.25 or a good knife?
- Thread starter WVfishguy
- Start date
Lets take that video as an example. All those who favor the knife, is that what you are going to do, rush someone and gut them? Someone who doesn't have a weapon in their hand. How could you justify that as SD? If they do already have a weapon in their hand, are you going to draw your knife and rush them?
I fully understand that a knife is a very lethal weapon, I know and understand knife tactics and how they can be employed in a 'combat' situation. I just don't see how they are better SD weapons than pistols, even the lowly .25 ACP. From a legal stand point and a reasonable expectation of what a real world defense scenario might look like. In my opinion outside of a combat zone, you would be better off with OC spray or foam than a knife for SD.
I fully understand that a knife is a very lethal weapon, I know and understand knife tactics and how they can be employed in a 'combat' situation. I just don't see how they are better SD weapons than pistols, even the lowly .25 ACP. From a legal stand point and a reasonable expectation of what a real world defense scenario might look like. In my opinion outside of a combat zone, you would be better off with OC spray or foam than a knife for SD.
The Tourist
Moderator
Recon7 said:
All else isn't equal. Consider the tens of thousands of guys who are trained by James Keating and Jerry Vancook.
As for your femoral artery, a jab with any decent knife on the inside of your thigh while you're standing up should find it in lots of cases. As I've said, my SIL is a Red Cross nurse. She informs me that a guy who can stay calm and provide rudimentary care may live another eight minutes. A guy under duress with his heart pumping might pass out in 90 seconds.
And this is the focus of my side of the debate. Don't be smug around knives. This is the land of the free, you can carry anything you wish.
Just get things settled in your mind that there are thousands of guys, people who attack or fight for fun, who don't care about your Daisy air rifle or what you think you can do with a handgun.
Ever hear of "defanging the snake"? A keen edge of a Razel will cut your wrist down to the bone and I doubt your hand will do anything but drop your weapon.
Personally, I feel more comfortable with a knife, for many reasons.
First, Wisconsin has never had a CCW provision, and they might not within my active lifespan. For most of my life, I have relied on a knife.
Second, I have access to knives and edges you do not. I put 600 dollar edges on fifty dollar knives. In fact, I put one on an eight dollar Veff fish fillet knife for a friend. (I have a picture on photobucket if you'd like to see it.)
But the most important factor here is that I have lots of history to rely upon simply because of my age. Most guys don't like to fight guys they don't know. In fact, they don't even like to get their clothes dirty attempting to defend themselves. The idea of guys who fight for fun on a Friday night is foreign. Heck, it's foreign to me and I watched it happen for five years.
According to ER reports, a knife fight is "both cut, at least one drunk." The guy who attacks you with a knife is probably stewed to the gills. He doesn't care about you "knife to a gunfight" joke. And he has experience.
Hunter Thompson wrote this, "A bartender with scar tissue on knuckles will hit harder and faster than a martial arts student who has never been bloodied." I believe that.
I doubt anyone here (meaning civilians primarily) has ever shot anyone. But lots of guys carry knives and fight every Friday night. They are a very real and plausible danger.
John Moses
Moderator
If only that were true
The Tourist
Moderator
John, obviously I meant that within the confines of your local municipality.
But how many people slip a modern pistol with state of the art ammunition into their jeans and think they are invincible?
But how many people slip a modern pistol with state of the art ammunition into their jeans and think they are invincible?
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
I don't disagree with that AT ALL. Thats exactly why 25 feet is often considered shoot distance on a threat with a knife. However, that doesn't mean that a knife is somehow superior to a gun. That same untrained citizen with a UN-HOLSTERED firearm would be in a far superior position to a trained guy with a knife IMO because...
Wrong for certain on point 1. On point 2, those guys who fight with knives generally fight other guys with KNIVES, not guns.
Fact is, gun wins 99.99% of the time. Prove otherwise.
And proof isn't one story where some guy with a knife won a fight against a gun. Proof is statistics.
The Tourist
Moderator
peetzakilla, you are, in fact, winning me over on many points.
However, these are not blanket concepts that protect every TFL member. There is a percentage of guys who universally fight other guys with knives, but I doubt they consider it a rule. They will turn on you.
And I simply ask you to ponder this. Below is an eight dollar knife, you can buy it on-line from the convenience of your home. While there are very few tinkers who practice sharpening in the Japanese tradition or use waterstones, you can find these tradesmen or buy the equipment for your pesonal use. Again, you can make these purchases on-line.
There is a move called a "snap cut." It is used/taught in both knife fighting and to saber fencing students. I learned it, myself. It comes out of nowhere, and with a decent knife it leaves wounds that bleed profusely.
Please consider it.
However, these are not blanket concepts that protect every TFL member. There is a percentage of guys who universally fight other guys with knives, but I doubt they consider it a rule. They will turn on you.
And I simply ask you to ponder this. Below is an eight dollar knife, you can buy it on-line from the convenience of your home. While there are very few tinkers who practice sharpening in the Japanese tradition or use waterstones, you can find these tradesmen or buy the equipment for your pesonal use. Again, you can make these purchases on-line.
There is a move called a "snap cut." It is used/taught in both knife fighting and to saber fencing students. I learned it, myself. It comes out of nowhere, and with a decent knife it leaves wounds that bleed profusely.
Please consider it.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
I have no doubt. I would love to have such a knife for field dressing deer. (Never had a knife that stayed sharp very long except a Cutco) I would not disagree that knives are especially dangerous in the hands of a trained person. I, for one, wouldn't care to face someone with a knife any more than I would someone with a gun. My intent is to address, in a general way, overall, would you rather fight with a small gun or a knife? I'll take the gun. Maybe not in EVERY situation, if I could somehow know ahead of time what the situation would be. Fact is, we can't know what will be around the next corner and IMHO I am safer 99.99% of the time with a gun.
I think of it this way.... I would guess every one knows someone who claims that their life was saved by NOT wearing a seat belt in an accident. Some of them, no doubt, are correct. Odds are though, next time they will die because they are not wearing the belt. So I'll take that .01 odds against the 99.99%.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Once again Tueller's great work on this topic is mis-stated. That is NOT a fact. What is a fact is that a person who is 21 feet away from you can usually close with you and harm you if you just stand your ground and draw your gun. Thus, the defender should utilize options besides standing your ground and drawing down on the BG. But just because they are within 21 feet does not mean they will be able to hurt you.
Tourist –
You stated “According to ER reports, a knife fight is "both cut, at least one drunk." The guy who attacks you with a knife is probably stewed to the gills. He doesn't care about you "knife to a gunfight" joke. And he has experience.”
How much knife fighting experience can one have and not be dead or in prison?
I can’t think of a better job than teaching knife fighting – “Consider the tens of thousands of guys who are trained by James Keating and Jerry Vancook.” What a racket! How many chances would your student have to practice this? Your teaching could be complete BS, but who is going to come back and complain? If the training sucked, they’d be dead or in jail. If you were a criminal, would you really spend money on knife training? Heck, just spend that money on a gun instead.
You stated “According to ER reports, a knife fight is "both cut, at least one drunk." The guy who attacks you with a knife is probably stewed to the gills. He doesn't care about you "knife to a gunfight" joke. And he has experience.”
How much knife fighting experience can one have and not be dead or in prison?
I can’t think of a better job than teaching knife fighting – “Consider the tens of thousands of guys who are trained by James Keating and Jerry Vancook.” What a racket! How many chances would your student have to practice this? Your teaching could be complete BS, but who is going to come back and complain? If the training sucked, they’d be dead or in jail. If you were a criminal, would you really spend money on knife training? Heck, just spend that money on a gun instead.
The Tourist
Moderator
peetzakilla, I would wonder this, and it might shed some light on my side of the debate.
Whatever the scenario, whether it's your initial action or the action of the other combatant, you see that he seemlessly draws a very appropriate knife (not a gun or a club), squares his shoulders and clearly is not going to back down.
I would ask myself, "Why?" What does he know that I don't? Of all the cutlery in the entire world, why is he already prepared with an edged tool that is clearly capable to take human life?
And if I hit him with a .25 ACP slug(s) [that's the debate scenario in this thread], is he so full of PCP, adrenaline or anger that +/-21 feet are even going to slow him down?
Many folks laugh when I mention "townie saloons," and admittedly I use the concept for humor, myself.
However, like it or not, there are dozens of such places here in Madison, and probably in your town. I avoid them them like kryptonite. I sincerely believe there are thousands of these guys who use my own joke:
"Never take a gun to a knife fight."
Whatever the scenario, whether it's your initial action or the action of the other combatant, you see that he seemlessly draws a very appropriate knife (not a gun or a club), squares his shoulders and clearly is not going to back down.
I would ask myself, "Why?" What does he know that I don't? Of all the cutlery in the entire world, why is he already prepared with an edged tool that is clearly capable to take human life?
And if I hit him with a .25 ACP slug(s) [that's the debate scenario in this thread], is he so full of PCP, adrenaline or anger that +/-21 feet are even going to slow him down?
Many folks laugh when I mention "townie saloons," and admittedly I use the concept for humor, myself.
However, like it or not, there are dozens of such places here in Madison, and probably in your town. I avoid them them like kryptonite. I sincerely believe there are thousands of these guys who use my own joke:
"Never take a gun to a knife fight."
The Tourist
Moderator
bbrian said:
There is an inexhaustible supply of drunken townies. It's like playing "Whack-A-Mole." I think trailor parks breed them on purpose.
Besides, what's felonious assault? Three to five, tops? These guys will eat some free food, lift some weights, get a few new tattoos and be out before you finish college.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
If I can, I run. Otherwise...
I draw the .25 I'm carrying because some one apparently stole my .357sig
as I see him draw, if I haven't already (depending on what has already happened), he gets a warning then any movement in my direction, I fire until he stops or I'm out of ammo or he gets to close. If I can, I run. If I can't we fight and one of us probably dies.The Tourist
Moderator
peetzakilla, LOL.
I think I'm done here. I hope I made some folks think. If I had to impart anything I could to protect people here, I'd just tell them to always walk in yellow. Lots of dangerous folks out there who don't read hobbyist forums and don't know they're supposed to fall over when hit.
Thanks for the debate, guys.
I think I'm done here. I hope I made some folks think. If I had to impart anything I could to protect people here, I'd just tell them to always walk in yellow. Lots of dangerous folks out there who don't read hobbyist forums and don't know they're supposed to fall over when hit.
Thanks for the debate, guys.
The Tourist,
you are making one of the most irrational arguement I've ever heard.
if you get to pick a trained guy with a knife and put him up agains joe average yes you got a chance.
the man said all things being equal
I'll put my money on the "Front Sight/Thunder Ranch" graduate with the gun over anybody with a Knife.
Just as I would if they are both Joe Average.
you are making one of the most irrational arguement I've ever heard.
if you get to pick a trained guy with a knife and put him up agains joe average yes you got a chance.
the man said all things being equal
I'll put my money on the "Front Sight/Thunder Ranch" graduate with the gun over anybody with a Knife.
Just as I would if they are both Joe Average.
Most of you are drawing wrong conclusions
Most people that are going to cut you are already around 3 to 5 feet from you. If you don't have your gun out already, you will get cut and or severely injured.
He is not going to be around 21 feet away. that is just a general rule. If he is withing 21 feet of you and he is already attacking, you will not have time to pull your weapon and shoot him. (unless you train rigorously the Tueller drill on a regular basis). Your best bet would be to move away from him in some type of lateral movement to give you time to draw and shoot your weapon.
If that is the case a 25 cal. is not even going to stop the attack until he has already done you horrendous harm and or injury. You would need at least a bigger bullet to slow him down or stop him in time.
steve
Most people that are going to cut you are already around 3 to 5 feet from you. If you don't have your gun out already, you will get cut and or severely injured.
He is not going to be around 21 feet away. that is just a general rule. If he is withing 21 feet of you and he is already attacking, you will not have time to pull your weapon and shoot him. (unless you train rigorously the Tueller drill on a regular basis). Your best bet would be to move away from him in some type of lateral movement to give you time to draw and shoot your weapon.
If that is the case a 25 cal. is not even going to stop the attack until he has already done you horrendous harm and or injury. You would need at least a bigger bullet to slow him down or stop him in time.
steve
Hmmm.. .25 vs knife?
I have been in that situation: I chased a guy who had a long double-edged knife down two city blocks. I had already wasted one shot, and had only 5 more. When I caught up to him, we both considered our options and he was the one who gave up.
If I had to do that again, I would still choose to be the guy with the Baby Browning instead of the knife.
Of course a lot depends on circumstances (who the two guys are, what has already happened, the resolve of both guys etc).
I have been in that situation: I chased a guy who had a long double-edged knife down two city blocks. I had already wasted one shot, and had only 5 more. When I caught up to him, we both considered our options and he was the one who gave up.
If I had to do that again, I would still choose to be the guy with the Baby Browning instead of the knife.
Of course a lot depends on circumstances (who the two guys are, what has already happened, the resolve of both guys etc).
Odd job, quite a story.
stolivar, yeah, you are pretty screwed if there is a dude 3-5 ft from you knife drawn and your hands are empty, but if you had a knife clipped to your pocket, and a .25 IWB what would you reach for?
Nobody here is dumb enough to say a knife can't kill. For SD I think a gun is king, a knife can be very lethal in a surprise attack close range, but so could emptying 6 shots from a .25 cal gun into some unsuspecting guy. I think most of us are thinking of SD and not sneak attacks.
stolivar, yeah, you are pretty screwed if there is a dude 3-5 ft from you knife drawn and your hands are empty, but if you had a knife clipped to your pocket, and a .25 IWB what would you reach for?
Nobody here is dumb enough to say a knife can't kill. For SD I think a gun is king, a knife can be very lethal in a surprise attack close range, but so could emptying 6 shots from a .25 cal gun into some unsuspecting guy. I think most of us are thinking of SD and not sneak attacks.