.25 or a good knife?

The only advantage a knife has over a gun is that it doesn't run out of ammo. On the other hand it does not take a very deep incision across the abdomen for you to experience something called "billowing intestines". I always carry a knife simply because it is useful other things and if you know how to use it is a very deadly weapon, but my vote goes for the gun with the knife as a last resort.
 
Bill, for most of the unschooled population you're undoubtedly right.

But I think we should also "get past the metal" in thinking about this debate. For example, I was just an average student on my fencing team. But it taught me what to look for, and how to reposte and remise. Now imagine a guy with some real training.

One of my truly different clients was a Marine who served one and only one rotation in the middle-east. With all of the manpower shortages, he applied and they didn't want him back.

There's a C/W song that uses the phrase "all shook up like a quarter in a can." and that aptly defines him. He cannot sit still, and if he is forced to stand quietly while I finish a knife, he twirls another one and rolls it between his fingers like a Vegas magician does with a coin. And these are my knives.

In all honesty, I doubt if he would even feel the first few shots as he attacked you. And even if he died at some future date, his own blend of tenacity, speed, Escrima and anger would hold him together until his target was long dead.

He is definitely one of a thousand.

But here's the thing which we should remind folks. He looks like an average guy with a high-n-tight haircut. He's of average build, he wears civilian clothes, in fact, pleated dress pants if he's coming from work. Until the first ten minutes go by and he's off onto one of his many bizarre conspiracy theories, he appears like the kind of guy you'd like your sister to meet.

People, weapons, theories, education, knives and their alloys, condition of their maintenance and the tenacity of the user all vary. What might scare me angers the next guy. And I'll wager that many of our forum members here have met at least one of these wild guys akin to my client.
 
A man that has a knife that knows how to use it will severely hurt or kill you if he is within 21 feet and your gun is still in the holster. You can not out drawn him before he gets to you. That is FACT.
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That's what I was told as well until my CPL instructor gave us a demo. He held on to my shoulder and told me as soon as he let go to draw, aim, and doubletap a target at 21 feet with my weapon (Colt Gov't .45). By the time he got to a measured 21 feet in the other direction, I had two center mass hits with my .45; he was no sprinter, but I'm no professional gunfighter.

Hard to believe a man with a knife is gonna be running at me anyway, but if it is I think a couple 230 grain slugs are gonna impede his knife fighting ability a bit.
 
45_Shooter said:
I think a couple 230 grain slugs are gonna impede his knife fighting ability a bit.
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Have you studied the history of the Moros and their bolos?

I have even heard urban legends of insurgents who just didn't want to die, and who were found later with a mouthful of khat.

I take no man for granted. As I have stated, the most dangerous man I know is 63 years old.
 
45 Shooter

The Tueller Drill, is a reaction based drill. The idea is to engage a target closing on you from 21 feet in approximalty 1.5 seconds. The trick is that to be real the time must incorporate your reaction time, not just draw and fire. You knew when the "attacker" was coming, and responded. The idea is that the attacker starts his attack before before you identify that he is a threat and then you draw and fire.

Lots of mixed results to this drill, mostly because Sgt. Dennis Tueller did not define well how to start the drill. Remember: practice drills need to come close to reality, otherwise, we can design them to win or loose at OUR whim. :)

Good Luck & Be Safe
 
Any documented cases of someone being attacked and defending themselves with a pistol, then having to go to the knife?

I can’t imagine too many scenarios that would require someone to go to these lengths. I know movie gunfights usually devolve into the scene where the star squares off with the equally trained/skilled bad guy (see Roadhouse) for a kung fu style knife or fist fight. But what are the odds that you will run out of bullets and then need the knife? Or, if your gun fails, what are the odds that you will even have time to get your hands on your knife?

The knife carrying (along with a pistol) seems excessive to me, but I’m open to hearing about the need.
 
An "aquaintance" of mine died from a single 25 to the chest after a road rage incident. shooter drove off.
Bob got back in his car and gave chase for over 20 minutes before he drove off the road, dead.
I dont think bob knew he was shot!
I also believe that if bob had caught the guy there would have been 2 deaths instead of 1.
Point is; folks dont immediately "lay down" when theyre shot. especially with small caliber.
but i would still take a gun over a knife any day.
tom
 
The knife is always there, as I have carried one since I turned 15. My Grandfather gave my first one to me, saying "there is no such thing as a well dressed man without a knife". I use it all the time in my work.
 
.25, as you can use it from a distance. There is a police training video out there showing how a person with a knife can close the distance to a person faster than a non-practiced person can draw a gun. I'd rather try to keep the person at a distance.

For years, my backup gun was a Sterling .22 kept in a coat pocket or spare handcuff case.

...there is no such thing as a well dressed man without a knife.
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Ah, nice sentiments, though.

The Doc is out now. :cool:
 
Whenever I hear this old joke I often wonder if the guys repeating it have ever been in a fight, at all.

Even my friend who is a guard at the Mendota State Hospital (and trained by the Navy) has been shanked, and one time had a knife made from a Bic pen jabbed through his forearm.
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Knives are to be defended against, not used for SD.

Major Drawbacks:

1) For all intents, point blank only.
2) Requires your own physical strength to accomplish damage

Guns:
1) Kill from a distance
2) Kill if all the strength you've got is enough to pull the trigger


I just don't understand the "I know a guy who was stabbed..." argument.
Nonsensical to me, you know him so it didn't kill him, he didn't use the knife in SD (the whole point here) and he was stabbed with modified junk.

Maybe I'll pack a sharpened Bic instead of a gun...
 
In that video, why does the knife attacker get to have his weapon in-hand whereas the handun wielder is holstered. Let them both start from equal postions and then see who gets double-tapped first.
 
peetzakilla, the point of my post was this incident happened in the Mendota State Hospital. The friend from my church is a guard, but not for the general population. He is in the lock down section of a mental hospital for prisoners, the convicted, and patients too dangerous to be in a traditional hospital setting.

Those people are heavily monitored. Obviously they are not to have any cutting or pointed objects of any kind. When a patient barricades himself in his room, or becomes a threat, it is sometimes necessary to "suit up" and become a crash team. Not to hurt the patient, but to retrieve weapons or even save the patient from himself.

In one case, a patient badly bit his own scrotum and required serious medical intervention. It's not funny when you have protect yourself and others from truly troubled individuals.

Additionally, these employees are trained and updated constantly. Their actions are monitored by supervisory staff.

A patient with a weapon of any sort injuring staff or other patients is a constant threat and priority.

So to summarize, a determined aggressor with a rudimentary cutting instrument successfully injured a trained professional who is never in condition white in that section of the hospital. In fact, his job in total is to monitor and direct a dangerous population and he still got shanked.

So imagine the seriousness of an angry focused individual with a modern sharp knife within a contact distance of an untrained citizen.
 
If I grab you, hang on and simply flail away, you will die, and I mean a horrible death.
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:rolleyes:
Woe to he who has his femoral artery sliced.
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OK I will just lay on my back doing the splits so you can slice my femoral. Whadda ya got like a 2 inch blade?

any gun>edged weapon>bare hands

This is of course no guarantee of how the fight will end. I would not knock the element of surprise either. A knife, brick, or even a good sucker punch could be the beginning of the end.

Most of us here are considering a weapon for self defense, If somebody pulls a gun on you are you going to close distance and slowly carve him up like a thanksgiving turkey?

All else being equal I'll take a gun, any gun.
 
It is that legally there are very, very few circumstances where you can justify the use of a knife for SD.
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Unless you have supporting legal research, you shouldn't make claims like that.

Forced to choose, I'd take the .25, but I wouldn't be happy about it. Much rather have both.

I'd take a sharp knife over a mini-revolver, without question.
 
I just happened across this website with regards to one-shot stopping power. They seem to have done their research. Scroll down for the data & suggestions.

http://www.internetarmory.com/handgunammo.htm

Note that the 25 ACP is rated below the 22LR with regards to stopping power, but is considered more reliable because it is a centerfire. Still, I'd take a 22 with quality ammo over a 25 ACP.
 
Its my assertion that 99 out of 100 grown men will run like little girls if aggressively pursued and shot anywhere on their bodies with a Daisy air rifle.

Making fun of ANY caliber just tends to make you look stupid.

You may now use strong language on me. But I warn you, I own both a Daisy air rifle and a .25 acp. So you better do it from behind a keyboard. :)

And before you all get yourselves worked up, save it. I don't believe that a cartridge that has been in use for 102 years can be dismissed as inadequate. Especially since it was invented by god himself. You know who I mean...

White Rice <== Will not only run, but will scream like a little girl, when shot with a Daisy. That darn thing HURTS.
 
You said it White Rice, I'd like to see some of these guys charge a .25 ACP with their knifes, rocks, sticks or what have you. Don't get me wrong some of them might, thats one of the reasons the .25 ACP has killed so many people. They didn't think the little 'toy' looking gun would hurt them.

I remember an episode of Cops, where an African-American woman fired one shot with a .25 ACP to 'scare off' an abusive ex-boyfriend or husband. The shot hit him in the chest and he was lying there dead as a wedge.

The .25 ACP fires a projectile, a projectile that will penetrate more than deep enough to reach the heart, spine and brain.

People have been shot multiple times with .357 Magnums, .45 ACPs, etc and survived. People have been shot multiple times with the .25 ACP and survived. Many others have succumbed to a single round, personally I don't want to toss the dice with my life.
 
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