1986 FBI-Miami shootout

If I remember correctly, in addition to the agent who lost his glasses:

1. One agent lost his primary carry gun in the auto accident because he had it lying on the seat next to him and it went flying.

2. None of the agents were wearing bullet resistant vests even though they were going after extremely dangerous individuals.

3. Even though the agents knew that Mattix and/or Platt were armed with rifles, their own rifles were locked securely in the trunks of their cars.

That's four big no nos right there. There were a lot more.
 
And, I generally agree with Sturmgewehre. Penetration trumps everything except placement. Poke a hole, poke the biggest hole you can, poke it all the way through. Your bullet must be able to penetrate to a vital organ, or the spine no matter what it has to get through. Take a good look and be realistic when you see some pictures of the thugs out there. Watch "Gangland" on the History(?) channel. If you feel comfortble knowing your 115 gr 9mm Uber expanding hollowpoint has enough horsepower to get through some buffed up 350 pound product of the penal system if he is holding your kid hostage and the only shot you have is through his rib cage and all tha associated muscle and fat, go for it.

I will not neceassarily make an argument for ball ammo. But, a good semiwadcutter, a shallow heavy HP at good velocity may all serve you well.

I carried a Kahr 9mm for about a year. I got on a public transit train once and a really wired big fellow got on the train. He was considerably bigger in wieght, size and muscle that a good sized feral hog and, had a bigger (I'm guessing) brain. I would not take on a feral pig with 9mm. Physics doesn't lie. If that bullet, out of that gun would not stop one 350 pound animal that might try and kill me, why should it work on another? (I use ther term animal as a purely descriptive term, rerfering to a warm blooded creature with bones, muscles, blood and a heartbeat. Man is an animal in the biological sense.)
 
Very interesting responses so far. I'm not a LEO so I'll leave the criticism of tactics to those who are, but this all came up on the fly from a stakeout, so maybe the Agents should have had vests and long guns but as far as stopping the bg's goes, I don't see what else they could have done after the bg's were spotted. I have to appreciate that the FBI took the bg's on under less than ideal conditions and "brought justice to them" as George W would have phrased it, unfortunately at a tragic cost to themselves too. But they protected the public by their heroic actions that day and they deserve nothing but credit for their actions. All those men were heroes, particularly those who gave their lives and Agent Mireles. I don't see any evidence from the reports of this gunfight that indicates any of the superiority claimed by some of the posts on this thread for the rifle and shotguns that were involved over the handguns used in this battle. In fact, the short ranges involved seems to have practically negated any advantage for long guns. Agent McNeil ended bg Matix's participation in the fight with a 38 Special +P round to Matix's head immediately after Matix opened the gunfight with an ineffective shotgun blast. Agents Grogan and Dove then fired a total of 29 rounds of 9mm hp's at bg Platt before he was able to get out of his car and kill them with the 223. One of those 9mm rounds hit Platt with what should have been a killing shot, but it did not penetrate Platt's heart as it should have. As a result, it seriously wounded him but did not stop him. However, it was a perfectly placed shot and almost certainly would have killed Platt on the spot if the bullet fired had been a 9mm ball round instead of a light fast hp whose expansion stopped it too soon. The 38 Special +P's in this fight in particular appear to have been very effective revolver rounds when they were delivered on target (which would have probably occurred more often if all the agents who were firing 38 Special +P ammo had been armed with longer sight-planed 6 inch barrel revolvers instead of 2 and 4 inchers). Anyway, if Agent Dove's perfect 9mm hit on Platt had killed him, instead of just greviously wounding him, the fight would have been over with 2 agents wounded and two dead bg's. IMHO, that too-light and too quickly expanding fast 9mm hp round that did not penetrate far enough to hit Platt's heart that day is the real bottom line cause that two FBI agents were killed in that shootout.
 
The so-called "failure" of the FBI's choice of guns and ammunition is often taken out of context

The following is a detailed article about the shootout.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

The FBI agents fired a grand total of 77-78 rounds. Matix was hit six times and Platt was hit twelve, meaning that the FBI agents completely missed at least 59 times. To put this in perspective, only 13.86% of their shots even hit the intended target at all. Now, as to the shots fired. Matix only fired one shot from his shotgun (it hit the grill of a car and did not injure anyone) before he was shot in the head and essentially taken out of the fight. Platt was the only one to cause injury to the FBI agents. Platt was shot 12 times but only 4 of those shots hit anywhere even remotely close to a vital organ. Platt was shot three times in the chest and once in the head. The following exerpt details Platt's first chest wound.

As Platt crawled through the passenger side window, one of Dove’s 9mm bullets hit his right upper arm, just above the inside crook of the elbow. According to Dr. Anderson, the bullet passed under the bone, through the deltoid, triceps and teres major muscles, and severed the brachial arteries and veins. The bullet exited the inner side of his upper arm near the armpit, penetrated his chest between the fifth and sixth ribs, and passed almost completely through the right lung before stopping. The bullet came to a rest about an inch short of penetrating the wall of the heart.

(However, the accompanying autopsy report states that the bullet passed through the biceps muscle, and the autopsy photograph seems to support the medical examiner’s observation. The autopsy photograph shows an entry wound of the upper right arm, just above the inside bend of the elbow, in the location where the biceps muscle begins to show definition. The photograph suggests that the bullet passed through the biceps muscle of the upper arm in front of the bone. We discussed our observation with Dr. Anderson and he agreed with us. He stated that he would correct this error in a future revision to his report.)

At autopsy, Platt’s right lung was completely collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1300 ml of blood, suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. Dr. Anderson believes that Platt’s first wound (right upper arm/chest wound B) was unsurvivable, and was the primary injury responsible for Platt’s death.

Platt's second chest wound is detailed in this excerpt

Dr. Anderson believes that shortly thereafter, Platt incurred his sixth wound (Platt right upper arm/chest wound C), which was inflicted by Risner. The bullet entered the back of Platt’s right upper arm (mid arm), passed through the triceps muscle and exited below the armpit. It then entered the muscles in the side of his chest and came to a rest in the soft tissues of the right side back, below the shoulder blade. The bullet did not penetrate the rib cage and the resultant wound was not serious.

The wound to Platt's head is detailed here

Mireles first shot at Platt hit the back of the front seat behind Platt’s left shoulder. Dr. Anderson theorizes that the sound of the gunshot would have caused Platt to turn his head to the left to look for the source of the gunfire. Mireles second shot then hit Platt above the outer edge of the right eyebrow (Platt scalp wound A). The weight of the projectile that was recovered from Platt’s scalp was about 19 grains, suggesting that the bullet hit the driver’s side window post and fragmented. After the fragment penetrated the skin it ricocheted off the curvature of the right side of Platt’s forehead, and traveled between the skin and the exterior surface of the skull for a distance of about 2 inches before it stopped above the right temple. The fragment did not penetrate the cranium.

Platt's third and final chest wound is detailed here


By this time Mireles had reached the driver’s side door of Grogan/Dove’s car when he fired his sixth and final shot. Mireles extended his gun through the driver’s side window and fired at Platt (Platt chest/spine wound J). The bullet penetrated Platt’s chest just below the left collar bone, traveled through the musculature of the shoulder and neck and stopped in the fifth cervical vertebra (C5), where it bruised the spinal cord. Dr. Anderson observes that the wound path of this bullet through Platt’s body could only have occurred if Platt were lying on his back on the front seat.

Platt's other eight injuries were all in extremities (feet, arms, and legs) and would not generally be called incapacitating hits regardless of caliber. Of the four possibly incapacitating hits to Platt three failed to do so (the fourth and final hit ended the gunfight). The first chest wound was really the only "good" hit that failed to stop him (although analaysis concluded that it was fatal if not immediately so). The conclusion here is that if the bullet had penetrated the extra inch to the heart it may have incapacitated Platt sooner. However, if the bullet didn't have to penetrate completely through Platt's arm first, it likely would have penetrated sufficiently to reach his heart. However, it is highly debatable as to wheter this shot would've indeed ended the fight or not as it's a pretty tough individual who can continue a gunfight with a collapsed lung.

Platt's second chest wound appears to me to have come from the front at an angle to go through the back of his arm and into his side and back. Based on the bullet's trajectory, it seems unlikely to me that any vital organs would've been significantly damaged if another caliber had been used.

The wound to Platt's head was a bullet fragment due to a ricochet. As we all know bullets are extremely unpredictable when they ricochet so it's just about impossible to know if a different caliber would have performed any better.

So, it seems to me that the FBI's condemnation of their ammunition is based on what 1.3% of their shots (one bullet) might have done if it had penetrated further. Even if the agents had been armed with a different caliber or ammunition, there is no guarantee that the fight would've been over any sooner. Because of this, I'm inclined to think that the FBI used their guns and ammunition as a scapegoat to keep from taking criticism over their tactics and marksmanship (or lack thereof).
 
It is almost like these agents had never heard of another shootout in which the 2 FBI agents were primarily armed with a subgun and a semi auto shotgun while the primary arms of the 2 perps were a subgun, semi auto rifle and a fully automatic rifle. Both sides were in vehicles, then the gunfight erupted.

About the same outcome. One of the perps, fatally wounded, advanced on the agents with a semi auto rifle and killed them both.


Anyone know what incident I am referring to?
 
It is almost like these agents had never heard of another shootout in which the 2 FBI agents were primarily armed with a subgun and a semi auto shotgun while the primary arms of the 2 perps were a subgun, semi auto rifle and a fully automatic rifle. Both sides were in vehicles, then the gunfight erupted.

About the same outcome. One of the perps, fatally wounded, advanced on the agents with a semi auto rifle and killed them both.


Anyone know what incident I am referring to?

Sounds vaguely like the incident in which Baby Face Nelson was killed except I think Baby Face had a Thompson rather than a rifle.
 
Outstanding Webley.

Baby Face did have a Thompson. When it jammed, he used his partners high cap M1907 Winchester self loader to kill the two agents.

Happened back in 1934. We can all learn from history, or repeat it like those poor agents in Miami did.
 
What I did say is if that bullet had penetrated just another 1" it *could* or likely would have ended the fight much sooner. That's a fact.
It's also a fact that there were numerous other "ifs" that "*could* or likely would have ended the fight much sooner" and yet the discussion almost always tends to center around this single bullet and the fact that it stopped short of the heart.

One might just as easily say: "If Platt's arm had been in a slightly different position the bullet wouldn't have had to go through it first and it would likely have gone through his heart and exited his torso which *could* or likely would have ended the fight much sooner.""

Or, one might say: "Had Gordon McNeill been armed with a high-capacity 9mm instead of a revolver he *could* or likely would have ended the fight much sooner". McNeill had excellent positioning early in the fight and some credit one of his shots with taking Matix out of the fight before it even got underway. Unfortunately he ran dry very quickly and was unable to reload because of an bullet wound to his hand. According to Ayoob, he was shot in the neck at close range while he struggled with his revolver. A high-cap semi wouldn't have run dry as soon and would have been easier to reload with an injured hand. McNeill would likely have still had rounds in his gun (or been able to reload) and had the positioning and mindset to kill Platt when he advanced on him. Instead he was eliminated as a factor by the low capacity of his firearm and the inability to reload it one-handed.

In other words, instead of concluding that a 9mm failure was a major factor in the debacle, one could accurately conclude that McNeill's lack of a high-cap 9mm (pretty much all that was available in high-capacity in those days) was a major factor in the debacle. But no one EVER seems to take that position--I wonder why?
So, it seems to me that the FBI's condemnation of their ammunition is based on what 1.3% of their shots (one bullet) might have done if it had penetrated further. Even if the agents had been armed with a different caliber or ammunition, there is no guarantee that the fight would've been over any sooner. Because of this, I'm inclined to think that the FBI used their guns and ammunition as a scapegoat to keep from taking criticism over their tactics and marksmanship (or lack thereof).
This is along the same lines of what I was getting at in my earlier post. To ignore 70+ rounds in favor of focusing on a "what if" about a single round doesn't make sense.

The "one more inch" story is dramatic, attention getting, easy to grasp, easy to address, and doesn't impugn any of the decisions or actions of the agents involved. Very convenient, don't you think?
 
The best book I have read on the subject is by Dr. W. French Anderson entitled: "Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight". You can get in from Paladin Press for about $25 I think. Try Amazon.

Some things I learned from reading that and some other accounts from the FBI FOIA website.

Mike Irwin said:
2. None of the agents were wearing bullet resistant vests even though they were going after extremely dangerous individuals.

3. Even though the agents knew that Mattix and/or Platt were armed with rifles, their own rifles were locked securely in the trunks of their cars.

The literature I have read is that the agents only had with them handguns and two shotguns. Mireles was the only one who brought his into play. Other agents in the area did have rifles and automatic weapons but were not at the scene. The vests the agents had would not have protected them against the Mini-14 5.56 mm ammo. One agent did but his on but did not strap it up.

The strategy of the FBI team was to mount a rolling stakeout in the area where Platt & Matix had been brazenly operating, ID them and follow them to an area where they could make an arrest without incident.

Unfortunately, Grogan and Dove ID'ed the stolen car being used and were then "made" by the two BGs. The agents were left with a bad situation where they could try and take them down in a relatively low populated suburban road or let them go back out onto the Dixie Highway and be around a whole lot of civilians. Had they not been made I think they could have got them both easily but they had bad luck IMO.

The other irony is that a witness had seen Platt & Matix change vehicles after a previous robbery into a white pickup truck. A witness who the two had shot and left for dead but who lived could have ID'ed the driver license photos of all white pickup trucks in the area the FBI had requested that arrived THE NEXT DAY after the shooting. Had the FBI had those photos, Platt & Matix would have been taken in their homes probably alive.

Para Bellum said:
and if there's any chance, all that helps you is PLACEMENT.

According to Edmundo Mireles Jerry Dove acheived a "million dollar" shot on Platt that was unsurvivable. Agent Gordon McNeill with one good shot took out Matix early in the fight before he was wounded by Platt. Dr. French documents the agents had very good marksmanship and got a lot of good hits. Neither of those guys would have survived the gunfight.

But as Dr. Anderson points out: "If you can still think and move, then you can still fight; only when your brain or heart stops, or you choose to give up, does your ability to fight back cease" I would also say that if you read some Medal of Honor citations (not that Platt or Matix were of this ilk!) you can read aout how incredible the human body can be if the will commands it.

Frankly, I think the agents did the best they could but sometimes your number is up.
 
One might just as easily say: "If Platt's arm had been in a slightly different position the bullet wouldn't have had to go through it first and it would likely have gone through his heart and exited his torso which *could* or likely would have ended the fight much sooner.""

Or, one might say: "Had Gordon McNeill been armed with a high-capacity 9mm instead of a revolver he *could* or likely would have ended the fight much sooner". McNeill had excellent positioning early in the fight and some credit one of his shots with taking Matix out of the fight before it even got underway. Unfortunately he ran dry very quickly and was unable to reload because of an bullet wound to his hand. According to Ayoob, he was shot in the neck at close range while he struggled with his revolver. A high-cap semi wouldn't have run dry as soon and would have been easier to reload with an injured hand. McNeill would likely have still had rounds in his gun (or been able to reload) and had the positioning and mindset to kill Platt when he advanced on him. Instead he was eliminated as a factor by the low capacity of his firearm and the inability to reload it one-handed.

I think that probably the most compelling argument is "If the FBI agents hadn't missed 59 times, the fight might have turned out quite differently."
 
"The literature I have read is that the agents only had with them handguns and two shotguns. Mireles was the only one who brought his into play. Other agents in the area did have rifles and automatic weapons but were not at the scene. The vests the agents had would not have protected them against the Mini-14 5.56 mm ammo. One agent did but his on but did not strap it up."

I seem to recall there being at least one M16-type rifle in the trunk of one of the FBI cars, but I may be wrong about that.

As for the body armor, it may not have done much against the Mini 14, but I included it more to show the bad series of tactical choices that the agents made.
 
FBI failures include the fact that one car, containing a full auto sub gun, was blocks away at a branch bank, where the agent was chatting with a teller after a bathroom break.

The officer who had his revolver slide off the seat put it there because wearing it was uncomfortable.

One interesting analysis is that this fire fight was a direct result of two very different concepts for lethal force encounters. Platt and Matix were trained in the military concepts of fire and maneuver, where each threat was immediately taken under fire and neutralized or suppressed. The FBI was trained in the classic police concept of containment, while awaiting backup/ overwhelming force. The police worry about where expended rounds may go, whether innocent bystanders may be hit, and how the legal justifications will work out.
The result of such a meeting between these two lethal force mindsets/ doctrines is pretty easily predicted.
 
Mike Irwin said:
I seem to recall there being at least one M16-type rifle in the trunk of one of the FBI cars, but I may be wrong about that.

Mike, according to Edmundo Mireles statement on page 121, there were agents armed with an MP5 and an M-16 but not on the scene. When they arrived the fight was over. Again, I don't think the agents planned to fight it the way they did but were "made" by the BGs and had to do it right then. Not sure where the other agents were or why they weren't all together.

GreyOne said:
One interesting analysis is that this fire fight was a direct result of two very different concepts for lethal force encounters. Platt and Matix were trained in the military concepts of fire and maneuver, where each threat was immediately taken under fire and neutralized or suppressed. The FBI was trained in the classic police concept of containment, while awaiting backup/ overwhelming force. The police worry about where expended rounds may go, whether innocent bystanders may be hit, and how the legal justifications will work out. The result of such a meeting between these two lethal force mindsets/ doctrines is pretty easily predicted.

Which is exactly what Gordon McNeill said on an old interview I watched a while back. In fact, while the gunfight was going on civilians were driving throught the firezone!:eek: Unreal, that some of them weren't killed but the agents held their fire as they came through and the BGs didn't care. Very good point! Platt & Matix used classic military fire & maneuver.

GreyOne said:
The officer who had his revolver slide off the seat put it there because wearing it was uncomfortable.

Actually, I think that was Hanlon who thought he would have faster access to the weapon if if was out of the holster. The collision with the BGs car threw it around and he ended up using his BUG instead. Not good tactics but he was pumped up I am sure.
 
In other words, instead of concluding that a 9mm failure was a major factor in the debacle, one could accurately conclude that McNeill's lack of a high-cap 9mm (pretty much all that was available in high-capacity in those days) was a major factor in the debacle. But no one EVER seems to take that position--I wonder why?
I'm not sure what your point ultimately is.

Are you saying the single bullet is a non-issue and should never be discussed? If someone brings it up then we're to assume they believe this is the sole reason the FBI lost the gunfight?

As to your point, how many agencies including the FBI still issued revolvers 5 years after the shootout? Related? I don't know.

Sure, we could "what if" it to death. But as I said, the fact of the matter is a known poorly designed bullet, that even Winchester agreed was flawed in that they redesigned it several times after the shooting, stopped just shy of puncturing his heart. Regardless of the position of his arm, the bullet stopped after about 9" when most experts would agree 12"+ is required. No matter how you slice it, the Silver Tip failed. If the heart had been punctured, would Platt have continued to fight? I don't know. What do you think?

Sure it could have rained or lightening could have struck Platt... But that's irrelevant. What's relevant is a single bullet found its mark, perhaps by chance, but it stopped shy of that magical 12" and Platt wasn't immediately incapacitated. Not much of a "what if" really. It's more of a "no shiznit".

From the FBI, whom you've quoted before in ballistics discussions, so I know you respect their research and opinions:

The critical wounding components for handgun ammunition, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavity.33 The bullet must penetrate sufficiently to pass through vital organs and be able to do so from less than optimal angles. For example, a shot from the side through an arm must penetrate at least 10-12 inches to pass through the heart. A bullet fired from the front through the abdomen must penetrate about 7 inches in a slender adult just to reach the major blood vessels in the back of the abdominal cavity. Penetration must be sufficiently deep to reach and pass through vital organs, and the permanent cavity must be large enough to maximize tissue destruction and consequent hemorrhaging.

Several design approaches have been made in handgun ammunition which are intended to increase the wounding effectiveness of the bullet. Most notable of these is the use of a hollow point bullet designed to expand on impact.

Expansion accomplishes several things. On the positive side, it increases the frontal area of the bullet and thereby increases the amount of tissue disintegrated in the bullet's path. On the negative side, expansion limits penetration. It can prevent the bullet from penetrating to vital organs, especially if the projectile is of relatively light mass and the penetration must be through several inches of fat, muscle, or clothing.34

Increased bullet mass will increase penetration. Increased velocity will increase penetration but only until the bullet begins to deform, at which point increased velocity decreases penetration. Permanent cavity can be increased by the use of expanding bullets, and/or larger diameter bullets, which have adequate penetration. However, in no case should selection of a bullet be made where bullet expansion is necessary to achieve desired performance.35 Handgun bullets expand in the human target only 60-70% of the time at best. Damage to the hollow point by hitting bone, glass, or other intervening obstacles can prevent expansion. Clothing fibers can wrap the nose of the bullet in a cocoon like manner and prevent expansion. Insufficient impact velocity caused by short barrels and/or longer range will prevent expansion, as will simple manufacturing variations. Expansion must never be the basis for bullet selection, but considered a bonus when, and if, it occurs. Bullet selection should be determined based on penetration first, and the unexpanded diameter of the bullet second, as that is all the shooter can reliably expect.

It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.36

Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified.

An issue that must be addressed is the fear of over penetration widely expressed on the part of law enforcement. The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated. Any review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subjects at all. It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss the subject entirely.

Also, a bullet that completely penetrates a subject will give up a great deal of energy doing so. The skin on the exit side of the body is tough and flexible. Experiments have shown that it has the same resistance to bullet passage as approximately four inches of muscle tissue.37

Choosing a bullet because of relatively shallow penetration will seriously compromise weapon effectiveness, and needlessly endanger the lives of the law enforcement officers using it. No law enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over penetrated his adversary, and virtually none have ever been sued for hitting an innocent bystander through an adversary. On the other hand, tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough.

I wonder where they got that info from? :) Sounds like Dade County...

Now, again, I'm not saying when discussing this event we can say "it was bullet failure that caused this tragedy" - case closed. Not even close. That's just one of MANY lessons to be taken from this incident. There were more critical failures that occurred that the agents had more control over which could have changed the outcome. I think most experts would agree on that point.
 
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Every handgun is a very weak firearm, there is no big difference between them (from .38 spl to .44 Mag)

So based on this premise if you go deer or hog hunting, might as well leave your .44 magnum at home, and take your .38 instead ey? I don't think so my friend, I would stick to the .44 magnum in that scenario; point being, there is most certainly a difference in penetration and wound volume when comparing those two rounds. I understand your point, but I think that you went a few calibers too far in trying to make it :)
 
Wrong question, right answer

Mike Irwin said:
Mirelles finally killed both men with shots from a .357 loaded with .38 Spl. +P or +P+ LSWCHP.

Miami wasn't so much a failure of firearms or ammunition, it was a failure of FBI tactics, training, planning, and most of all, execution.

Just about everything that could go wrong for the agents did go wrong because they, in large part, did the wrong things.

The FBI agents in this particular assignment were ready to arrest two very dangerous men. They were not prepared to fight for their lives and possibly kill two very dangerous men.

Someone mentioned if they agents had rifles, it would have made a difference. Every agent had a shotgun in their car; only one made it out of the car an into the fight. M-16s are passable rifles, but don't do much good on the floor in the back seat when the shooter is out of the car.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not speaking contemptuously of the FBI agents involved in the incident. All of them got into the action and did what they figured they should be doing. But their plan was sketchy at best and they didn't follow it very well. Specifically, they almost all left their shotguns in their cars, and they didn't make very many hits early on.

And they were not mentally prepared to kill anyone.
 
It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.36

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bad-guy-743907.jpg


One can also see how relevant having adequate penetration is when considering the fact that if a would be killer is shooting at you, and you are shooting back in the high chest/high COM, it is not inconceivable that the rounds will hit one or both of the assailant's upper extremities (especially if he is using an isosceles or weaver type stance). A bullet that is heavy enough and has a construction that allows less deviation and adequate penetration would be crucial in order to get hits deep enough for incapacitation.

So I don't see anything controversial in the FBI contending that one needs a minimum of 12" of penetration.
 
I do. I think, from that picture, that their maximum depth of 18" should be the minimum, in particular in light of body armour, and huge folks that tend to be criminals(Anyone have an average armed felon physical profile around?).

It seems to go with the size. I was in a recent game, in a public bathroom, and, two HUGE kids, like 300 plus pounds, said, kidding, barely, that we have the ref here, we can beat him up...
These where high school kids, and, they knew the power of their size...
 
I do. I think, from that picture, that their maximum depth of 18" should be the minimum

I'm not sure I would disagree with you actually. A round going through a muscular outstretched forearm and arm may have to go a good 6-12 inches of penetration before it even winds up in the thoracic cavity.

It seems to go with the size. I was in a recent game, in a public bathroom, and, two HUGE kids, like 300 plus pounds, said, kidding, barely, that we have the ref here, we can beat him up...

This reminds me of that poor trooper that shot his extremely fat attacker with 4 rounds of 125 grain .357mag JHP rounds that all expanded well, but underpenetrated, allowing the attacker to kill the trooper with a single shot from what I remember to be a .22 handgun. The killer survived the exchange if I remember correctly.
 
I do. I think, from that picture, that their maximum depth of 18" should be the minimum, in particular in light of body armour, and huge folks that tend to be criminals(Anyone have an average armed felon physical profile around?).
What exactly would a handgun round capable of 18" of penetration do to body armor?

In my experience - not much. :)

Now, I would agree that chubby perps, extremely muscular perps, or perps wearing heavy clothing can all present a bit of a penetration problem for the average handgun round in a service pistol (note not many agencies issue .44 Mags these days). Personally, this is why I still punt and carry hot loaded ball ammo. I've seen many studies where hollow points both fail to expand and fail to penetrate to optimum depths in real world shootings. While ball might not be the end-all in bullet design, it gives me that warm fuzzy feeling when carrying it as I know I'll likely squeeze those last few inches of penetration out of the rounds. It is also the ultimate design feeding reliability.
 
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