1986 FBI-Miami shootout
- Thread starter DG45
- Start date
Aiming vs. spraying
I've tried to account for all the shots fired that day in Miami and who shot them, and how many hits were acheived by whom. The following is from accounts that I've read. I can't vouch for the accuracy of these reports but my guess is they are pretty close:
Agent Grogan, who lost his glasses in the collision and was nearly blind without them fired 9 rounds of 9mm before he was killed. No hits known.
Agent Dove fired 29 rounds 9mm. Acheived 1 known hit on bg Platt before Dove too was killed.
Agent Manazuzzi was driving solo in his car. He ran the bg's off the road and became the first target of bg Platt who wounded Manazuzzi in the side. Agent Manazuzzi was thereafter unable to get a gun into action.
Agent Risner and Agent Orrantia were traveling together. Risner had a 9mm. Agent Orrantia had a 4" S&W K Frame. Between these two agents, they fired 24 rounds, but I've been unable to determine between them who shot how many rounds but most of them probably from the semi-auto 9mm. Of the 24 rounds fired by these men, 2 hits are known to have been achieved on bg Platt, but not by whom.
Agent Mcneil arrived solo in his car. He fired 6 rounds of 38 Special +P ammo from a 2.5 in Model 19 .357 magnum revolver. He acheived at least 2 hits on bg Matix, one of which hit Matix in the head seconds into the fight and immediately took him out of the fight after firing only one ineffective shotgun round. After emptying his revolver at Matix, Agent Mcneil returned to his car and began to reload. He had successfully reloaded 2 rounds into his revolver when he remembered his shotgun in the car. He stood up and reached into the car to get it and was hit in the neck by a 223 round fired by bg Platt and was paralyized. He was thereafter out of the fight. He was not "out of ammunition" nor helpless at the time he was wounded, and he had done great service with his six shot revolver before he was wounded.
Agent Hanlon lost his primary weapon in the collision that occurred when the bg's were run off the road. He had a 5 shot J-frame backup. I'm not sure how many rounds he fired with it, if any. No aspersion is meant against Agent Hanlon by that statement. I just don't know.
Special Agent Mireles brought a pump shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot to the fight. Unfortunately he was one of the first wounded by bg Platt who early in the fight shot him in the arm with a 223 round. Thereafter that arm was useless, which made racking the pumpgun very difficult, but somehow Mireles fired 5 rounds from it, and one round wounded bg Platt in the foot. Then Mireles went to his revolver and fired all six 38 Special +P rounds into the already greviously wounded bg's at close range, killing them both.
It seems clear from all this that a great many more 9mm rounds were fired by the FBI agents than 38 Special rounds. It's impossible to know exactly how many more because the reports I've read just say that Agents Risner and Orrantia fired two dozen rounds between them. But it seems clear that the 38 Special rounds achieved a significantly higher number of hits per shot fired than the 9mm's did, and to have done more execution, despite the 9mm's faster rate of fire. I seem to read into these numbers a suggestion that the 38 Special rounds were aimed and the 9mm rounds were sprayed -or is that too much of a leap to make based on the data?
I've tried to account for all the shots fired that day in Miami and who shot them, and how many hits were acheived by whom. The following is from accounts that I've read. I can't vouch for the accuracy of these reports but my guess is they are pretty close:
Agent Grogan, who lost his glasses in the collision and was nearly blind without them fired 9 rounds of 9mm before he was killed. No hits known.
Agent Dove fired 29 rounds 9mm. Acheived 1 known hit on bg Platt before Dove too was killed.
Agent Manazuzzi was driving solo in his car. He ran the bg's off the road and became the first target of bg Platt who wounded Manazuzzi in the side. Agent Manazuzzi was thereafter unable to get a gun into action.
Agent Risner and Agent Orrantia were traveling together. Risner had a 9mm. Agent Orrantia had a 4" S&W K Frame. Between these two agents, they fired 24 rounds, but I've been unable to determine between them who shot how many rounds but most of them probably from the semi-auto 9mm. Of the 24 rounds fired by these men, 2 hits are known to have been achieved on bg Platt, but not by whom.
Agent Mcneil arrived solo in his car. He fired 6 rounds of 38 Special +P ammo from a 2.5 in Model 19 .357 magnum revolver. He acheived at least 2 hits on bg Matix, one of which hit Matix in the head seconds into the fight and immediately took him out of the fight after firing only one ineffective shotgun round. After emptying his revolver at Matix, Agent Mcneil returned to his car and began to reload. He had successfully reloaded 2 rounds into his revolver when he remembered his shotgun in the car. He stood up and reached into the car to get it and was hit in the neck by a 223 round fired by bg Platt and was paralyized. He was thereafter out of the fight. He was not "out of ammunition" nor helpless at the time he was wounded, and he had done great service with his six shot revolver before he was wounded.
Agent Hanlon lost his primary weapon in the collision that occurred when the bg's were run off the road. He had a 5 shot J-frame backup. I'm not sure how many rounds he fired with it, if any. No aspersion is meant against Agent Hanlon by that statement. I just don't know.
Special Agent Mireles brought a pump shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot to the fight. Unfortunately he was one of the first wounded by bg Platt who early in the fight shot him in the arm with a 223 round. Thereafter that arm was useless, which made racking the pumpgun very difficult, but somehow Mireles fired 5 rounds from it, and one round wounded bg Platt in the foot. Then Mireles went to his revolver and fired all six 38 Special +P rounds into the already greviously wounded bg's at close range, killing them both.
It seems clear from all this that a great many more 9mm rounds were fired by the FBI agents than 38 Special rounds. It's impossible to know exactly how many more because the reports I've read just say that Agents Risner and Orrantia fired two dozen rounds between them. But it seems clear that the 38 Special rounds achieved a significantly higher number of hits per shot fired than the 9mm's did, and to have done more execution, despite the 9mm's faster rate of fire. I seem to read into these numbers a suggestion that the 38 Special rounds were aimed and the 9mm rounds were sprayed -or is that too much of a leap to make based on the data?
That is incorrect. He was without a functioning weapon at the time he was shot in the neck.
According to Ayoob's account, McNeill had difficulty reloading due to an injury to his hand. The FBI report notes that "Bleeding profusely, he (McNeill) attempted to reload; however, blood from his hand ran into the cylinders (sic) and he could not put more rounds into his weapon." All accounts note that McNeill took a .223 round to his gun hand. Ayoob says he managed to get two rounds in the cylinder but was unable close the cylinder due to the bone fragments & other detritus from his injury that had gotten on the cylinder during his attempted reload. The aforementioned FBI report indicates that his revolver was recovered with 3 rounds in the cylinder and 3 empty chambers. He was not able to put his revolver back into service when it ran dry. He was effectively unarmed and possibly trying to access another gun when he was shot and paralyzed.
http://books.google.com/books?id=il...=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA39,M1
"Unable to reload or otherwise continue firing he turned...for his shotgun"
Here's another similar account.http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12814
"After McNeill expended his six rounds of .38 Special 158-grain +P, his right hand grievously wounded, he returned to his Olds sedan to reload as Mireles struggled after him. After only managing to get two fresh rounds into his gore-covered revolver, McNeill arose to reach in the back seat for his shotgun, took a .223 round in his neck, and fell over onto his back, paralyzed and out of the remainder of the firefight. "
You are correct that he did "great service with his revolver" before being taken out of the fight by a hand injury. I've often wondered how different the outcome would have been had McNeill been armed with a high-capacity semi-auto. Had he been able to fire more rounds before having to reload, or had he been able to reload by slapping in a new magazine rather than fumbling individual rounds into the cylinder of his revolver with a badly wounded hand, he might have ended the fight before any agents were killed. He had the will to engage, the skill to make a difference, the attitude to continue fighting after wounded as well as excellent positioning and cover. But he was neutralized because all he had was a low capacity firearm that was difficult to reload.
That neglects the fact that the .38 rounds were fired from close range while the 9mm rounds were fired at much longer range. It also fails to take into account the fact that one of the 9mm shooters lost his glasses in the wreck and hit nothing with his rounds.
lots of lessons were learned...
but the most publicly visible one was the FBI focusing on the failure of the 9mm round to stop, and determining that a 10mm round would be better for future use.
While I have no personal knowledge of the area, it is usually described as residential. Many have found fault with the FBI for deliberately doing the felony car stop in a residential neighborhood. Nearly 80 rounds fired by the FBI, and many more by the bad guys, it was an actual miracle that no civilians were shot in the area.
The underlying fact that cannot be disputed is that while the FBI followed their established doctrine (basically, if poorly) they were not prepared for criminals who were determined not to be taken alive.
Tactics have been changed, equipment upgraded. But it was, and is the mindset of the individuals involved that determines how well, or how badly things can go. I would like to point out the very real possibility that not all the rounds fired at the bad guys were aimed at them. I think that at least some of those rounds were fired without deliberate intent to hit, but to try and keep them pinned down. What percentage were triggered in this manner cannot be determined, but should be considered when looking at the total number of rounds fired vs number of actual hits.
The FBI's loss of several agents killed and wounded basically because they were unprepared for what they actually faced, instead of what they expected to face, was tragic. And the bureaucratic blame game settled most on the 9mm bullet. Notice how the paper pushers had to have something, other than failure of the agency. SO, we get the 10mm, and when that proves unsatisfactory for the desk jockeys, the down loaded 10mm which becomes the .40S&W. Interestingly enough, the .40S&W provided the ballistics (in an auto pistol) that noted LEO/gunwriters had been calling for since the 1950s in revolvers.
As to why the FBI service load in their .357s was a .38Spl+p, again, look to the desk jockeys. An unacceptably high percentage of agents were unable to satisfactorily pass qualification using the hotter .357 ammo.
Platt and Matix were stone killers, who practiced shooting regularly (unlike most criminals), had military training, and (apparently) no fear of death. Had both of them been up and running for the duration of the fight, the death toll could well have been higher. We can game this one extensively, what if this or that, and it has been done already. But what the public heard from all that was the 9mm failed. Personally, I think that was the wrong message to send.
but the most publicly visible one was the FBI focusing on the failure of the 9mm round to stop, and determining that a 10mm round would be better for future use.
While I have no personal knowledge of the area, it is usually described as residential. Many have found fault with the FBI for deliberately doing the felony car stop in a residential neighborhood. Nearly 80 rounds fired by the FBI, and many more by the bad guys, it was an actual miracle that no civilians were shot in the area.
The underlying fact that cannot be disputed is that while the FBI followed their established doctrine (basically, if poorly) they were not prepared for criminals who were determined not to be taken alive.
Tactics have been changed, equipment upgraded. But it was, and is the mindset of the individuals involved that determines how well, or how badly things can go. I would like to point out the very real possibility that not all the rounds fired at the bad guys were aimed at them. I think that at least some of those rounds were fired without deliberate intent to hit, but to try and keep them pinned down. What percentage were triggered in this manner cannot be determined, but should be considered when looking at the total number of rounds fired vs number of actual hits.
The FBI's loss of several agents killed and wounded basically because they were unprepared for what they actually faced, instead of what they expected to face, was tragic. And the bureaucratic blame game settled most on the 9mm bullet. Notice how the paper pushers had to have something, other than failure of the agency. SO, we get the 10mm, and when that proves unsatisfactory for the desk jockeys, the down loaded 10mm which becomes the .40S&W. Interestingly enough, the .40S&W provided the ballistics (in an auto pistol) that noted LEO/gunwriters had been calling for since the 1950s in revolvers.
As to why the FBI service load in their .357s was a .38Spl+p, again, look to the desk jockeys. An unacceptably high percentage of agents were unable to satisfactorily pass qualification using the hotter .357 ammo.
Platt and Matix were stone killers, who practiced shooting regularly (unlike most criminals), had military training, and (apparently) no fear of death. Had both of them been up and running for the duration of the fight, the death toll could well have been higher. We can game this one extensively, what if this or that, and it has been done already. But what the public heard from all that was the 9mm failed. Personally, I think that was the wrong message to send.
Para Bellum
New member
JohnKSa, you're right / Mike Irwin and TROOPER COATES
And a man who wins a fight with a handgun against a rifle would win this fight with any handgun, even a .22lr. Why? because he would be a master of placement and a .22lr in the head stops any fight.
Mike Irwin:
Ok. you're right in finetuning these statements. But: Even with lighweight .44 Mag Hollowpoints: The Agent's shots were just not placed in a way that it would have made a difference.
And a man who wins a fight with a handgun against a rifle would win this fight with any handgun, even a .22lr. Why? because he would be a master of placement and a .22lr in the head stops any fight.
Mike Irwin:
Absolutely my opinion, too.
I think that post makes it for me: If you are an FBI Agent on duty, especially such a dangerous assignment, how can you NOT be prepared to fight for your life and possibly kill two very dangerous men? Our police SWAT teams make every arrest entry with .223 rifles (Steyr AUG). Just to make sure.
Remeber the tragic shooting of Trooper Coates? he wore a vest, caught one .22lr from an NAA mini with it, then hit the BG 5 Times COM with 125gr high quality .357 Mag hollowpoint ammo from a 4" Service revolver, only to be lethally shot with the 2nd .22lr round entering under his armpit as he turned. The BG never faded out (until surgery) and serves life in prison. The video from the cruiser's cam is online somewhere. Coates died 12 seconds after the second .22lr hit. What did I learn from this: Placement, and if in reach: A rifle!
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I agree completely.
The firearms community, specifically the gunwriters, should have corrected this conclusion, but unfortunately at the time that group was only too ready to jump on the bandwagon for ANYTHING that cast the 9mm in a negative light. The recent announcement that a 9mm pistol was replacing the darling of the gunwriting world, the 1911 .45ACP, as the military's new pistol pretty much assured that.
LanceOregon
Moderator
Judging solely by the results of this shootout, the best pistol to bring to a gunfight would be the new SIG 556 handgun shown last month at the Shot Show:
It even comes with a set of AR-15 mags clipped together, so you can carry it with 60 rounds.
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It even comes with a set of AR-15 mags clipped together, so you can carry it with 60 rounds.
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Sturmgewehre
New member
This is exactly where it happened.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...6841,-80.326235&spn=0.001961,0.00225&t=h&z=19
Here's a great street level view.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...p=12,134.63162668127808,,0,-3.034666574801926
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vox rationis
New member
Well, that particular 9mm load was judged to be inadequate in the area of penetration, so in that sense that particular load did fail. The subsequently initiated FBI ammunition testing protocol then went on to demonstrate that the 9mm Silvertip consistently under penetrates as tested.
This lack of penetration indicted the trend of using light and fast rounds for the 9mm.
Ironically the FBI .38 special load was the result of a totally converse ideology relying on a heavy round with lots of cross sectional density traveling at a slow velocity (what, around 780 fps out of a 2" barrel I think).
Maybe there was a need to blame the 9mm in order to save some Bureau face, but their conclusion that their agents are better served by 180 grain JHP .40 caliber bullets traveling at 960 fps instead of 115 grain JHP 9mm bullets traveling at 1200 fps (although I'm not sure what iteration of the Silvertip the FBI was using back in 1986) was, based on the data that I've seen, a correct one.
Should they have first examined other loads in the 9mm? Well they did, refer to the FBI 10mm notes, and it seems that their conclusion was that their 10 mm load, and the .45 ACP loads that they tested were significantly superior to all tested 9mm loads available at the time (the 147 grain subsonic load found to be the best of the then available 9mm loadings).
Anyway, it seems that most of the rationale, at least the official rationale, for going with the FBI 10mm load (downloaded to essentially .40S&W ballistics, of course then not available) is in the above linked FBI 10mm notes document.
Also here is a link to the http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/shooting.htm, I didn't look through it, there's lots of stuff in there, but it might prove useful to some.
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Sturmgewehre
New member
One thing that I've learned from this discussion is that guns and ammo play an insignificant role in the outcome of a gun battle. Their role is so insignificant that it's not even worth mention. So let's forget that the 9mm Silvertip of the era was deemed inadequate for law enforcement use and never bring it up again. Out of the list of lessons learned, we can just scratch this one off the list.
Bear Claw Chris
New member
B.N. Real said:
Exactly.
Good thing the Super Bowl is today, there seems to be an abundance of "arm chair quarterbacking"
The bruising around the gunshot wound of a game animal (it's present in shots with handguns and shotguns, not just rifles) is simply an illustration of the fact that certain tissues are fragile enough to be damaged by temporary stretch cavity. Other such tissues include the liver, heart valves, certain nervous tissues and to some degree the lungs. Damaging capillaries can contribute significantly to incapacitation if enough cappillaries in the right place (such as the lungs) are ruptured.
Chuckusaret
Moderator
Lesson Learned
The rumor, hear say, by some people on the scene is that the LE types were not prepared, not organized and were outgunned. My local police department, after the Miami incident, purchased MP5's, Tactical shotguns and either .40 or .45 caliber side arms. Every car has a MP5 or a shotgun and every cop has received hundreds of hours of range time with every weapon in the armory and has also gone thru training to be effective in a situation like the Miami incident.
The rumor, hear say, by some people on the scene is that the LE types were not prepared, not organized and were outgunned. My local police department, after the Miami incident, purchased MP5's, Tactical shotguns and either .40 or .45 caliber side arms. Every car has a MP5 or a shotgun and every cop has received hundreds of hours of range time with every weapon in the armory and has also gone thru training to be effective in a situation like the Miami incident.
Para Bellum
New member
weak 9 / wonder 9
The bashing of the 9x19mm after the Miami Shootout was as irrational as the "Wonder Nine Hype" before. The 9x19mm is just one good defense/service pistol caliber with advantages and disadvantages compared to others.
It is my choice however but not my dogma. I'd also carry a .40, .357 Sig, .357Mag or - yes - a .22lr. And: I am very much looking forward to the 4,6x30: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.6x30mm
The bashing of the 9x19mm after the Miami Shootout was as irrational as the "Wonder Nine Hype" before. The 9x19mm is just one good defense/service pistol caliber with advantages and disadvantages compared to others.
It is my choice however but not my dogma. I'd also carry a .40, .357 Sig, .357Mag or - yes - a .22lr. And: I am very much looking forward to the 4,6x30: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.6x30mm
I think the FBI used this as an excuse to cover their butts, and, buy new guns, and ammunition.
9MM BALL ammo has a history of being very effective. It tumbles, and, 130 grains going sideways through you is not my idea of fun. Also, it's reputation was built being an effective submachine gun round. I have long reviewed ballistic results, and shooting results from 9mm. In my opinion, and my experience in being attacked, it's penetration is marginal with hollow point ammunition. I use 147 grain HXT in my 9mm, but, it doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies.
Likewise 45 ACP hollow points have been designed to expand quickly, and, likewise the penetration doesn't get me going much. I think 45 ACP might be better served as 45 Super, using a 260 grain bullet at 1000 fps, if HP's are desired.
In fact, SD ammo for 44 special and 44 magnum has also been neutered, using light bullets, and, expansion so reduces penetration that they also penetrate to the same depth as 9mm.
All that said, a heavier bullet seems to work more effectively, at least on game animals, for one reason, overall surface area. A 440 grain bullet, in .50 caliber, at 950 fps, non-expanding, is far more effective in both killing power, and effectiveness then the numbers indicate. Yes, it will punch a 5 foot long hole in a 2000 pound animal, but, the effect on the animal when it's hit is far more devastating then the ballistic numbers indicate. I bring this up because I think there is a wounding capacity that is not quantified, where large, heavy slow moving bullets go through the target at much higher speed then the light, parachuting HP's we've been sold, and, due to two holes, one in, and one out, and, the maintained speed through target, do more damage then some of our 'magic bullets'.
One wonders if in our quest for politically correct, limited penetration bullets, which, if you are going to stop armed gunmen in a residential area, and miss nearly 60 times, I can understand your concern, we haven't made some bad choices in ammunition?
I haven't gone over the shooting with enough detail. I'm wondering, did the bad guys use cars for cover? Would the outcome of the battle have been different if the ammunition choosen turned the cars from cover to only concealment? 9mm ball would have done just that.
Reading the FBI report. One thing jumps off the page: 145 shots fired, and, no over-penetration, no death of bystanders, etc...
9MM BALL ammo has a history of being very effective. It tumbles, and, 130 grains going sideways through you is not my idea of fun. Also, it's reputation was built being an effective submachine gun round. I have long reviewed ballistic results, and shooting results from 9mm. In my opinion, and my experience in being attacked, it's penetration is marginal with hollow point ammunition. I use 147 grain HXT in my 9mm, but, it doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies.
Likewise 45 ACP hollow points have been designed to expand quickly, and, likewise the penetration doesn't get me going much. I think 45 ACP might be better served as 45 Super, using a 260 grain bullet at 1000 fps, if HP's are desired.
In fact, SD ammo for 44 special and 44 magnum has also been neutered, using light bullets, and, expansion so reduces penetration that they also penetrate to the same depth as 9mm.
All that said, a heavier bullet seems to work more effectively, at least on game animals, for one reason, overall surface area. A 440 grain bullet, in .50 caliber, at 950 fps, non-expanding, is far more effective in both killing power, and effectiveness then the numbers indicate. Yes, it will punch a 5 foot long hole in a 2000 pound animal, but, the effect on the animal when it's hit is far more devastating then the ballistic numbers indicate. I bring this up because I think there is a wounding capacity that is not quantified, where large, heavy slow moving bullets go through the target at much higher speed then the light, parachuting HP's we've been sold, and, due to two holes, one in, and one out, and, the maintained speed through target, do more damage then some of our 'magic bullets'.
One wonders if in our quest for politically correct, limited penetration bullets, which, if you are going to stop armed gunmen in a residential area, and miss nearly 60 times, I can understand your concern, we haven't made some bad choices in ammunition?
I haven't gone over the shooting with enough detail. I'm wondering, did the bad guys use cars for cover? Would the outcome of the battle have been different if the ammunition choosen turned the cars from cover to only concealment? 9mm ball would have done just that.
Reading the FBI report. One thing jumps off the page: 145 shots fired, and, no over-penetration, no death of bystanders, etc...
To all those who have responded to this thread that all that can be learned from this event has already been learned and I should just go back and read the experts reports, I say this: I opened this thread because I HAD reread the reports after 20 years, and I noticed several things that I hadn't noticed or paid proper attention to back then. I thought maybe others might have the same experience and have questions too. This was stuff that was all in the original reports, but I didn't have enough knowledge then to question - particularly these three things: (1) Four of the eight FBI Agents were firing 38Special ammo in their 357 revolvers; thereby sacrificing both the power of a 357 cartrige AND the inheirent accuracy of a 38 Special round if fired from a 38 Special revolver. Why? I have read the answer to that in this thread; that it was the standard issue FBI load - so why did the FBI buy 357 revolvers anyway? (2) Several of the Agents were using revolvers with 2" barrels, thereby sacrificing about 25% more of the potential power (velocity anyway)of the 38 Special +P rounds they were using, plus costing them a long enough sight plane to achieve the accuracy that this shootout absolutely demanded. Why? Answer - I'm still not sure, but apparently these were the weapons the FBI issued them. (3) Reports from the aftermath of this shootout were that the FBI blamed it on failures of the 9mm round, but in rereading the reports it was clear that only 3 Agents of the 8 involved had used 9mm's that day, and while those 9mm's that were used clearly did not achieve desired results, that was probably due to the ineffective light HP ammo that was used in them. Many people have responded to this thread that the tragedy that day was the result of bad planning, bad tactics, and bad execution, and that may all be true. I don't dispute it. But those are things that LEO's probably have to apply differently in different situations. but IMHO all LEO's should have the certainty of knowing they are firing the most powerful gun that they personally can fire with a high degree of accuracy, and that the sight plane of that gun is long enough for them to achieve that high degree of accuracy with it. I've read somewhere that 95 % of the LEO's who carry 357's carry them with 38 Special +P loads. If I were an ammunition manufacturer, the conclusion I would draw from this, is the same conclusion that I think the FBI could have drawn after the Miami shootout; that what was needed was a round of 38 Special +P power but in a 357 magnum case.
vox rationis
New member
Based on what I've seen of Fackler's work, I am not aware of 9mm ball doing any significant tumbling that would increase the wound volume significantly. The only exception to that, that I am aware of, is that the long defunct International Combat Arms tested a truncated cone 9mm FMJ round as made by Fiocchi into gelatin, and it did yaw quite a bit. The authors of the article claimed that this yawing increased the wound volume, but I don't think they scientifically quantified that in any way.
But yeah, prior to the Miami shootout most would have thought anyone was crazy to suggest that ball ammo would have been better than what they fielded, but in retrospect your run of the mill 124 grain FMJ military round would have been a much better choice than those Silvertips.
Why no FMJ for LE then? I guess the FBI, like most LE agencies, wants its 12-18" of penetration but also a round that expands to a larger diameter than the original caliber (as stated in those 10mm notes), obviously to maximize wound volume/incapacitation potential, because regarding overpenetration, even the FBI admits in its material that the issue is essentially a red herring; and as we know most JHP's more or less act as ball ammo anyway when going through barriers.
But yeah, prior to the Miami shootout most would have thought anyone was crazy to suggest that ball ammo would have been better than what they fielded, but in retrospect your run of the mill 124 grain FMJ military round would have been a much better choice than those Silvertips.
Why no FMJ for LE then? I guess the FBI, like most LE agencies, wants its 12-18" of penetration but also a round that expands to a larger diameter than the original caliber (as stated in those 10mm notes), obviously to maximize wound volume/incapacitation potential, because regarding overpenetration, even the FBI admits in its material that the issue is essentially a red herring; and as we know most JHP's more or less act as ball ammo anyway when going through barriers.
The argument for 9mm has always been the ability to score multiple, accurate hits, with little recoil, quicker then most people can with 45 ACP, or 40. I think that with current ammo, that is still a valid position. I see way more people at the range capable of shooting quickly a 9mm, accurately, then any other caliber, except maybe 22lr.
Cumulative damage, rapid multiple hits is what so sells people on 00 shotgun loads. It's always 9 .38's at 1400 fps is devastating. So, double or triple taps by 9mm ball is NOT going to be ignored by the target.
I have a similar argument with a Mac 10. You want stopping power? Get hit with 7000 grains of ball ammo in less then 2 seconds. THAT'S stopping power.
For LEO, it might have been a better alternative to go with burst fire pistols, in .380 or 9mm, with ball ammo, and large magazines. This is all conjecture on my part, since I've never fired a full auto Glock, etc. in 9mm.
.380 and 45 macs, yes, and, 9mm mac, in semi auto.
As for Fackler on 9mm tumbling, you didn't try very hard. Google and 10 seconds:
Cumulative damage, rapid multiple hits is what so sells people on 00 shotgun loads. It's always 9 .38's at 1400 fps is devastating. So, double or triple taps by 9mm ball is NOT going to be ignored by the target.
I have a similar argument with a Mac 10. You want stopping power? Get hit with 7000 grains of ball ammo in less then 2 seconds. THAT'S stopping power.
For LEO, it might have been a better alternative to go with burst fire pistols, in .380 or 9mm, with ball ammo, and large magazines. This is all conjecture on my part, since I've never fired a full auto Glock, etc. in 9mm.
.380 and 45 macs, yes, and, 9mm mac, in semi auto.
As for Fackler on 9mm tumbling, you didn't try very hard. Google and 10 seconds:
armsmaster270
New member
I'm not positive but I think at that time it was proceedure for the FBI to keep their long arms in the trunk until needed and due to the way the stop was made in such an unplanned way the long guns were in the trunk instead of in the cars. Correct me if i'm wrong.
vox rationis
New member
It is extremely common to use .38 special +P rounds out of .357 mag revolvers. Like others have said the decrease in accuracy is insignificant. Most people find full house .357's out of shorter barreled revolvers to have too much recoil and blast, so it is natural to use a .38 +P round. Why not use a bonafide .38 gun rated for +P rounds? Because you would then be stuck with a less versatile gun that was also less controllable when using the more powerful +P ammo.