Blackwater...

[The Tourist]

(Blackwater fascinates me...)

Things that are a bit dark and cutting edge always fascinate people. Look at the cash cow of James Bond movies.

The problem is when you strip off the glitz. There's this old saying, usually attributed to over protective mothers, "It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye..."

Look at how Hunter S. Thompson wrote about bikers, almost with a romantic flare. Then they kicked his azz for sticking his nose where it didn't belong. I believe he then referred to the movement as "thugs."

The romantic world of 'mercenaries' and bad boys is akin to Scharzenegger movies. That is until you realize that you have to kill someone simply because your boss says so. Good, bad or indifferent, there are no checks or balances.

Here's a thought. I am a mercenary. So are you. There's absolutely no reason that you and I cannot accept money for blood.

In fact, The Constitution clearly enumerates something called "Letters of Marque."

In simpler terms, a hitman is a paid mercenary.

 

[Aikibiker]

Yes any use of force must be well documented not only with the company, but with the Provost Marshal's office. Any of you military guys will be familiar with a sworn statement and how much of a joy they are to fill out. As for having a reason to report a use of force how about so people don't start asking questions when I go to turn in my ammo at the end of the shift and I am short a couple rounds?

Really ther eis a whole lot of oversight and control on us. Not only do we answer to whatever agency holds the contract (I.E. the military or Dept. of State) but we also answer to our company. So that is actually an extra layer of accountability over and beyond what a soldier would have in the same job.

 

[The Tourist]

Yes any use of force must be well documented

This is the crux of the debate. Since any employee of a corporation serves at the pleasure of his employer, I have only the word of the company that the records are accurate or even true.

To that end, I must also trust the integrity of the Armed Services for investigation and Courts Martial for wrong doing.

But let's be very honest here. Why would I implicate myself and lose my job? Even I can buy FMJ 7.62x51 NATO ammo and I've never been a soldier. I could easily CYA a shooting.

It comes down to this. Is the man a soldier or a merc? Now here I can be a witness. When I work for a soldier who is about to be deployed, I have never had one scintilla of doubt in character.

In fact, most embarrass me in class and distinction.

 

[Yellowfin]

The aspect of this that I find interesting and curious is that our military has done little to protect the Constitution from internal enemies which have been attacking us from within for decades. We fight abroad to avoid being inslaved, but when Massachusetts or California does the same things we kill outside threats over, we do nothing and say little. Doesn't anyone take a minute and say "Hold on a second, this is our job to stop stuff like this" ?

 

[gordo_gun_guy]

The Swiss Armed Forces is comprised of both a standing army and militia. Not having a standing army would be the worst thing that could happen to this country IMHO.

Sadly, technology has progressed to the point where a standing military is necessary, but maybe not to the degree we have now. Indistrialized warfare requires a lot more organization and specialization to work. I think communities could put together passable light infantry militias, but I don't think we could get the variety of specialties needed in sufficient numbers for space/nuke/air/armor in a timely manner; we need some professional cadre.

The Swiss: My wife had a Swiss exchange student as a roomate one summer in college. She told me something I hadn't considered: regardless of whether they believe in keeping the Swiss militia, Swiss dudes always try to do a good jobin the service. (And many kids in her generation don't believe compulsory service should continue:barf At any rate, she said that performance in their militia drills effects performance on the job. In other words, if you're a s__tbag during drill, your boss will think of you as such at work. Likewise, if you're the model soldier and perform NCO or officer duties in the militia, you'll be steered towards corporate leadership roles, too. (This goes on in the states, too: there are a number of executive headhunter firms that only recruit from the military.) Well, that's what I heard a decade ago from a 23 y.o. girl with lots of piercings, purple highlights, and a penchant for Yankee bashing; YMMV.

 

[DonR101395]

The aspect of this that I find interesting and curious is that our military has done little to protect the Constitution from internal enemies which have been attacking us from within for decades. We fight abroad to avoid being inslaved, but when Massachusetts or California does the same things we kill outside threats over, we do nothing and say little. Doesn't anyone take a minute and say "Hold on a second, this is our job to stop stuff like this" ?

Simply put this is a law enforcement job. Posse Comitatus puts several restrictions on what the military can or can't do within the United States.

 

[DonR101395]

This is the crux of the debate. Since any employee of a corporation serves at the pleasure of his employer, I have only the word of the company that the records are accurate or even true.

You're not the only one at the scene. There are always witnesses to everything you do. Using that train of thought a soldier could do the same thing. It's about ethics and playing by the rules. Someone who wants to cover up things like this won't last long in the military or in any other job of responsibility such as a security contractor. One thing I always tell my guys is to fess up to any mistakes they make. A mistake can be overcome. Lying can't be overcome. Nobody will ever trust you or want to work with you again.

To that end, I must also trust the integrity of the Armed Services for investigation and Courts Martial for wrong doing.

Very true, the same people are investigating both entities.

But let's be very honest here. Why would I implicate myself and lose my job? Even I can buy FMJ 7.62x51 NATO ammo and I've never been a soldier. I could easily CYA a shooting.

Not as easy as you would think. Remember you team mates there with you. There will always be a witness.

It comes down to this. Is the man a soldier or a merc? Now here I can be a witness. When I work for a soldier who is about to be deployed, I have never had one scintilla of doubt in character.

And that is the pool of people the contractors are being drawn from. Nobody wants to work with a scumbag.

In fact, most embarrass me in class and distinction.

That warms my heart. Seriously it does, since many get a bad rep for simply being what they are.

 

[Yellowfin]

Simply put this is a law enforcement job. Posse Comitatus puts several restrictions on what the military can or can't do within the United States.

I was referring to those wearing pinstriped suits in legislatures, not striped uniforms in prison, though the only difference between the two is in the means with which they pillage and destroy. However, curtailing the former would indeed fall under the category of enforcement of the laws, yet strangely those who are charged with doing so spend little to no time in such capacity.

 

[Aikibiker]

But let's be very honest here. Why would I implicate myself and lose my job? Even I can buy FMJ 7.62x51 NATO ammo and I've never been a soldier. I could easily CYA a shooting.

Actually it would be rather difficult for me to aquire ammo I have not been issued on a US military base overseas. The US military falls somewhere to the far far left of Illinois on the issue of firearms. They are incredibly controlling of arms and ammunition. It isn't like I can walk into the PX and buy some. And just try getting an online ammo store to ship to an APO, or if they will try explaining your order to the nice MPs that show up to talk to you after they X-ray your package like they do every other piece of mail.

You could always walk down to the local souk in Baghdad if you want some ammo. Of course all they will have is warsaw pact stuff and you might just end up on an Al Qaeda head cutting video on the internet.

 

[ArjunaRhy]

militias

I can see here alot of guys in real military and security jobs and scenarios. But what are all your views on actually home based private militias (not the underdeveloped underfunded "state" governonrs militias) I mean you guys specialize in security and weapons preparedness and such, do you guys not organize stuff here at home because of your ideologies or what?

 

[Al Norris]

ArjunaRhy, the validity of private militias is another topic altogether. If you wish to discuss such, please open a new thread on that topic.

 

[Yellowfin]

They have considerably use in the fact that they can be used to achieve what is necessary but politically unpalatable. For that I hope they get busier!

 

[Pat H]

They have considerably use in the fact that they can be used to achieve what is necessary but politically unpalatable. For that I hope they get busier!

Are you stating that Blackwater, essentially a private army employed almost solely by the US government, is being used for unlawful purposes, purposes for which you are an advocate?

 

[Aikibiker]

I can see here alot of guys in real military and security jobs and scenarios. But what are all your views on actually home based private militias (not the underdeveloped underfunded "state" governonrs militias) I mean you guys specialize in security and weapons preparedness and such, do you guys not organize stuff here at home because of your ideologies or what?

I have practiced disaster preparedness all my life (literally learned it on my mother's knee) I feel having firearms and the willingness to band together with your neighbors in times of crisis like several groups of people did during the whole Katrina mess to be part of civic responsibility.

For actually organizing I think the guys over at www.zombiehunters.org have the right idea on how to go about it. They try to make disaster preparedness fun and all inclusive not just of the 2nd Amendment aspects but the actual means of survival as well. They are getting some good press for their work locally and some of their members were even featured in the book "Armed America".

 

[Epyon]

Started reading...

The book Blackwater by Jeremy Scahill. The more I learn about Erik Prince the more inclined I am to detest this private army. What if he and his powerful cohorts decide that it's time for Christian theocracy and therefore we live in Americstan? I can see how mercenary groups can work, but at the same time if they are given too much power it is a threat to national security.

Epyon


EDIT: Aikibiker, "Armed America" is that the photo book showing people of differen walks of life who own guns? I love that book.

 

[Aikibiker]

I am about 1/3 of the way through Mr. Scahill's book at the moment. For some reason he makes mention on every page the fact that Mr. Prince is a Christian with strong beliefs. Mr. Scahill's other great problem with Mr. Prince which is mentioned in the same breath as his faith is the fact he is a conservative. I am lucky enough to have good friends and family accross the political spectrum and just because I happen to disagree with the political theories of some of my friends that are old school hippy anti war protestors doesn't mean I dislike or do not respect them or them me.

What's more he mentions it as a negative. Since when did faith in God become a bad thing. I would think you would want a man with that much power (both political and economic) to have a deeply rooted moral center. I wish more public figures in our country were Christian.

Why would Christians want to impose a theocracy? This seems to be a new liberal theme. The Christians are going to make us go to Church everyday or some such foolishness. Really that is just to silly for words.

Epyon,

The thing that will keep some group from setting up a totalitarian form of Governemnt in the US in the future is the same thing that has kept it from happening in the past. The Second Amendment and the determination of the citizens of this country. And if it were to happen, a whole lot of contractors would be fighting on the side of freedom. [humor]Heck I might even give any TFL'ers I ran into a discount.[/humor]

Yeah that's the book. Some of the St. Louis area ZS members actually allowed the author to stay with them while he was traveling around putting it together and were included in the book.

 

[Yellowfin]

Are you stating that Blackwater, essentially a private army employed almost solely by the US government, is being used for unlawful purposes, purposes for which you are an advocate?

No. I am saying that they can be potentially employed for purposes which may be lawful or close enough but not politically convenient for elected politicians to directly claim responsibility for and/or even acknowledge. Stuff you don't need to tell the kids about because they react badly. The current war we have right now is a clear illustration of what happens when you let the peanut gallery do too much backseat driving. Not saying that I think that Blackwater IS currently being thus employed, but that they could be, and yes I think that is worth advocating.

 

[Epyon]

Aikibiker...

I don't have problems with people having religion, I do have a problem when people use religion to gain political power, or use it as a beating stick on others because they are the minority. If this is a nation where everyone should be equal, one religious majority doesn't have the right to say what is moral and what isn't. You can't legislate morality. Look at prohibition and the current war on drugs, it was fueled by religion and racism and they both fail. Add to the fact that if a person of power does mix religion, they will use it as an excuse to commit whatever crimes they wish and have the backing of whatever religious majority keeps them in power. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" I would think that clause in the 1st Amendment means that Congress should stay completely neutral to religion. If we allow prayer in schools then is it okay if an Islamic student prays five times a day? Is it okay for the Wiccan to practice magick in class? On an ending note, you don't have to have religion to have a deeply rooted moral center.


Epyon

P.S: If you read history Christians have done their share of atrocities, but then again all religions have their share of bad things they've done.

 

[Aikibiker]

Yeah but when has Mr. Prince or Blackwater used religion to get what they want or tried to force religion on anyone. I have applied for jobs with them and talked to their recruiters and the only subjects that came up were my qualifications for the job and what size armor I wear. I ended up not working for them, but that was more to do with not having enough experience to meet the provisions of their contract with the US government then any conspiracy to only hire Catholics or Methodists or whatever.

Heck I didn't even know the guy was a Christian until I read about it in Mr. Scahill's book. Mr. Scahill went into quite a bit of depth describing the religious background of Mr. Prince and his family and how much money they have given to various charities. All of this came from an obvious hit piece on Blackwater, I have never seen one thing from that company about what God I should worship or how anyone should live their life. How did BW use religion to gain political power?

Just because someone is a Christian and give money to Christian charities is no reason to assume they want to make you be a Christian as well. While I am sure most Christians would prefer for the non-believers to find Christ I doubt they are going to try and force conversions on anyone at this time in history. [humor]Maybe back in the 17th century, but that was at least 50 years ago.[/humor]

 

[Al Norris]

Gentlemen, I commend everyone for keeping this thread on track and civil. It's a very good thread in that respect.

However, with the new input, let's tread carefully. The issue is not religion over all, nor is it about Christianity in the specific... Except as it applies to the founder of Blackwater. Let's keep the topic there and not thrust the topic into the jungle.