.25 or a good knife?

Well, I was reading some old newspapers...and noticed that some folks were shot to death, and some folks were stabbed to death. I can't say exactly what happened in each particular circumstance - but I take guns and knives seriously and wouldn't dismiss either one as being 'ineffective.' It's what's between your ears that's most important - not what's in your hand.;)
 
Recon7 said:
Nobody here is dumb enough to say a knife can't kill. For SD I think a gun is king, a knife can be very lethal in a surprise attack close range, but so could emptying 6 shots from a .25 cal gun into some unsuspecting guy. I think most of us are thinking of SD and not sneak attacks.
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I know SD is what I'm thinking of and a knife is a terrible SD weapon.

If were talking ninja style assassination, then I'll use my wakizashi, or better yet my .30-06.
 
"Never take a knife to a gun fight"

Nearly everyone knows this. And it is good advice. But this assumes that there will be a fight. Most knife attacks are just that, attacks. Notice how so many of the situations discussed start with knife attack against a holstered gun? The 21 ft rule is used as a general legal reference, and is not a hard and fast physical fact.

Generally, if your attacker is within the magic 21 ft, you may be considered justified if you have to shoot him. If he is further away, it is difficult (not impossible, but exact conditions are critical) to be judged as needing to shoot.

I am not discounting knives, they are lethally effective, and have been since their invention. But they have drawbacks for defense. First, and foremost, they are a contact weapon. And second, they require a certain level of strength and mobility to be used effectively. A 97lb grandmother would have a much harder time defending herself against attack with a knife than with a gun, even a small gun like a .25 auto.

And when it comes to a fight between young, healthy men, the old saying is that in a knife fight, the winner goes to the hospital, the loser, to the morgue.

Knives work, no doubt. But against a drawn gun (any gun) in the hands of an aware (not surprised) individual, who is determined to defend themselves, and not just drive off the attacker or hold them at gun point (as police are trained to do) I would think the odds will favor the gun. By more than a little.
 
nate45, maybe a blowgun with poison darts :D

If a dude pulls a knife on me I want a gun, if he pulls a gun, I really want a gun. if he sneaks up on me and slices my femoral artery, carotid artery and my medulla oblangata it doesn't matter what is in my pocket.

now what about a flintlock pistol versus a broadsword :rolleyes:
 
My friend described it to me rather well. I forget the context, but we were discussing guns vs. knives and he said (paraphrasing here):

“Shooting someone can be cold, unemotional and disconnected. Maybe you just need the guy out of your way. You might not have anything personal against him; you just need him gone. You don’t need to touch him, or even get close. Knifing is different. Knifing is up close and personal. The knife wielder pretty well has to hang on to the handle and can feel it plunge into his victims body. He can stab, slice, twist. He can make you feel extraordinary pain. He can mentally and physically torture you. Knifing is for dispatching someone with emotion. Someone you really dislike….. yeah…I’d knife you!”:)
 
Obviously knives can be used to kill and kill quickly. However, I seriously doubt most knife wielding thugs have the training to place cuts/stabs to vital organs and arteries. Most of your major ateries are located very deep along the bone such as the two large branches of the femoral. Cutting a radial artery (the one nearest your wrist) will do damage and geyser blood but you have some time before you lose consciousness as it is a smaller artery. Of course perforating the aorta is the fastest way to bleed someone out as is perforating somewhere in the aortic arch just below the sternal notch of your sternum. However penetrating this with a knife is difficult unless the stab is deep and from above the clavical (collar bone area). This is why the Romans often used this approach in exectutions.

Cutting a throat is a different matter and again, most people just dont know where to cut to get the artery quickly.
It is my opinion that defense cuts to the arms and hands are much more preferable to the penetrating wounds of ANY firearm. A .25acp, while a miniscule claiber by all accounts, can and will penetrate the brain if the shot is placed at an angle close to perpendicular to the surface of the skull. It will penetrate deep enough to perforate the aorta and it can penetrate the sternum/ribs causing a fatal bleed in the vessels and or heart itself. It also has enough power to penetrate the ribs and cause a pneumothorax.

In the end, the object of quickly stopping an assailant is to deprive the brain of its function either directly by damaging the neuro tissue itself (brain shot)or cutting off the oxygen carried to the brain by the blood (Bleeding out). Blades can actually do both in the hands of a skilled knife fighter but my bet is that not many people are good enough to place a knife blow into your brain in the middle of a dynamic fight. Its a lot eaiser to get the penetration, the deep penetration needed from a firearm. All things considered, including distance, follow-ups and and the ability to inflict a deep incapacitating wound, Id take ANY firearm over a knife in a fight. Just my opinions. Sorry so long but its a good thread.
 
I was away for quite some time and missed the replies to this post. I posted in haste, and should clarify: Firstly, you CAN practice with a knife- they make "training knives-" we use them extensively for knife training. In a pinch, you can use a magic marker-

The point I was trying to make is a simple one: A gun, a knife, a stick, or whatever is a TOOL for your self-defense toolbox. Depending on where you go, they may be restricted/illegal/impractical. A good physical fitness program, some unarmed, knife, and improvised weapon training, and a strong spirit born of hard work and dedication CAN be the deciding factor. Anything that works, right?

Believe me, I'm not Bruce Lee. I'm claiming to be. I am, however, open-minded and always trying to add new tools to my toolbox. YMMV
 
The .25 ACP has always been like the girl that no one wants to take home to meet their mother. It gets more criticism as a self defense round than the 22 LR. I could never understand why. The 40 grain 22 and the 50 grain 25 bullets both have about the same sectional density and should penetrate equally. Plus, if you belive that stopping power is proportional to bullet diameter, then the .25 has about a 13% larger diameter. And, most importantly, the 25 ACP has more velocity that the 22 LR, when fired from barrels of the SAME LENGTH. From a two inch barrel, the 40 grain 22 chronographs 750-775 ft/sec. The 25 ACP gives an honest 850 ft/sec. With some judicious handloading with a slow burning magnum powder (which for the 25 ACP's expansion ratio, translates to Unique), you can easily attain 900 -950 ft/sec velocities. As for the 22LR being cheaper to practice with...well that's why they make dies and reloading presses. I have buckets of brass that I've pcked up from the range for free. (The only problem is discerning between the .25ACP and the empty 22lr's on the ground.) The cost of 2 grains of powder is negligible. The reloading cost quickly dwindles to the cost of a primer and bullet. The 25 ACP would not be my choice as a defense round if there were other options, but on rare occasions the size and weight of the 25 ACP platform works best.
 
I knew a really big cop who was killed back in 1986 with one shot from a .25ACP, he was shot under the right arm and the bullet was recovered just under the skin on the opposite side of his ribcage
 
Well have all the opinions you want, a .25 doesn't even make a decent club if you run out of ammo.A knife does not run out of ammo, or jam nor does it take sufficent training to use.anywhere in the body there are major organs or arteries, in the wrist(radial),neck(jugular),legs(femoral), so on and so forth, i think the 21 ft rule goes into effect here. a .25 would be nice, but if the opition is permitted and open i'd prob take the blade.
 
I prefer the "Striking" bezel on my Surefire Defender combined with my "Striking" good looks :D

and if that dont work I think I would pull my Beretta Jetfire out of my boot!
 
A knife requires QUITE specific training to use properly.
A .25 is like a 12" long, 1/4" diameter spike that is remote controlled.
( credit to Mas Ayoob)
 
A knife requires QUITE specific training to use properly.

A .25 is like a 12" long, 1/4" diameter spike that is remote controlled.
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I dunno about having lots of training to use a knife. Plenty of people are murdered each year with knives and I doubt the ones doing the stabbing were all trained knife artist.

And I think a .25 auto takes a bit of training to use like any other instrument.

As for .25 .vs. knife, which .25? Which knife? How much training? How will the self defense scenario go down? Will the gun be in the pocket? Chamber empty? Will it be a folder knife or fixed blade?

Like I said earlier in this thread, don't dismiss the knife, especially a big one.
 
Though I carry my Benchmade (or Swiss Army/Leatherman) everywhere I go, for self defense purposes I would choose a pistol. Although, if your trained to a Chuck Norris/Steven Segal level then a knife might be better (seeing as you never have to reload) :p.
 
I dunno about having lots of training to use a knife. Plenty of people are murdered each year with knives and I doubt the ones doing the stabbing were all trained knife artist.
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Like I said earlier in this thread, don't dismiss the knife, especially a big one.
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Deaf Smith nailed what i was trying to say exactly
 
The ability to wound an attacker before he can lay hands on you is invaluable. I'd take even a very light caliber gun over a knife. If he does have the determination to continue the attack, it won't hurt your efforts to have poked several holes in him before he can touch you.
 
I've always heard the old saying "never bring a knife to a gunfight." I think that's pretty decent advice. If the other dude has a gun and you have a knife, my bet would be that you're screwed, unless he's a really bad shot.
 
Like most here, I'd take the .25 for a number of reasons. Like many have noted, it's actually usable over a distance greater than an arm's length. It also helps to take one's strength, size out of the equation. Plus I'd have no idea how to effectively use a knife in a defense. Not that I'm a highly-skilled gun fighter, but far more practiced with one than the other.

I don't imagine there are too many people who have been in SD or HD situations in which they had a gun, and wished they'd had a knife instead.
 
Pro or con?

The Tourist

Certain knives are better.

The question the OP asks compares a wheezy cartridge to any number of knives. As you know, I've been carrying a Razel. At contact distances, that knife leaves more damage than most firrearms. In the hands of a trained Ecrima practioner, it's more deadly than any gun.

Several years ago a salesman told me about his use of a .25 ACP. He went to visit a buddy of his who did the graveyard shift at a gas station. While they were sitting around schmoozing, two hold-up men hit the place.

My buddy pulled a .25 ACP and fired six shots, all hits, into the chest of one of the robbers at a distance across the counter. The hold-up men were stunned and ran off. They called the police who could not find anyone.

Over the next few days there were no reports of bodies or injuries treated at local ERs. They could only surmise that the coat the guy was wearing blunted any impact of the small cartridge.

Compare that to any knife wielder who grabs the aggressor and slices him a few times.
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Is this pro-knife or pro-gun? The gun did what was necessary. It halted the robbery. If the salesman had a knife, it might have, alsom but then again, if both robbers had knives or guns, the outcome might have been different.

The handgun did not get the name "Equalizer" for nothing. Adequate skill with a gun is much easier to develop than adequate skill with a knife and does not decline with age as rapidly, either.

Lost Sheep.
 
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