.25 or a good knife?

Never take a knife to a gun fight
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Whenever I hear this old joke I often wonder if the guys repeating it have ever been in a fight, at all.

Even my friend who is a guard at the Mendota State Hospital (and trained by the Navy) has been shanked, and one time had a knife made from a Bic pen jabbed through his forearm.

We have now reached a point in development and cost where any idiot can purchase a knife made from alloys not even invented five to eight years ago. Once again the traditional Japanese method of waterstones and sharpening is in vogue and the service can be provided.

The knife in this picture is a current CRKT Razel, made as a licenced copy of the Graham Brothers model. With connections, I bought the knife for fifty bucks. Using tools I already owned in my sharpening kit, I put this edge on the knife. It is sharper than a professional butchers' knife could get fifteen to twenty years ago.

DSC00338.jpg


If I grab you, hang on and simply flail away, you will die, and I mean a horrible death.

Take my advice, never bring a gun to a knife fight.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/kunsan.asp
 
Whenever I hear this old joke I often wonder if the guys repeating it has ever been in a fight, at all.
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How many 'knife fights' have you been in?

The guy in the picture you supplied a link to, only has superficial non-life threatening wounds, wounds that were inflicted by another inmate, possibly with a sharpened toothbrush.

It would be a good idea to practice prison style 'knife fighting' if you plan on 'flailing' away on someone with your razor sharp blade.
 
nate45

Not only is the subject suffering from superficial non-life threatening wounds, he is upright and conscious, a very bad posture for a person we are trying to defeat!!!!

Good Luck & Be Safe
 
How are you going to practice for a knife fight? Keep fighting after you've been cut? So your opponet is also going to be armed with a knife?
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Hey nate, how are you going to practice for a gun fight? Or after being shot?

And I know what you are talking about with "knife fighting" and agree with you. If I was faced with an opponent with a knife, and I had a knife, im gonna be haulin my butt somewhere else. I might not be faster, but I got a better chance than swattin it out, and I have training with a knife (but alot more training running).

Also, in this scenario Id choose the .25. But if the choice was; I had to face an attacked who held a gun with either a knife or unarmed, I would choose the knife. And thats saying if I had to. I cant carry a gun everywhere, but most of those placed I cannot carry, I can bring a knife into.

You cant always fight with what you need, only what you have.
 
Hey nate, how are you going to practice for a gun fight? Or after being shot?
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I'm not and I don't. Remember that at least 50 percent of the people who engage in fighting lose. I just practice shooting and avoidance. I hope if by bad luck I'm in a deadly confrontation thats what it will be a shooting.
 
nate45 said:
How many 'knife fights' have you been in?[/quote

None, and neither has anyone else. The topic is often discussed in terms of conjecture. I'm not sure I've ever seen an article where Jerry Vancook (a real expert) claims that he has direct knowledge, but he sure has years as an instructor and LEO.

But I will tell you this, I do service knives for guys who do use them. When I sharpened for our local Gander Mountain I serviced about two dozen knives for young soldiers (and Marines) were about to be deployed. Perhaps 200 for local LEOs.

The type of West Side Story style "step into the light" type of knife fight never really happens. In fact, I have been in several hobbyist forums where that very question has been asked, and no one had personal knowledge.

But we do have knife attacks. And knives are getting better, and the better ones are getting more affordable. And the better the knife is the better the chances it will take and keep a better, sharper edge. And that is something I do know about.

And let me address the issue of a "superficial" knife wound. If there is such a thing, we should notify ER staff. Knife wounds are serious. Deep stab wounds injure organs and increase the chance that a wound is ultimately fatal. Knives are dirty, and wounds produce blood borne pathogens. Scalp cuts bleed like there is no tomorrow. (My SIL is a Red Cross nurse.)

Woe to he who has his femoral artery sliced.

Even minor cuts are serious. Consider that in a real situation. An attacker slashes with one of my knives, and you successfully block it with your forearm. I suppose that's a minor cut, because he did not reach your vital organs. Just exactly how many forearm wounds are necessary before the condition is really serious.

My final point in this debate is the knife's ability to puncture. A good knife will ease itself through kevlar without any true resistance. For the purposes of this discussion, we have paired this to a .25 ACP. Most of the vests I've seen advertised try to equate their safety ability to a .38 SPL or a 9x19mm.

But debates aside, we should be helping each other. We shouldn't want any of our friends here to get cut or shot. My position is that we shouldn't teach or poo-poo that a knife is some minor league tool. I live in Wisconsin where there is no CCW provision. I carry sharp knives of superior design. I consider them a lethal weapon, and so should my mugger.
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My position is that we shouldn't teach or poo-poo that a knife is some minor league tool.
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I never said that, the knife is a very lethal weapon. It is that legally there are very, very few circumstances where you can justify the use of a knife for SD.
 
why carry a .25acp when you can carry a lighter .380 P3AT or an LCP
my glock subcompact .40 usually sits in my right front pocket
a .22lr has more muzzle energy than a .25acp
 
I like my little .25acp, but it's not 'magic' ie. one has to know how to use it wisely. One has to be proficient in mousegun tactics to get the most out of it.<unless of course one is just very lucky/unlucky> A .25acp can very effective and far superior to a 'knife.'


With that being said, however, a 'knife' can be far superior to a .45 - if one knows how to use a knife.<unless of course one is just very lucky/unlucky>
Think of it this way: A Grizzly Bear carries 'knives'<teeth>and uses'em quite well! A knife can be used quite skillfully and go directly to an incapacitating deadly spot.


Anecdotal: Two big young marines chased off a young wimpy looking intoxicated man from a party. The young drunken wimpy man whirled around and plunged a rather small knife in the chest of the big burley Marine and killed him instantly. The other Marine was shaken up...as was the perpetrator. Real world self-defense situations are messy and somewhat unpredictable. A knife is 'silent' and easily concealed. If used skillfully or 'luckily/unluckily' - it can be as deadly as any firearm in a close quarters situation. Takes a lot more work/training and focus to be confidently skilled with a knife.<imho>


So if a knife is extremely deadly and can be used skillfully - just think how deadly a .25acp can be, if it too is used skillfully. It's what's between one's ears that is most important - not what caliber is stamped on the slide of the pistol...or how fancey the 'knife' is made. One ugly consideration - is that a lot of thugs learn how to use crude knives/shivs in prison...and become quite skilled at getting close to their victims. Becoming skilled/prepared for close quarters self-defense just might be more valueable than learning how to shoot tight 15yd. groups...:rolleyes:


A .25acp can be fun to shoot/plink at the range - and it can also be a good gun to learn how to use for close quarters self-defense. It deserves much more respect.<imho>
 
Agreed, nate45. And I also believe that most of the forum members here are familiar enough with knives, handguns, rifles and MA to know the real attributes of these items and beliefs.

But we still hear the old canard, "knife to a gunfight" or the claim, "he was shot when he only had a knife."

And granted there are extremes to the entire spectrum. If we paired an IPSC champion with custom 1911 using the best combat ammunition of the shelf, against an untrained kid and dull steak knife, hey, guess the outcome.

However if we took a trained aikido MA with the best 13th century Japanese edged weapon I could find, and pitted him against a teenage gang banger who only had a loud mouth and Raven, you can guess that outcome, as well.

We are actually debating all of the pairings in between those radical ends of the spectrum.
 
It is that legally there are very, very few circumstances where you can justify the use of a knife for SD.
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I know no stats, and Ive always heard that exact same thing, but if its a fight for your life, it shouldnt matter what you had to do to survive. However laws (and juries) arent always what they should be.

But on the flip side, if I had a knife pulled on me and I got my gun up quick enough, Im not gonna shoot if he backs down. But I wouldnt hesitate if he made any movement toward me. I dont beleive in the "he only had a knife." Maybe if "he only had car keys and a comb" And those both hurt too.
 
In Wisconsin it is legal to defend yourself with a knife.

I ran into a young couple a few years ago during the period in Madison where there was a spate of serious injuries during attacks on patrons leaving State Street taverns.

One of my clients was a guy who looked like a regular low-key college student.

He approached me and asked to buy a self-defense knife. I went into the usual spiel about just buying a good folder because knife fights are rare.

He says, "No, you don't understand. I'm here to buy a replacement. My girl friend and I were attacked by a mugger--I cut him--and the cops took my knife."

Obviously there was going to be some further court hearings. But this kid was simply questioned and released.

(Now before you guys jump on the bandwagon of knife fighting, I believe the kid did everything wrong. The stories of the muggings were well publicized. Additional foot patrols were added, even our Police Chief walked a beat one night. The kid was leaving the bar, walking through the very neighborhood discussed on TV. And worse yet, he did it in "condition white." He let the attacker get within contact distances before he did anything.

Rather than praise the knife, we should educate the kid. And I politely discussed that very thing with him. I did sell him a good knife. I believe attackers are slime, and who knows how many relatives with a grudge this mugger has.)
 
I always carry a knife .... always, home or out and about ... when walking my dog, I carry a Taurus PT25 also ... I don't think either would be considered the ideal SD weapon, and I carry a more substantial gun under all other circumstances; the .25 is nice and light and just falls in my pocket for a walk around the neighborhood. I'd rather have a .25 than a knife if I was in a life-threatening situation. I'm too old to learn to fight with a knife; if somebody is threatening me, shooting at greater-than-arms-length distances is my choice.
 
i'll take both, if i could. i always have a folder on my person except in certain buildings and airplanes. always carried 1 even before being told by a former employer " a sharp knife will one day save your life". am i trained in knife fighting? nope but i still carry one.

a neighbor of mine many years ago was shot twice in the chest with a .25. the second shot hit him in the heart. he was working at an auto shop in camden nj. a customers car was towed in with a broken fan belt. the guy (mechanic) replaced with a used belt or didn't do a good job. the customer left, got only a few blocks away and the belt broke. customer went back to the shop and argued with the mechanic. mechanic pushed customer,customer pushed mechanic back and pulled a .25 out and fired 2 shots at him. mechanic was'nt a little man either. was about 6" tall maybe 200+ pounds. if i recall right the shooter got away and was never caught.
 
A knife is a very serious tool to be defended against.
A knife is a very poor tool to defend yourself with. A screwdriver is probably better.
A .25 is so much better than a knife, that I find it hard to believe the question was even asked.
 
I guess you haven't heard of the 21 ft rule

A man that has a knife that knows how to use it will severely hurt or kill you if he is within 21 feet and your gun is still in the holster. You can not out drawn him before he gets to you. That is FACT.


steve
 
"Bigger would be better but there have been many people who have met their maker through the hands of the small .22 cal."
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I've got quite a few knives, ranging from a little 2.5" folder that I carry every day to a Ka-Bar US Marine fighting knife.

Given the choice, however, I'd take even one of the .22s over a knife any day. I'm no fan of .25s (too expensive to practice with), and the newest .22s (CCI Velocitor or Stinger) are cheaper and probably every bit as good. I wouldn't hesitate to use the Beretta 87BB Cheetah loaded with Velocitors.

Given my druthers, I'd probably grab for the .38Spl+P S&W first. Nice to have a choice. :D
 
I am pretty sure the way the Colorado CCW law is written,the only deadly force weapon that may be carried concealed is a handgun.
I may be wrong,but I don't think a CCW permit lets you legally carry a Bowie,nunchucks,a garote,or even a telescoping blackjack.Or a Doc Holliday shotgun under an overcoat.(at least in Colorado).The CCW is for a handgun.
Also,as I understand it,a boxcutter or a rattail comb might be OK if it is carried as a tool,but if you cut or stick with it,it becomes a concealed weapon.
I am suggesting you may be in a better legal position if you have a CCW and shoot someone than if you cut them.

I think Indiana Jones pretty well summed up the blade versus gun question.
Also,if you are a knife expert,do not compare yourself to a bumbling gun klutz. Stand before a Jeff Cooper with a .25
I'm not superman.I think a 29 grain .22 short slug in MY chest or stomach would be very distracting and put me at a distinct disadvantage .
Of course a bigger gun is better,but a Colt .25 in the change pocket is a lot more gun than the one you aren't carrying.
 
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