Blackwater...

AFAIK, the contractors were not required to report incidents in the conflict zones. Did that change?

And what incentive would they have to report an incident if they didn't take any casualties?


Do you think their is an investigation every time a soldier discharges his weapon? They do an after action report, just like the military does one. It protects them the same as it does the military when questions come up there are documented statements about what happened. You obviously have no idea about either the military or the security business. Why do you insist on arguing points that you are obviously not very knowledgeable about?


Edit: Another incentive would be ammo resupply. Employers like to know where their money is going.
 
Glad the engineer bashing stopped....

I feel the PMCs are a mixed bag. On the plus side, they improve the compensation of military members in certain combat jobs. Posters have mentioned the brain-drain PMCs place on the military, and how competition has lowered PMC salaries. Don't forget, the same competition for these elite military trained folks has forced the military to increase bonuses and incentives for those who continue to serve without selling out to a PMC. (And I feel these uniformed folks deserve it.)

I have less of a problem with the alleged use of BW in shady dealings overseas, than with some more inocuous uses of contractors stateside. After all, it wasn't a core competency for the majority of our conventional forces to be cops/foreign internal defense/counter insurgency operators/etc. That's the baliwic of Green Berets/MPs/psy ops folks; folks that are a small part of our military and were absolutly tapped out by fighting a "low intensity conflict" on this scale. If we had to resort to contractors to retain enough manpower in these specialties, that speaks ill of our force structuring or our method of pursuing the current conflict, not on the contactors themselves.

When ordinary Joes started carrying zip ties--i.e. when they became poorly trained cops instead of highly trained Soldiers--is when I stopped caring if bring contractors to the fight.

So my beef with contractors: under the guise of increasing tooth to tail ratio and investing in future technology, the military has been steadily cutting uniformed jobs in personnel, administration, finance, services, stateside security, etc and replacing them with a mix of contractors and DOD civilians. These folks are ostensibly cheaper, because the aren't entitled to a retirement after 20 and free helath care, etc. But neither can they be deployed overseas against their will and they haven't sworn an oath. Conflicts exist whenever they are supervised by or supervise, military members. Well, I'm not going to go on, since this thread is about BW....

BTW, what's with all the bashing of engineers as a "safe" job? That was my civilian career, and it came with it's share of dangers from industrial chemicals, explosive hazards, wayward industrial robots, 75 amp unshieded bus bars, etc. In fact, it took a few years and a few deployments before the cumulative dangers of my military career caught up. Hell, Russian cicil engineers had to stand under their bridges when the first train rolled overhead. I guess Minesota jokes would be in poor taste here....
 
You obviously have no idea about either the military or the security business. Why do you insist on arguing points that you are obviously not very knowledgeable about?

Because it became personal the moment there were private mercenaries operating in coordinated groups, carrying select-fire weapons, given open license to "patrol" the public streets of a city in the United States during peacetime.

That is a threat to my rights and liberty, and I want a magnifying glass above those mercenaries' heads every moment of every day as long as that's tolerated...as unconstitutional as it is that they're even allowed to do what they do now.

If Congress saw fit to enact a law or amendment specifically prohibiting mercenaries from ever performing the duties of officers of the peace on public property, if they were only to be used for private security guards on private property, I'd not care so much.

But they've exceeded their safe limits on what they can do, to me. And until they're reined in, they're a danger, they're a reason for other people to be well-armed...and they're to be watched. Closely.

I do not want reassurances as to how nice they are, really, blah blah. I want a federal law or Constitutional amendment specifically prohibiting them from operating in an armed capacity on public property or being used for police duties, rather than limited-to-property security duties within the sovereign borders of the United States.
 
I backtracked on the pic you posted earlier, Maned. You're getting your info from Scahill. Figures. Do some research on this guy. Knowing you, this is not the type of individual you want to be quoting.

BTW, that "Blackwater Mercenary" you pictured is wearing a badge. You might want to vet your info a little better.

I say again, there are people on the Blackwater payroll that are some of the best citizens our country is capable of producing.
 
Gordo,
My apologies if you felt I was bashing engineers. They just happened to be the example set forth by someone else.
I have no issues with engineers as individuals or as a whole in armed groups:D



Because it became personal the moment there were private mercenaries operating in coordinated groups, carrying select-fire weapons, given open license to "patrol" the public streets of a city in the United States during peacetime.

Once again, what is your evidence of patroling U.S. streets with select fire weapons? I've trained at Blackwater three times over the last 12 months for a week at a time. I've had instructors who were both solely training instructors as well as assistant instructors who were contractors taking a break from deployment. None of them had select fire weapons even though my team did did. I would say that if they had as easy access to NFA weapons as you say they do, they wouldn't be borrowing my weapon to demonstrate a particular technique they want to cover; they would just bring one out from under their bed.

That is a threat to my rights and liberty, and I want a magnifying glass above those mercenaries' heads every moment of every day as long as that's tolerated...as unconstitutional as it is that they're even allowed to do what they do now.

Once again, how is being hired to conduct security for building and individuals a threat to your rights or unconstitutional? You continually say it is, but you have yet to back your claims up with any verifiable facts.

If Congress saw fit to enact a law or amendment specifically prohibiting mercenaries from ever performing the duties of officers of the peace on public property, if they were only to be used for private security guards on private property, I'd not care so much.

Were you aware that there are many security contractors are also full time law enforcement officers who take a leave of absence from their department to sign contracts with companies? That is beside the point that BW was not contracted to do law enforcement in NOLA. They were hired as security for government buildings and FEMA camps.

But they've exceeded their safe limits on what they can do, to me. And until they're reined in, they're a danger, they're a reason for other people to be well-armed...and they're to be watched. Closely.

Once again, that's your opinion which has no bearing on what they can legally do. As has been pointed out to you already, the websites you are gathering your information from are run by left wing nuts who feed on fear mongering. They seem to be working as intended.

I do not want reassurances as to how nice they are, really, blah blah. I want a federal law or Constitutional amendment specifically prohibiting them from operating in an armed capacity on public property or being used for police duties, rather than limited-to-property security duties within the sovereign borders of the United States.

In regards to the first half of your statement. You understand that you are also asking that the majority of security be taken away from many courthouses, most all federal buildings, many banks etc. Most federal building are already being manned by armed security contractors.
For the second half of your comment. That is exactly how they are being used, as security, they have no arrest powers. They meet armed force with armed force in self defense.
 
I say again, there are people on the Blackwater payroll that are some of the best citizens our country is capable of producing.
I would suspect that a belief in that would depend on where your moral level and ethics lie.

The Iraqi Freedom Fighters have taught we Americans many lessons on how to deal with mercenaries in our midst.

Having mercenaries in America is unsound.
 
The Iraqi Freedom Fighters have taught we Americans many lessons on how to deal with mercenaries in our midst.

Heheh...what? How to die in stacks? You and I have a different idea of appropriate lessons to learn, friend.

They strung up 4 good men (who made a really bad decision) on a bridge in Fallujah...you can cheer that if you want. That debt's been paid a coupla times over, though.
 
Poignantly? Heheh...yeah, kid. I'm sure you're bawling in your kool-aid over my failure to embrace moral relativism.
 
I would suspect that a belief in that would depend on where your moral level and ethics lie.

I take from this that you believe you're morally and ethically superior to a man earning his living protecting others.


The Iraqi Freedom Fighters have taught we Americans many lessons on how to deal with mercenaries in our midst.

Now you are calling an enemy force freedom fighters. Yet you have the audacity to call contractors morally and ethically corrupt. That's precious.

Having mercenaries in America is unsound.

They've always been here. Just because you didn't hear much about them until 2001 doesn't mean they weren't here. The company you seem to have so much heart burn was here in 97. There were many others prior to it dating back from the inception of this country when our fore fathers were fighting for our freedom. So we've been unsound for 231 years in your opinion.


I'm also still waiting for your proof of those you accused of crimes in NOLA to be shown. It's easy to make the claim, how about showing the proof? Something a little more substantiated than a fear mongering left wing blogger with an ax to grind. Please
 
Some input...

Getting kinda ugly in here. As for Iraqi insurgents, like it or not you're on their land, if they want you to leave they have the right to use force. Just as the Native Americans had done in the past in this country. (Talking about Iraqis only, not Al Qaeda or any terrorist group.) Now that I've said that people are probably going to read that statement wrong for whatever reason.


Epyon
 
Getting kinda ugly in here. As for Iraqi insurgents, like it or not you're on their land, if they want you to leave they have the right to use force. Just as the Native Americans had done in the past in this country. (Talking about Iraqis only, not Al Qaeda or any terrorist group.) Now that I've said that people are probably going to read that statement wrong for whatever reason.


Fair enough Epyon, I'll tone it back. I don't want your thread locked for bickering.

I stand by my assessment of the "freedom fighters". We have the blessing of the elected government to operate in the country and they are the ones asking for and receiving protection from the security companies. As such, it doesn't violate their laws.
If it were another country it may. Such as the Philippines which has a constitutional amendment prohibiting foreign troops from engaging in combat operations jointly or unilaterally on their soil, even though they are engaged with Muslim radicals on their islands.
 
And if they want to serve again, they re-up.
My brother-in-law would like nothing better but the current rules say he's out at the end of the year regardless of what he wants.
Having mercenaries in America is unsound.
What is your definition of a mercenary?
 
pardon a newbie post...

DonR101395, I have followed this discussion thread through and through....
I must commend, your carriage of the discussion and arguments are as clear
with logic as they are insightful into very profound reserves of real information.

I urge you to respond to this open ended query question of mine with as much insight as you prefer to give, its all helpful.

You and a number of sympathetic individuals (to your POV) talk with good clarity on meanings of patriotism and good service of men in the armed forces and the security forces all employed by the US.

According to your and others pro you POV; the highest merits of honor and solidarity offered by the responsible and aware citizens of these United States are through Armed Services, where no doubt men offer up their lives in defense of freedom (in this case seemingly religious or constitutional?) and lives of innocent people in the war zones we participate in, is that not so?

IF so, then how do you judge if I say, what If I believe those men are right and they are honorable, but I wouldn't want to fight because I don't want to die or have my family suffer from losing me. Would you say that I am a coward or basically just an immoral man for saying so?
 
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IF so, then how do you judge if I say, what If I believe those men are right and they are honorable, but I wouldn't want to fight because I don't want to die or have my family suffer from losing me. Would you say that I am a coward or basically just an immoral man for saying so?

Which is it? Because you don't want to die or because you dont want your family to suffer?

Are you motivated by fear or duty?
 
Interesting thought...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in accordance to the 2nd Amendment, shouldn't the citizens of this country BE the military? As in no standing army, but everyone is armed to the teeth? Similar to Switzerland.


Epyon
 
"What is your definition of a mercenary?"

"...one that serves merely for wages; especially : a soldier hired into foreign service..."

You know, like when the British hired Hessian soldiers to fight in the Revolutionary War.

Blackwater employees do not qualify as mercenaries.

JT
 
DonR101395, I have followed this discussion thread through and through....
I must commend, your carriage of the discussion and arguments are as clear
with logic as they are insightful into very profound reserves of real information.

I urge you to respond to this open ended query question of mine with as much insight as you prefer to give, its all helpful.

You and a number of sympathetic individuals (to your POV) talk with good clarity on meanings of patriotism and good service of men in the armed forces and the security forces all employed by the US.

According to your and others pro you POV; the highest merits of honor and solidarity offered by the responsible and aware citizens of these United States are through Armed Services, where no doubt men offer up their lives in defense of freedom (in this case seemingly religious or constitutional?) and lives of innocent people in the war zones we participate in, is that not so?

IF so, then how do you judge if I say, what If I believe those men are right and they are honorable, but I wouldn't want to fight because I don't want to die or have my family suffer from losing me. Would you say that I am a coward or basically just an immoral man for saying so?


I see service as a duty. I have friends who have never served for various reasons. I don't think less of them. Not everyone shares my view. I do encourage you to decide if it's out of fear or if it's a concern for family. Everyone has fears that they must overcome. Family will deal with what is put upon them.


Welcome to the board.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in accordance to the 2nd Amendment, shouldn't the citizens of this country BE the military? As in no standing army, but everyone is armed to the teeth? Similar to Switzerland.

The Swiss Armed Forces is comprised of both a standing army and militia. Not having a standing army would be the worst thing that could happen to this country IMHO.
 
DonR101395...

The Swiss Armed Forces is comprised of both a standing army and militia. Not having a standing army would be the worst thing that could happen to this country IMHO.

I agree, I do feel that we should have a standing military, but I do also feel that Americans should be allowed to form militias where private citizens can own full autos. This would fully accomplish what the 2nd Amendment was all about, and add as a protection that government can't push people around.


Epyon
 
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