by anything other then a court marshal followed by a life time of making big rocks into little ones. He does his job for service to country and the protection of fellow Americans not personal gain. With a private contractor I don't feel they would have the same misgivings. Your comments have affirmed that feeling.

EDIT to add: Describe for us all BWs chain of command.

 

[Bruxley]

theinvisibleheart, Schools are already subject to private competition, they are called 'Charter Schools' here. And the government monopoly post office, ever heard of UPS, FedEx, and DHL?

The problem with privatizing law enforcement and the military is the projection of force. Private militarys competing for that one customer would each have to have the capacity to project force. That situation is what exists in many middle eastern and African countries. He who can project force the best makes the rules. Same premise to a lesser degree with law enforcement on the local level.

 

[DonR101395]

The trend is towards more privatization of military and police. This trend dates back to early 1980s when studies found out tasks can be done more efficiently at lower cost by private parties rather than the government.

Who knows, one day, there might be a private contractor's school which is more cost and time efficient than the training provided by US armed services.

I think in the future, there will be more and more organizations like BW, providing more accountability.

Best way to provide accountability is not by supporting government monopoly via government only post office, police, army, etc. but via competition.

Agreed, I don't think the industry will last forever. I also don't think it's perfect. I do believe it's the best possible solution at the moment. I'm not disagreeing that it needs oversight. I'm simply disagreeing on who and how much oversight it needs. Competition is is good no matter what the commodity.

 

[hottbarrell]

Thumbs up

These men put there lives on the line so we can go about our daily lives as free men. However,if ever they are used in any capacity stateside,it is our jobs as citizens to keep a wary eye,monitoring there actions.

 

[DonR101395]

We are speaking the same language. the quotation marks around 'job' were to accent the attitude about killing for money rather then service to country. Which is the heart of the dilemma. Contacting security means hired gun. Kill on our behalf as necessary for payment.

They are providing security overseas and defending a client. They are bodyguards. They wouldn't be much use as bodyguards if they let their client be killed or kidnapped when they come under fire.
Exactly who did they kill in NOLA?

This, not 'sub-standard equipment' vs. 'gear that isn't junk' , is WHY very careful oversight is mandatory. Answering with your career, freedom (Leavenworth), or very life as a Commissioned Officer does for every life subordinate to him to the chain of command. That chain being topped by elected, civilian authority. Not by a contracting officer.

And those civilians at the top continually make decisions based on their personal agenda to provide money in their district instead of what is truly needed. Contempt for the system. You bet I've got contempt for politicos. I've seen first hand too many bad decisions that were based on nothing more than their personal agenda.
My apologies for dragging us off topic.

 

[DonR101395]

Discribe for us all BWs chain of command.

From my understanding after being there and talking with employees.

team members answer to the team leader, the team leader answers to the project manager, the project manager answers to the contract employer and the company manager.

In the case where they have multiple teams the team leaders answer to an intermediate manager who answers to the project manager.

Also as of Oct 2006 they also fall under the UCMJ while working for the U.S. govt. Which to me makes no sense since they are usually contract through the DOS or DOJ not the DOD. But that was the answer when more oversight was demanded.

 

[Bruxley]

The effort to categorize the military as an 'industry' or 'commodity' is perverse. They are the projection of force of the United States, not a business enterprise.

As for stateside, I believe WE ALL are responsible there. Hello, the 2nd amendment and the word 'militia'. I'll be damned if a private contractor is going to assert any authority over me or mine.

 

[DonR101395]

The effort to categorize the military as an 'industry' or 'commodity' is perverse. They are the projection of force of the United States, not a business enterprise.

Shocking as it may be, we agree on that point.

As for stateside, I believe WE ALL are responsible there. Hello, the 2nd amendment and the word 'militia'. I'll be damned if a private contractor is going to assert any authority over me or mine.

The only advice I can give is make sure you know if they are deputized, know what authority the local govt. has empowered them with and make sure your affairs are in order. And we still agree they have no business entering your home or property uninvited.

Edit we also agree on the 2nd amendment.

 

[Aikibiker]

Well I guess I will respond to this thread since I happen to be a security contractor working in the middle east. Disclaimer; I do not work for Blackwater, nor am I working in Iraq or Afghanistan. I will decline to say who I am working for or where I am for obvious security reasons. If you don't believe a word I type here because of that, that is fine however as much as possible I will give correct information on the world of contracting. First a little about what I do: I work as force protection on a US military base. I am basically a rentacop. I check ID's, I search vehicles for contraband and IEDs, and I ensure no one climbs the fence.

First off there are a whole lot of misconceptions in this thread from folks that really don't know what they are talking about.

First BW did not confiscate guns in NOLA, nor did they act as Law Enforcement. I have a friend that worked for them there. BW did two jobs down there. First they escorted people whose homes had been destroyed past the mobs of looters and chaos to attempt to salvage what they could of their property. Second they acted as security guards at government facilites protecting rescue workers from those same looters and assorted criminals so that the .gov officials could do their job of trying to help people put their lives back together. Someone asked who exactly BW killed in NOLA. To the best of my knowlege the only use of lethal force by BW employees in NOLA was a case where one employee was shot and killed by a looter armed with a rifle stolen from a walmart. His fellow employees returned fire and killed the badguy. At the time the BW employees where walking through a parking lot.

Second, accountability and use of force; Contractors working in conflict zones (IE: places where there is actual shooting going on) fall under the UCMJ contractors in Iraq are not subject to local laws because the local judicial and LEO system is incredibly corrupt and cannot be trusted with Americans. Contractors working in non-conflict areas fall under MEJA which is basically the Military's ability to enforce US law on US citizens overseas. If I commit a crime while I am on base I will be arrested by US military police and turned over to the US Marshall's office for repatriation to the US. If I commit a crime out in town I am subject to the local laws and the US governent will let me hang, literally, just ask the former KBR employee hung in Kuwait recently for running a methlab. While I am armed and have authority to use lethal force, it is under a very narrow set of circumstances that are actually much more stringent then for US military forces in the theatre. We actually had problems while in training in use of force with a military trainer because we were not using our weapons when he thought we should even though we were following the ROE that applies to us.

Authority; my authority derives from AR 190-56, para 5-2. This document sets the limitations and powers of contract security guards on US military installations. While working one of the few assignments that might take us off post or traveling between one installation in country and another our actions fall under a bunch of unwritten rules and accepted practices with the host nation. There is no formal agreement and things can change at any time. Kinda makes the job fun.

Weapons; the weapons we use on the job are provided by the US military. We are not allowed to have any weapon not issued to us. If we are caught on base with an unissued weapon it is hello Mr. US Marshall time. If we have a one off base we get our necks stretched by the local authorities. BW's weapons fall into two distinct categories. What they use stateside and what they use over seas. For overseas work they have a bonded warehouse containing all their goodies. Those weapons cannot be removed from the warehouse unless the are being put directly on a plane or boat and leaving the United States. Here at home BW has various post sample weapons they use in their training classes that they have due to their partnerships with the manufacturers. All NFA rules apply to these weapons and if you want some of your own go become a SOT just like BW did or like a few of the members here on TFL. During the NOLA business I am not sure where their weapons came from. My friend that was down there said he was only issued a Glock for a while, but was finally able to talk one of the higher-ups into getting him an M4. No word on whether or not the rifle he was issued had the happy switch or was a regular old semi only like you or I would have in our closet. I have heard of BW folks over there guarding power relay stations with pump action shotguns. The impression I got was they really had to scramble to supply their people since the situation developed so fast. They were even allowing folks to bring their own weapons if they wanted to, which is unheard of in this business, but the fact that the job was in the US with no issues about taking firearms accross international borders may have played into that.

Loyalty; First off let me say this: There is not enough money in the world to induce me to infringe upon the rights of my fellow citizens. I am first and formost a patriot and I deeply love my country. The insinuation made by some that I would gladly act as a jackbooted thug trampling on the constitutional rights of citizens is quite frankly very insulting. Most of my fellow contractors are of a similar mindset. We love our country and it's institutions regardless of who actually gives us our paycheck. Certainly a few of us are only in this business for the money, but that is a very small percentage. Yes the money is a great inducement to me to put up with working 12 hours shifts on an unairconditioned post in 120 degree heat, but the reason I got on that plane was because I wanted to make a difference and help out what I see as a just cause and a fight for our way of life and Western Civalization against people that would like to see the word plunged into a new dark age.

Hopefully I have shed a little light on the subject. If anyone has any more questions or if I missed anything please PM me and i will respond both to the PM and in this thread. Please understand that due to the long hours I work and lack of free time I have that a response may take a few days.