1986 FBI-Miami shootout

[vox rationis]

I could have expressed myself more clearly I suppose. I didn't mean to imply that the 9mm ball round didn't yaw or tumble at all. I wrote that I am not aware of 9mm ball doing any tumbling that would increase the wound volume significantly. And looking at that permanent wound cavity, I'd say that I am correct.

 

[Socrates]

My read on gello is that, unlike humans, it's a uniform medium. If a bullet tends to tumble in gello, then it's highly likely to tumble as it hits bone, different density in human construction, etc.

I believe this explains why little .223 bullets do so much damage, along with velocity....

Keep in mind that I am not a 9mm convert, but, I will look at what it's done in the past, and, why it's a decent round, if not perfect. Multiple on target shots with 9mm ball would be very effective, don't you think?

 

[Mike Irwin]

"My read on gello is that, unlike humans, it's a uniform medium. If a bullet tends to tumble in gello, then it's highly likely to tumble as it hits bone, different density in human construction, etc."

The jello does a pretty good job at replicating the average mean density of all tissue in the human body, combined. That's why it was selected in the first place.

Jello tests of bullets have also shown pretty strong fidelity with actual shootings using those bullets.

Jello has been the standard test medium now for close to 20 years. There's a reason why it's the standard test medium after such a long period of time, as opposed to say ballistic wax.

It works.

 

[Boats]

SGT127 wrote:

And, I generally agree with Sturmgewehre. Penetration trumps everything except placement. Poke a hole, poke the biggest hole you can, poke it all the way through. Your bullet must be able to penetrate to a vital organ, or the spine no matter what it has to get through. Take a good look and be realistic when you see some pictures of the thugs out there. Watch "Gangland" on the History(?) channel. If you feel comfortble knowing your 115 gr 9mm Uber expanding hollowpoint has enough horsepower to get through some buffed up 350 pound product of the penal system if he is holding your kid hostage and the only shot you have is through his rib cage and all tha associated muscle and fat, go for it.

I will not neceassarily make an argument for ball ammo. But, a good semiwadcutter, a shallow heavy HP at good velocity may all serve you well.

I carried a Kahr 9mm for about a year. I got on a public transit train once and a really wired big fellow got on the train. He was considerably bigger in wieght, size and muscle that a good sized feral hog and, had a bigger (I'm guessing) brain. I would not take on a feral pig with 9mm. Physics doesn't lie. If that bullet, out of that gun would not stop one 350 pound animal that might try and kill me, why should it work on another? (I use ther term animal as a purely descriptive term, rerfering to a warm blooded creature with bones, muscles, blood and a heartbeat. Man is an animal in the biological sense.)

This is faulty logic. With a feral pig, the ethics of hunting say you don't try to dispatch it with a single 9mm hit. Just shooting to drop the animal, one or multiple 9mm strikes to the vitals will definitely kill a feral pig.

You owe the street animal no such concern over undue pain and suffering. You shoot to stop the threat. If that happens with the first one, great, If it happens with the sixteenth, and you live to tell the tale, your marksmanship and/or tactics need work.

 

[DG45]

Quote: "It is extremely common to use .38 special +P rounds out of .357 mag revolvers. Like others have said the decrease in accuracy is insignificant. Most people find full house .357's out of shorter barreled revolvers to have too much recoil and blast,"

That's a valid and understandable point. Thank you for making it. I agree it is probably true that it doesn't make a lot of difference in accuracy if you fire a 38 Special round from a 2 " 357 than from a 2" 38 Special. But IMHO that's just because neither one is worth spit for accuracy. I once had a Charter Arms Undercover model with a 1 7/8 inch barrel. I bought it in 1972 and despite what you may have heard, it was a pretty well made gun, with a supposedly unbreakable firing pin. Or maybe it was just guaranteed until the firing pin broke or the company went broke, whichever came first. (The company went broke first.) There was only one thing wrong with it. I couldn't hit beans with it - and I'm a fair to middling marksman. (I fired sharpshooter with an M-14 - what a wonderful rifle - on Pell's Range at Ft. Knox during my basic training many long years ago, which I always considered the zenith of my shooting prowess.) But shooting that snub-nosed Charter Arms was something else. If I really, really tried very hard I was a little better with it, but it took so long to be sure I had the barrel perfectly lined up on target, and did not lose the target during the long trigger pull, that I'm sure it could not have been fired very effectively in a high stress shootout. Sure, if you hit something, it would knock hell out of it, but it was strictly for Jack Ruby-style shootouts; ie; shove it in the belly and pull the trigger. (Incidentally, IMHO Jack Ruby fired the real magic bullet. Maybe I'll start a new thread about that.) Anyway, I think LEO's would be well-served to just dump all their 2" barreled revolvers in the river and get something that can be shot accurately.

 

[Socrates]

I had a Charter Arms bulldog, in .44 special. With the only factory ammo out there at the time, about 25 bucks a box of 20, in 1980 or so, you got a 250 grain lead bullet that leaded like crazy, used a powder that was really heavy recoil, and, huge blast, and crawled out of the barrel, with truly horrible accuracy. At 7 yards, I was lucky to get two shots on target with a MAN SIZED TARGET.

I handloaded 240 grain HPS at about 1000 fps, a load in the very light .44 magnum area. The little gun loved them. Less recoil, less blast, all 5 rounds on the head part of the target at 7 yards. Only problem was they destroyed the gun, shooting it loose, and, eventually locking her up.

Remington sure put out some real expensive garbage ammo in those days...Haven't bought anything from them since...

 

[Sgt127]

This is faulty logic. With a feral pig, the ethics of hunting say you don't try to dispatch it with a single 9mm hit. Just shooting to drop the animal, one or multiple 9mm strikes to the vitals will definitely kill a feral pig.

You owe the street animal no such concern over undue pain and suffering. You shoot to stop the threat. If that happens with the first one, great, If it happens with the sixteenth, and you live to tell the tale, your marksmanship and/or tactics need work.

Yes, if you shoot something enough times, it will eventually bleed out. As Platt did.

 

[Boats]

My real point was that hunting and self defense shootings involve wildly dissimilar approaches to shooting in terms of how many times one should pull the trigger.

To avoid having to wait for a "bleed out," a pistol caliber round needs a solid CNS hit that cuts the perp's "strings." One should not be counting on or expecting a head shot or paralysis in a chaotic defensive shooting. Regardless of caliber, and I am partial to .45ACP & .357 Mag., multiple solid COM hits are likely going to be required.

 

[vox rationis]

Multiple on target shots with 9mm ball would be very effective, don't you think?

If only we can legally own one of these:

Anyone make an IWB holster for that?

Otherwise, I agree: one of the beauties of 9mm, in the right pistol, with the requisite practice, is that you can lay down a fusillade of rounds, in a very controlled fashion, very quickly.

I saw this video of one of the competitive shooters sponsored by CZ pouring out the quickest rapid fire strings with a pistol that I've ever seen, I think he was shooting a P-01. I've lost the link unfortunately.

 

[Socrates]

This is faulty logic. With a feral pig, the ethics of hunting say you don't try to dispatch it with a single 9mm hit. Just shooting to drop the animal, one or multiple 9mm strikes to the vitals will definitely kill a feral pig.

Don't see it that way. There is a HUGE difference in hitting a pig with a 9mm and a .475 Linebaugh, or. 500 Maximum. One kills like a 375 H&H rifle, the other like a 22lr. While we can't really quantify why, the difference does exist.

The common factor is that both move very quickly, and, may charge. If the BG gets both arms up, to shoot at me, and, I happen to shoot the BG's arm, I want a bullet that's going to blow down the arm, go through the target, and, not loose much velocity doing it, and exit. I just measured myself, and, that would mean 3 FEET of penetration, from hand to back. I support that need for penetration, deep penetration by the number of hand hits that the FBI guys took in that firefight. It appears hits to the hands and arms are much more common in a firefight then we want to admit, and, that we train for.

Shooting with your off hand appears to be a much needed skill to develop.

Fackler shows penetration of 27" for 9MM ball. That might, or might not be enough, if I have my BG shooting at me, with hands up. That's marginal for a feral hog, in particular if it doesn't go down, CNS, with the first shot.

Also, pigs don't wear vests, and, the .475 might get through a vest, might not. 400 grains at 1350 fps is going to give the guy one heck of a bruise, even if it doesn't penetrate, which I think it would.

For real world LEO, the service calibers aren't much different. Hollowpoint loads all penetrate pretty much the same, and, in many situations, none of the service calibers penetrate enough.

In fact, ball ammo, even 45 ACP ball ammo doesn't really penetrate THAT well:

So, the real answer maybe setting up a situation where the officers have maximum chance of hitting their target, with ball ammo, with sufficient penetration.

Sounds to me like submachine guns would be a good issue weapon for such situations...
Italy, and many Euro countries agree with that conclusion...

 

[vox rationis]

The common factor is that both move very quickly, and, may charge. If the BG gets both arms up, to shoot at me, and, I happen to shoot the BG's arm, I want a bullet that's going to blow down the arm, go through the target, and, not loose much velocity doing it, and exit. I just measured myself, and, that would mean 3 FEET of penetration, from hand to back. I support that need for penetration, deep penetration by the number of hand hits that the FBI guys took in that firefight. It appears hits to the hands and arms are much more common in a firefight then we want to admit, and, that we train for

Regarding the penetrating ability of ball rounds, I am not prepared to say that pistol service caliber FMJ rounds lack enough penetrating ability for most situations, but to add fuel to your argument, I'll say that not only is one talking about a bullet potentially needing to go through upper extremity soft tissue like muscle, before it makes it to the thorax, but also quite possibly, if not probably, through the bones of the hand, wrist, forearm or arm as well!

And true about the upper extremity hits being, largely, a non-addressed issue, this is why I brought it up in my post above.

Most people talk about their pet round's performance, penetration and expansion wise, only in terms of clean hits to the COM, in other words, in terms of optimal penetration and expansion scenarios.

Perhaps we should start off with these premises instead: 1) might as well forget about your round properly expanding like the manufacturer claims, and 2) the round might have to go through something like 4 inches of biceps and a humerus before it even gets to the thorax

Just a thought..

 

[vox rationis]

Sounds to me like submachine guns would be a good issue weapon for such situations...
Italy, and many Euro countries agree with that conclusion...

I agree with the spirit of your comment, but how about short barreled carbines in 5.56x45 instead. Actually, I'm sure that the FBI, especially after the Miami fiasco, carry M4's when they go dangerous perpetrator hunting these days.

Anyway, I think LEO's would be well-served to just dump all their 2" barreled revolvers in the river and get something that can be shot accurately.

I think LEO's carrying a 2" snub as a primary weapon went out with platform shoes and disco balls, or at least with the FBI Miami shootout

 

[Boats]

Don't see it that way. There is a HUGE difference in hitting a pig with a 9mm and a .475 Linebaugh, or. 500 Maximum. One kills like a 375 H&H rifle, the other like a 22lr. While we can't really quantify why, the difference does exist.

We're having two different arguments at the same time it seems. One seems to be saying that the 9mm JHP is correctly regarded as marginal for its intended use on BGs, or alternately that all JHP ammo suffers from insufficient penetration to do its job.

My argument is that terminal ballistics and wounding aren't the only factors that play into why the "service calibers" are what they are, or aren't.

Carrying subguns when one knows he is going into a fight is a great idea. I'd rather have a select fire rifle, but both are better than a mere handgun.

The problem is that no plainclothed officer or civilian could carry such a weapon regularly. This inability to be "fully" armed in all instances is the very reason handguns exist. Because they are carried the most and most likely to be deployed without prior notice, one should thoroughly master his sidearm. Furthermore, the handgun is an inherent compromise between lethality and handiness and available firepower, or we'd all be having debates over Ruger Alaskans versus S&W 500s for carry.

So I always come back to a man like the FBI's Jelly Bryce back in the 30s-50s winning confrontations with armed men using only double action revolvers, just like Jim Cirillo a couple of generations later did.

By modern standards, these guys' equipment, especially ammo technology, was decidedly primitive. They didn't whine about terminal effectiveness. They learned to shoot what they wanted to hit. They killed perps dead.

Rather than multimillion dollar studies, and pistol and ammo evaluations, perhaps a lot of that money should be poured into learning marksmanship and battle tested small unit tactics.

The self-defense handgun ammo is "good enough" right now as long as it is above a certain power floor and not too powerful to effectively wield. As the FBI shoot out demonstrated, its the hits and the tactics that have been lacking. Complacency and assumptions about the felony stop that didn't materialize are what contributed to the deaths of those agents, not necessarily their gear.

Not even the slower to reload revolver is necessarily damned by Miami. Fewer misses mean fewer reloads.

 

[Socrates]

Fackler is a real problem, with his actual tests in gello. He really messes with what you think is the right solution for situations. Many here have said the shotgun, with slugs is the answer:

Not much penetration, is it? There was a reason BRI shotgun sabots were created...Also makes you think all those folks saying shotguns with slugs for SD are too much, maybe wrong.

This diagram makes a HUGE positive point for all those LEO's having AK-47's in the car:

And, as for tumbling not increasing a wound cavity, guess it depends how fast the bullet is going:

The above also shoots my 3 feet of penetration a bit, since I'm going to have a very hard time arguing that .308 ammo penetrates inadequately, given it's service record. So, let's go with 24" as a reasonable compromise.

Odd that the 'overpenetrating' over powered shotgun slug only goes 14" in gello. So, there is obviously more to wounding then JUST penetration.

Also, why can't LEO carry select fire Berettas, Glocks, etc.? Already they can buy a bunch of guns I can't in Kali. I'd rather have then properly armed. Anyone shot a burst fire, 9mm handgun? How accurate are they?
What ammo is used?

Boats:

Your argument is an excellent, if politically incorrect one. If you could actually hire FBI agents on the basis of firearms shooting ability, it would probably violate the equal protection guidelines, but, maybe not.

I see no reason why the FBI has to 'dumb down' their firearm selections. Multiple weapons, and calibers, for individual ability. A woman with a .380, and ball ammo, who can hit a grapefruit at 100 yards, is going to be as deadly as the guy putting 38 in his 357, since he doesn't like the blast and recoil.

That said, one probably should realize that there are not very many people that can accurately shoot with larger caliber guns. Lee Jurras, for example is at the top of my list for people I would not want shooting at me. I do not want to test the effect of a 185 grain, 1800 fps, .44 magnum hollow point, in particular from someone that can put a cylinder on a playing card at 100 yards. The Jurras, Skeltons, Jordans, are few and far between. It's sort of like having Wilt Chamberlin as the standard for your average basketball player...

 

[JohnKSa]

One thing that I've learned from this discussion is that guns and ammo play an insignificant role in the outcome of a gun battle.

Are you honestly saying that you don't believe there's anything in between: "the Miami Shootout was a 9mm failure" and "guns & ammo play an insignificant role"?

The fact that one 9mm bullet stopped just short of the heart (after penetrating 4-6" of arm and 8-12" of chest) was ONE factor in the outcome of the fight. So was Gordon McNeill's inability to reload his revolver. So was Manauzzi's loss of his gun. So was Matix's early injury. So was the dearth of long guns among the FBI shooters. The point is that this was a complicated situation with many factors heavily affecting the outcome. Focusing on a single factor as the primary cause for the outcome of this situation is a mistake because doing so, of necessity, ignores a host of other important factors.

 

[DG45]

There have been a lot of great points made in this discussion and a lot of food for thought has been contributed. I don't remember a lot of this stuff even being mentioned in the discussions and conclusions of 20 years ago. For example one person in this thread points out that the Police carry submachine guns in some countries. Another person says we should have that here. Another guy says we can't have that here, it's politically incorrect. Well, it's a badly needed discussion, and its way past time to have it. The problems LEO's faced in the past pale in comparison to what can be expected in the future. There are armed terrorists somewhere out there even tonight plotting and planning to destroy us. Are we ready? LEO's everywhere should look at this Miami shootout again, because although the FBI may have done some things wrong they certainly got some things right, and in the end, they did their job, they protected the public, and they were the victors. And they handled that Miami situation the way terrorists today are going to have to be dealt with; not the way that common criminals are dealt with. It all blew up on the fly from a stakeout. When the bgs were spotted, the FBI took the assualt to them immediately. They ran them off the road in a violent way and they shot it out with the bad guys on the spot, using only the men they had on the scene, armed with whatever they had on hand, and with a casualties be damned mindset, they brought the maximum violence that they possibly could muster to bear against Platt and Matix that day, as quickly as they could bring it to bear, and at the end of the day they'd killed them. A lot has been written about the stones that these two bad guys had, but I imagine before they died, Platt at least was thinking "Who ARE these guys?" Because he knew he was hitting them and they weren't running. he knew they were there to kill him and that they were going to keep shooting and take however many casualties they had to take until they did. That's how terrorists will have to be dealt with. Casualties will have to be expected and accepted. All we can hope is that the LEOs who have to deal with the threat will be better armed for the task than the FBI was armed in Miami.

 

[Socrates]

DG45:
Points well made. I live in a state where when I walk into a gunshop, and, an LEO does, the gunshop guy shows the LEO a bunch of guns I can't buy. I hate it, but, if that's already the case, he should be able to buy something that has meaning, not a Ruger LCP, but, a select fire battle rifle, or submachine gun.

The problem is pretty simple: for thousands of years politicians, crooks pretty much, have recognized that the major threat to their stealing is armed citizens. Aristotle saw it, and, it hasn't changed. Obama is now rich for life, and, from one of the not so, to the golden spoon group, in one election.

The Brits have found out how well gun control works, and, the false promises, and, depriving people of their rights, and liberty is really behind the slippery slope they, and we, are going down.

The bottom line is we are being invaded from the south, and, Mexico has a drug vs. government war that the drug guys are likely to win. When they do, we are going to have to take on Mexican drug guys, trying to invade, with state of the art automatic weapons, bought with more money then God has, well, almost...

Our LEO need the firepower, and, in their wake, the American people might actually get laws, and weapons, that make Yamamotos quotes valid....

 

[.351winchester]

It is almost like these agents had never heard of another shootout in which the 2 FBI agents were primarily armed with a subgun and a semi auto shotgun while the primary arms of the 2 perps were a subgun, semi auto rifle and a fully automatic rifle. Both sides were in vehicles, then the gunfight erupted.

About the same outcome. One of the perps, fatally wounded, advanced on the agents with a semi auto rifle and killed them both.

Many of the older books claim Nelson used a Thompson on his kamikaze walk. We now know that the TSMG he favored as a weapon of choice malfunctioned, and transitioned to a .351. Apparantly eyewitnesses claimed he made the final charge with a Tommy. My theory is that this particular 1907 was not a semi only, standard rifle. I believe his 07 was a Lebman custom, converted to full auto, barrel shortened and compensator added, and vertical foregrip, fed by a 20 round stick (reportedly loaded with dum dums)(there were .351 drums but I think came later in Cuba), the Carbine/subgun Van Meter prefered. At a distance, this might very well appear to be a Chicago Typewriter when busting off from hip level. I know the 07 is a fast firing weapon but there is no mistaking FA from SA. This would mean that Hyman Lebman produced both weapons Nelson used to murder 3 agents. Another possibility could be an actual 1921 or 28 converted to .351 WSL as was found in one of Dillinger's safehouses.

In the vehicle among other weapons were a TSMG, a Colt Monitor (used by Chase), a Winchester .22 (63?), and the Lebman .38 Super 1911 machine pistol that had become Nelson's EDC/PDW that he fired on another federal sedan while driving, prior to the last gunfight. Cowley fired a Thompson with 50 drum from a ditch, Hollis used a Remington 11 SP with 00, and was skullshot NY Reloading the either empty or jammed 11 for his .38 Super.

As for the Miami shootout. There are lessons to be learned for all. It seems like people focus on the 'ifs' more than anything, however, but this thread is full of tactical errors we can be sure to not repeat if lead ever flies our way. I'm no fan of the fbi but these two guys were POS who whacked guys like us plinking just for weapons and Monte Carlos. They got what they deserved and it was good of Mireles to make sure they were code 4. One has to be amazed that Platt took it to them greatly outnumbered, it was all him and Mireles.
I'd like to read more on the pair, info on a possible third suspect, were their wives deaths looked over again

 

[Al Thompson]

Only problem in comparing hogs to men for shooting purposes is that you have to either get the hogs to walk upright when you shoot'em or your assailant down on all fours.

Good luck with that!

 

[Mark Milton]

The Feebies blamed the 9 instead of blaming the agents who got shot...

The bad guys were armed with semi auto rifles and .357 revolvers.

Mirales, the agent who stopped the gunfight did so with a .38 revolver and a 12 guage...

So much for the "firepower" crowd and their arguments....

I don't think 10mms, .45 autos or any other calibers would have made a difference. It was a failure of tactics, not weapons.
The one guy, who kept his cool and hunkered down to fight (Mirales) was armed with low firepower, low capacity, un-tacticool weapons and he won the fight becuase he had the proper mindset to win a gunfight.

Instead of focusing on that, the FBI decided a magic gun and magic bullet would have saved the day....

This is EXACTLY why Jeff Cooper once said that proper training and a wheelgun was better for law enforcement than up to date weaponry and no extra training...