1986 FBI-Miami shootout
- Thread starter DG45
- Start date
After reading the report, it looks like a LOT of bullets were stopped by hands and arms. Shooting through arms, and hands, tends to make the 14" penetration goal look rather inadequate.
Another consideration is that that sort of makes men like hogs, in that instead of a COM shot, you now have to get through arms to get there, and, the people in this fight found themselves in all sorts of strange positions, prone, squatting, etc. that changes the potential area for a bullet to penetrate. A smart bad guy gives you very little to shoot at, and, if you do hit him, you might have a situation where entering next to the head, the bullet, if it penetrates 27-30", like the .308 battle rounds, can do incapacitating damage, and it goes 30" inside the prone bad guy.
Pistol bullets can't do that, I should say MOST pistol bullets...
Another consideration is that that sort of makes men like hogs, in that instead of a COM shot, you now have to get through arms to get there, and, the people in this fight found themselves in all sorts of strange positions, prone, squatting, etc. that changes the potential area for a bullet to penetrate. A smart bad guy gives you very little to shoot at, and, if you do hit him, you might have a situation where entering next to the head, the bullet, if it penetrates 27-30", like the .308 battle rounds, can do incapacitating damage, and it goes 30" inside the prone bad guy.
Pistol bullets can't do that, I should say MOST pistol bullets...
Only if you make the assumption that shooting an attackers arms and hands has no benefit.
In this situation it had a significant impact. Platt was wounded in the forearm early in the fight which cost him the use of his right thumb and also reduced the use of his right trigger finger. He dropped his revolver at that point and was somewhat hampered in his use of the rifle. Later in the fight when he tried to kill Mireles, he shot at him using Matix's revolver and holding it in his left hand. He missed all three shots at what one witness described as point blank range leaving Mireles alive to finish the fight.
On the other side of the fight, McNeill took a .223 round in his gun hand. He was able to continue firing, but when the time came to reload he was unable to. He was shot and temporarily paralyzed while trying to access a second gun. After taking Matix out of the fight very early, McNeill was eliminated as a factor by a hand injury.
Similarly, Mireles was badly injured in the arm which severely hampered his ability to use the shotgun. He fired 5 rounds at a range of 25 feet, pumping the shotgun one handed. He missed with all but one round and that one hit Platt in the feet.
The point is that while a typical service pistol self-defense loading with expanding ammunition may not penetrate enough to kill after going through hands & arms in the worst case, it's not accurate to discount the effect of such hits. Hand & arm hits in this fight definitely had a significant impact on the outcome.
My reaction was the reverse. The shots in the arms, hands, were pivotal in the outcome of the firefight, and, this issue isn't even considered most of the time. It seems that not only a large number of hits were hands and arms, but, that they made a huge difference in the outcome of the fight.
If not for Platt being shot in the arm, Mireles would be dead.
I guess I'm looking at it from the fact that so many shots were hand hits, in a firefight it's actually likely that you are going to hit arms, hands, and, then your bullet is going to have to get through those arms, and get to COM, still penetrate, and, one hopes, exit. That's way more penetration then the average 12-14" service round gives you, and, it wasn't that the 9mm was 'underpowered' it was just typical of what they have done to all service ammo, made it PC. I view it as 38, 357, 9mm, doesn't matter, the rounds are designed to penetrate a certain amount, and, it does not factor in arms, or hands in the way.
If not for Platt being shot in the arm, Mireles would be dead.
I guess I'm looking at it from the fact that so many shots were hand hits, in a firefight it's actually likely that you are going to hit arms, hands, and, then your bullet is going to have to get through those arms, and get to COM, still penetrate, and, one hopes, exit. That's way more penetration then the average 12-14" service round gives you, and, it wasn't that the 9mm was 'underpowered' it was just typical of what they have done to all service ammo, made it PC. I view it as 38, 357, 9mm, doesn't matter, the rounds are designed to penetrate a certain amount, and, it does not factor in arms, or hands in the way.
Except that it doesn't have to. As the results of this firefight show, it's not necessary to get through the attacker's arms/hands to have a tremendous beneficial effect on the outcome. Weapons are made to be manipulated by hands, damaging an attacker's hands and/or arms are an excellent way to render him ineffective even if COM is not reached.
Rendering the attacker ineffective is all that matters in the final analysis.
If you are going there, then a 22mag, WMR, or .17 HMR, or one of the light, small bullet rounds, at high velocity with a very high capacity magazine might be the way to go. http://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_17HMR_22WMR.htm
I know shooting yourself with 22lr hurts like crazy. one of the .17 or 22 WMRs in the hand would REALLY hurt. Also, these are hyper-accurate rounds, with no recoil something that would give the average FBI guy a chance to put multiple
rounds on target, at up to 100 yards.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_154_25/ai_78870847
I know shooting yourself with 22lr hurts like crazy. one of the .17 or 22 WMRs in the hand would REALLY hurt. Also, these are hyper-accurate rounds, with no recoil something that would give the average FBI guy a chance to put multiple
rounds on target, at up to 100 yards.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_154_25/ai_78870847
Just as an aside, hand and wrist gunshot wounds tend to be fairly common, due to focusing on the visual threat (weapon in the HAND) and apparently aiming at the threat. I have read that sometimes in events like this the actual weapons are hit.
That is all, thanks for allowing the input.
I am FM12, and I approved this post.
That is all, thanks for allowing the input.
I am FM12, and I approved this post.
vox rationis
New member
One would hope that an upper extremity hit would incapacitate an attacker, and in most instances it just might, but then again it also might not.
And when milliseconds count and lead is flying both ways, I would prefer a round that can still reach COM after having to penetrate upper extremity structures.
Remember Mirales ended the fight by using decisive fire AFTER he was seriously wounded in the arm. Sure it was difficult for him to use his weapon after it was mangled by a .223 round, but he did it, and he killed both bankrobbers using a handgun, one handed. Also his arm was hit by a .223 round that fragments violently within its optimal ballistic envelope, not by a decidedly "more benign" handgun bullet.
Moreover, one of the other agents that was also hit in the hand found it difficult to close the action of his revolver due to bone fragments or other detritus after he reloaded (I seem to remember), and when he was in the process of reaching for his shotgun in the back seat to re-enter the fight, he was then shot and incapacitated by a .223 round from Platt.
Lastly and most germane perhaps is that Platt himself was shot through the arm with that notorious 9mm Silvertip, before his thorax was penetrated just short of his heart, and it was only after that happened that he still went on to kill the multiple FBI agents.
Point being is that I wouldn't count on upper extremity hits to incapacitate the attacker quickly or decisively enough, and that optimally a bullet should be able to penetrate the vitals in the thorax even after having to contend with the upper extremities that can, and do, get in the way.
Dracu...ahh SoVT:
There is nothing benign about either of the above rifle rounds, that can also be chambered in a pistol. Another choice might be the M1 Carbine bullet, in a revolver.
Point is simple. High velocity, flat shooting rounds with little recoil might be much better for people that aren't able to handle recoil, then the standard service calibers.
I would NOT want to get hit by a 17 grain bullet going 2000 fps, anywhere. It penetrates 9", in gello, and is generally nasty stuff. It's also VERY flat, with very little recoil.
22 mag is similar.
The FN 5.7 x 28MM is a packable, flat shooting handgun that gives you about 10" of penetration, with a 2000 fps, flat shooting, 30 grain bullet.
Well, I wasn't there, and it wasn't me. Suffice to say accidents do happen, and, I refuse to expose my source....And, the source is totally reliable...
There is nothing benign about either of the above rifle rounds, that can also be chambered in a pistol. Another choice might be the M1 Carbine bullet, in a revolver.
Point is simple. High velocity, flat shooting rounds with little recoil might be much better for people that aren't able to handle recoil, then the standard service calibers.
I would NOT want to get hit by a 17 grain bullet going 2000 fps, anywhere. It penetrates 9", in gello, and is generally nasty stuff. It's also VERY flat, with very little recoil.
22 mag is similar.
The FN 5.7 x 28MM is a packable, flat shooting handgun that gives you about 10" of penetration, with a 2000 fps, flat shooting, 30 grain bullet.
Well, I wasn't there, and it wasn't me. Suffice to say accidents do happen, and, I refuse to expose my source....And, the source is totally reliable...
vox rationis
New member
Socrates you are certainly versatile, embracing both the light and fast, and also the gargantuan and fast...actually I see a trend here...light or heavy, you like 'em fast! 
FAST and Heavy is my favorite:
That said, I can see different points of view on the same subject....
I've been having fun reading about the Quigley 50-110 in Quigley down under. When I look at that, I realize my 500 Max throws a 525 at 200 fps FASTER then the 50-110.
Now, THATS a pistol round... Now I see why Jack was telling me of all the guns, and loads I've got, the .500 Maximum is going to make the largest impression. That said, I better be shooting into the berm, since over penetration with a 525 grain LFN, at 1350 fps IS going to be an issue...
I may also have to rethink my friends "Hellboy", a snubby, 50-110 revolver:
Maybe it isn't too much...
That said, I can see different points of view on the same subject....
I've been having fun reading about the Quigley 50-110 in Quigley down under. When I look at that, I realize my 500 Max throws a 525 at 200 fps FASTER then the 50-110.
Now, THATS a pistol round... Now I see why Jack was telling me of all the guns, and loads I've got, the .500 Maximum is going to make the largest impression. That said, I better be shooting into the berm, since over penetration with a 525 grain LFN, at 1350 fps IS going to be an issue...
I may also have to rethink my friends "Hellboy", a snubby, 50-110 revolver:
Maybe it isn't too much...
vox rationis
New member
wow nice rifles although my shoulder runs off like a yelping tremulous Chihuahua with its tail between its legs when I merely think of the recoil those rounds probably produce 
and please tell me you are kidding about that "snubby"
and please tell me you are kidding about that "snubby"
Frankly you can talk about calibers to take out wildlife all you want, it takes more to kill a wild animal than a man. Don't believe it, hook a 10 lb bass. That's a fight. Shoot a 160 lb deer through the heart and knock it down, it can get up and run up to 1/2 mile or more. Their will to live is greater than the average human.
It is not permanent wound tracks that kills anything it is damage to vital organs or cns or loss of blood to the brain. The 9mm round killed the bg, he just didn't know it. Brachial artery severed, bleeding out. Collapsed lung, brain dies soon.
I have shot hundreds of 38 spec through a 2" barrel .357 revolver. If your not a better shot with that than the 357 mag rounds go home and play with crayons.
That said, 00 buckshot and he hit him in the foot? They threw themselves in the line of fire to save civilians? Talk about your nutcase conspiracy theories. You can't believe that bullcrap can you?
The rounds have to hit the target or they are not effective at all, come on.
And seriously some of you sound like anything smaller than a bazooka just won't do the job.
Face it, any gov. agency will find anything but theirpersonnel at fault anytime that it is possible.
It is not permanent wound tracks that kills anything it is damage to vital organs or cns or loss of blood to the brain. The 9mm round killed the bg, he just didn't know it. Brachial artery severed, bleeding out. Collapsed lung, brain dies soon.
I have shot hundreds of 38 spec through a 2" barrel .357 revolver. If your not a better shot with that than the 357 mag rounds go home and play with crayons.
That said, 00 buckshot and he hit him in the foot? They threw themselves in the line of fire to save civilians? Talk about your nutcase conspiracy theories. You can't believe that bullcrap can you?
The rounds have to hit the target or they are not effective at all, come on.
And seriously some of you sound like anything smaller than a bazooka just won't do the job.
Face it, any gov. agency will find anything but theirpersonnel at fault anytime that it is possible.
I think that we've established that while there doesn't seem to be a huge amount of difference in effect within performance classes, if you move to an entirely different class then you can see big gains or losses depending on the direction you move.
Besides, I'm not suggesting one intentionally target arms & hands, just pointing out that hitting an attacker in the hands and arms is not a wasted shot. Even if he continues the attack it's likely that his effectiveness will be reduced to some extent.
I'm not suggesting it's desirable to hit an upper extremity, just pointing out that it's not a total waste of a bullet as has been suggested. Besides, one could say exactly the same thing about a COM hit: "in most instances it just might, but then again it also might not."
If you read my earlier post you will see that I made a similar analysis of the hand/arm hits in the FBI shootout.
The problem with wanting something that will go through hands/arms and still penetrate reliably to COM regardless of angle is that you're going to have a hard time getting that effect with expanding ammo. If you want to use FMJ/ball then you can do it with any of the service pistol class calibers. If you want expanding ammo then you're going to have to get well into the magnums using hunting ammunition to get that kind of penetration.
Something that should be pointed out: Maddux and Platt were both a cop's worst nightmare. Homicidal, sociopathic, and not afraid to die before taking as many cops with them as possible. Platt fought to kill cops as ferociously as a brave man who values his life fights to live--knowing that he, himself, would die at the hands of the police. They weren't ready for him.
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