1986 FBI-Miami shootout

Great thread, Gents!

And did you notice that we had an Internet first: a mention of Piggly Wiggly in a gun forum :D

The OP asked about agents carrying 6-inch wheelguns. Yes, that would give better accuracy than snubbies, more power and a shorter time between shots.

But nobody will carry them. That's the problem with his suggestion (if DG45 is a her, I do apologize). The only plain clothes officer to carry that size was. well, Dirty Harry IIRC. And I just bet that he didn't actually carry it under that tight fitting coat.

The FBI carried 3-inch K-frames IIRC and mine is a great shooter. I can shoot it much better than a 2-incher. I think that it is a good compromise between 2-inch revolvers and 'Dirty Harry'.

Bart Noir
 
As Platt crawled through the passenger side window, one of Dove’s 9mm bullets hit his right upper arm, just above the inside crook of the elbow. According to Dr. Anderson, the bullet passed under the bone, through the deltoid, triceps and teres major muscles, and severed the brachial arteries and veins. The bullet exited the inner side of his upper arm near the armpit, penetrated his chest between the fifth and sixth ribs, and passed almost completely through the right lung before stopping. The bullet came to a rest about an inch short of penetrating the wall of the heart.
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This first shot of 9mm (a 115gr Winchester Silvertip) took a lot of the blame for the outcome, and I for one don't think it was fair to the caliber or bullet.

That round traveled through about 14" of flesh while expanding very respectably.

"If only it had gone another inch" became a sort of battlecry afterwards and...you know, I'm not buying it.

Welll....OK, not fully :).

For the record, I'm typing this while in public and CCWing in Phoenix AZ. The gun in my fanny pack is a 357Mag 4.75" barrel. The first two rounds are Speer 135gr 38+P which I believe will deliver performance about on par with what that Winchester 115 Silvertip did: between 12" and 14" and decent expansion. (Remember, my gun isn't a snubby plus Ruger barrels tend to spit bullets "on the fast side", so 14" penetration isn't an unreasonable hope.) They'll likely dump about 250ft/lbs energy.

IF those two aren't adequate, the next four are full-house 357, Speed 125gr Gold Dot projectile as loaded by Doubletap Ammo. These are closer to 800ft/lbs energy.

My thinking is that a "normal gunfight" runs one or two shots fired. Out past that, it's by definition an unusually wild scene and it's time to get freaky in the ammo department. By the time shot #3 is up to bat, with any luck bystanders have ducked or ran away and I can start throwing big power...and with my sound profile changing (a whole lot) some or all goblins may think somebody else joined the party on my side.

COURT PLAN AFTERWARDS: if a DA thinks the four Doubletaps are "too wild" or something, I would remind him/her that when a cop feels like things are abnormally violent, he/she grabs Mr. 12ga which throws down a LOT more than 800ft/lbs energy. or a rifle which likewise tops 800 and might beat a shotty.

So how much of this is affected by my read on the Miami '86 shootout? Well, a little. My take is, sometimes an abnormal situation needs abnormal power levels BUT my gun also has upgraded sights...because placement matters more than caliber or bullet construction.
 
Bart:
You are totally right on the 3" snub, vs. 2", or less.

More thought is that while the .357 magic rounds are 125's, at 1400-1900 fps, they don't penetrate well, unless non-expanding bullets are used.

Start looking at bullets that actually go 16-18" in gello, and, the field gets cut down a lot. SD ammo does NOT give me the warm and fuzzies....

Unless it's in .308, or 7.62 x 54R...
 
That round traveled through about 14" of flesh while expanding very respectably.
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Where are you coming up with that number? I am 6'5 and built pretty well, and I measured the distance from my shoulder (my widest point) to the center of my chest and I came up with about 10". Platt was smaller than me and very lean.
 
Then can we make you the poster child for more penetration?
Measure shoulder to shoulder, and, how about through extended arm to chest???
 
I doubt I have anything useful to add to the conversation, but I hope it continues, I'm sure I'm not the only one who is reading it and enjoying the discussion.:)
 
Forgive me for jumping back into my own thread, and getting it off track a little bit, but how much of a hollow point bullets energy is lost in deforming itself instead of in delivering a blow to the target? If you don't get my drift, think of a Subaru travelling at top speed hitting a stationary dump truck that's loaded with crushed rock. How much of that impact is absorbed by the dump truck and how much of it is absorbed by the Subaru? Now think about when a hollow point hits it's target.
PS: Surprisingly, so far, no one has posted any further comment about the Miami shootout 357 revolvers being loaded with 38 Special +P ammo, so I'll comment again on that. IMHO if you're going to shoot 38 Special ammo, you should do it from the high quality 38 Special revolvers which are built especially for that round and which do give considerably better accuracy with 38 Special bullets than 357 revolvers do. The 38 Special +P rounds that were fired in that Miami shootout all seem to have been of adequate stopping power, but most of them were fired from 357's and there just weren't many hits until Agent Mireles started shooting his revolver at very close range. I have always wondered why anybody ever buys (or carrys) a 357 revolver but then doesn't load it with the very accurate and potent 357 loads that are readily availiable and that the 357 revolver is primarily designed to shoot. Is carrying a 357 just a macho man thing? Hey, I exempt the FBI guys who were in that Miami shootout from any implications that they were anything less than stone cold courageous so please don't read anything detrimental toward them into that last remark. Those guys had stones. But really, does the department compel its agents to use 38 Special only in 357's? If so, why? (and don't give me that fear of "overpenetration" stuff; if that's the answer, then get a 38 Special revolver to shoot it in.)
 
PS: Surprisingly, so far, no one has posted any further comment about the Miami shootout 357 revolvers being loaded with 38 Special +P ammo, so I'll comment again on that. IMHO if you're going to shoot 38 Special ammo, you should do it from the high quality 38 Special revolvers which are built especially for that round and which do give considerably better accuracy with 38 Special bullets than 357 revolvers do. The 38 Special +P rounds that were fired in that Miami shootout all seem to have been of adequate stopping power, but most of them were fired from 357's and there just weren't many hits until Agent Mireles started shooting his revolver at very close range. I have always wondered why anybody ever buys (or carrys) a 357 revolver but then doesn't load it with the very accurate and potent 357 loads that are readily availiable and that the 357 revolver is primarily designed to shoot. Is carrying a 357 just a macho man thing? Hey, I exempt the FBI guys who were in that Miami shootout from any implications that they were anything less than stone cold courageous so please don't read anything detrimental toward them into that last remark. Those guys had stones. But really, does the department compel its agents to use 38 Special only in 357's? If so, why? (and don't give me that fear of "overpenetration" stuff; if that's the answer, then get a 38 Special revolver to shoot it in.)
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The only reason that I can think of that the FBI agents loaded .38's in their revolvers was because they didn't like the extra recoil and blast of a .357 Magnum. You ask why not get a .38 revolver then and the answer is that they were issued .357's. While you are correct that .38's are not typically as accurate out of a .357 revolver as they are a .38 revolver, the difference is usually not very much and certainly not enough to be meaningful in the '86 shootout (they were missing with their 9mm's and shotguns too). While I generally agree with you that a .357 Magnum is much better than a .38 Special, I think it's impossible to say that a Magnum would have definately ended the fight sooner.
 
Are you saying the single bullet is a non-issue and should never be discussed?
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Not at all, I am only saying that it's less of an issue than it has been made and shouldn't be discussed as much as it has. I'm also saying that it was a convenient scapegoat chosen from many worthy candidates for that position. It's not the crux of the fight that it has been made out to be but rather a quick and easy explanation that skirts a nasty morass of issues that really drove the fight to it's unfortunate outcome.
I'm not sure what your point ultimately is.
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My point is that there are other factors that made a huge difference in the outcome & duration of the fight that are NEVER so much as mentioned. Had McNeill had 14 rounds in his gun with another 13 readily available for a quick reload rather than only 6 with a slow reload, it is highly likely given his positioning that he could have neutralized Platt very early in the fight--not just Matix. Yet no one EVER makes that point.

In other words, the 9mm takes the fall for the outcome even though a slightly different (but still fully valid) analysis makes it clear that arming more agents with 9mm high-capacity pistols could have made a huge difference.

In other words, there were LOTS of things that could have changed the outcome positively. So many that a person desiring to focus on a single issue could pretty much have their pick. When that happens, unless an analyst is thorough enough to examine all the issues, then what gets blamed depends HEAVILY on where the analyst starts looking. Want to blame it on a bullet? Start looking at bullet performance in the fight. Want to blame it on a caliber? Start looking in that arena. Want to blame it on lack of proper equipment? Marksmanship? Tactics? Sure, you can make a case for any one of those--just start your quest in the proper area and ignore other issues.
Where are you coming up with that number? I am 6'5 and built pretty well, and I measured the distance from my shoulder (my widest point) to the center of my chest and I came up with about 10". Platt was smaller than me and very lean.
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The bullet didn't travel straight through his arm at the narrowest point, it traveled through the arm at an angle--penetrating perhaps 4-6 inches of arm before entering the torso. IN ADDITION, it is well accepted that penetrating skin on an exit is equivalent to an extra inch or two of penetration of normal flesh due to the elasticity & toughness of skin. AND you have to consider that the bullet entered the chest already expanded which would have made penetrating the clothing and skin more difficult than normal.

Here's a link to a picture at The Gunzone showing the path of the bullet. Click on the link for the drawing.

http://www.thegunzone.com/platt-shot.html
 
Massad Ayoob in his book,The Ayoob Files:The Book described the event in detail.

Massively heartbreaking to read.

There was also an outstanding made for tv movie about the event which I doubt was as accurate as what Ayoob found out and published.

One thing about the incident is for sure.

All the agents involved stepped in the way of fire to keep it from people on the street.

These FBI agents wanted these guys off the street and now.

We have the benefit of hindsight.

At the time of this action,it was not common for police including FBI to respond with rifles and at least some form of body armor on them.

Directly because of the loss of life in this and other incidents,thankfully as we have moved forward,now police including FBI have been well served by the idea that more is better and that better to be overprepared then dead.

The three things that stand out to me as a handgun owner is this-

1.Never place your handgun on the seat-use a holster.

If it gets dislodged from you,if you need it (to stop a carjacker,for instance) you are as good as dead.

2.If your eyesight is so bad that you need glasses to use your handgun,you need to use a strap on the back of your glasses at all times.

Does'nt need to be tied tightly to your head-just needs to prevent your glasses from getting away from you.

3.You can riddle a guy(or two bad guys)with bullets and they will keep going (like a deer with his heart shot out) long enough to kill you.

For me,on the street,this definitely changes where I might shoot an attacker,if they just won't stop advancing after an initial shot.

As others have said,alot of things went very bad for the FBI that day.

The two bad guys were essentially on a suicide mission -not if- but -WHEN- they got caught by the FBI -as they knew one day they would be.

Whatever fantasies the bad guys harbored about shooting it out with the police and running away to rob and kill another day-those FBI agents-all of them-made sure they were just that-fantasies.

I would caution people to understand that these guys went through hell and they did get the job done they volunteered to do.

And they DID hit the criminals NUMEROUS times.

Unfortunatley,a shotgun that could have been brought to bear very early in the incident was delayed going into action.

But that was because of the way the incident unfolded.

I cannot judge these guys,I don't know what I would have done with two crazy bastards right next to me trying to blow my brains out with a Mini-14 and a handgun.

But I do know this.

The cost was supremely high but those who gave their lives that day died so that innocent people on the street could go about living their lives in peace.

And their lives being lost has not been in vain-this incident has directly caused major changes in the way law enforcement is done all over America.
 
Forgive me for jumping back into my own thread, and getting it off track a little bit, but how much of a hollow point bullets energy is lost in deforming itself instead of in delivering a blow to the target? If you don't get my drift, think of a Subaru travelling at top speed hitting a stationary dump truck that's loaded with crushed rock. How much of that impact is absorbed by the dump truck and how much of it is absorbed by the Subaru? Now think about when a hollow point hits it's target.
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For that to be a factor, one would have to believe that a typical pistol cartridge possesses enough kinetic energy to actually damage a human being from the energy alone. I've never heard of any evidence that this is actually the case. As far as I know, wounding from a pistol bullet is solely from the permanent wound channel caused by physical contact between the bullet and the body tissue it actually transects. If you have evidence of actual wounding from the kinetic energy alone of a standard pistol bullet, I'd be very interested in seeing it.
 
It's "exactly wrong" to assume ballistics played no role in the shooting. That's kind of like saying air plays no role in a plane flying.
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Good for you for missing the point! The primary failure in this case wasn't that the 9mm 115 grain Silvertip didn't do it's job, which I don't think anyone in this thread has established one way or another, but that the agents involved didn't have a better plan, weren't better prepared or equipped, and didn't execute the stop more effectively.

They initiated the event, yet were woefully unready for what was to happen. THAT is the primary reason for the debacle, not that the 9mm 115 grain Silvertip wasn't a magic cartridge.
 
This event has been hashed over in the gun forums since the 'ole days of rec.guns.

I'm no expert, but I've read enough good material on this to see that many of the myths and misconceptions and conjectures about this incident have grown into legends and are bandied about as "truth" in these discussions.

To really learn as much as you can from open source material, forget about what you read in the forums and read the best of what's available without FBI insider access or LEO access to source material not available outside the LE community.

Start with Dean Speir over at www.thegunzone.com and his pages on the FBI Miami gunfight. It's a good overall look at the fight and the aftermath. He also includes some FBI documents.

http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html

Then find Ayoob's complete "Ayoob Files" article. While later accounts suggest it contains some mistakes, my understanding is it is generally factually solid.

Then read Anderson's "Forensic Analysis of the Miami Gunfight", which is the book Tennesee Gentleman mentioned earlier in this thread. This approaches the subject from a medical perspective and describes the wounds received by the participants and includes a chronology of the fight. Once again, not a perfect source material, but a very good one. I understand Paladin Press now has a hard copy available. I have an earlier verson that I downloaded.

After that, get the redacted and declassified version of the official FBI report on the gunfight right from the FBI home page. It's on their FOIA page, IIRC.

While Dean Speir called the FBI report a "whitewash" in a forum post once, it *is* the official FBI report on the shootout and anyone who wants to learn more about the subject or try to talk authoratively about it should at least read the official report.

When you read through all that, and apply some critical thinking (Speir's favorite phrase), you'll get a better understanding of what happened and what went wrong and why so many internet rumors of what happened are so off-base.

For instance, someone here asked why the FBI agents here had .38 Special loads in their .357 Magnum revolvers. That's because the .38 Special was the official FBI load back then, except for a few agents who could carry 9mm's.

With that in mind it's interesting to note, as I think Speir pointed out originally, the FBI report mentions that two loaded speedloaders with .357 Magnum ammunition were found on the scene. No attempt is made in the report to tie them with any specific bad guy or FBI agent. When you ask yourself, "Why?" one possibility is that they were carried by an FBI agent as an unauthorized reload and that the writers of the report decided not to press the issue in the official record. (I'm not saying this is an official fact, just pointing out one possibility.)

Read through all that material while looking at everything with a critical eye and you may actually gain some insight.

Or, you could just argue the same half understood points on the internet again and again. Your choice.
 
For that to be a factor, one would have to believe that a typical pistol cartridge possesses enough kinetic energy to actually damage a human being from the energy alone. I've never heard of any evidence that this is actually the case. As far as I know, wounding from a pistol bullet is solely from the permanent wound channel caused by physical contact between the bullet and the body tissue it actually transects. If you have evidence of actual wounding from the kinetic energy alone of a standard pistol bullet, I'd be very interested in seeing it.
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You're partially correct in that the energy alone of most handgun bullets cannot cause enough damage to reliably cause incapacitation. However, energy in conjuction with placement and penetration does play a role in handgun effectiveness. The main proponent of the "permanent cavity alone" theory is Dr. Martin Fackler. Dr. Fackler bases this opinion on the premise that human tissue is elastic enough not to be permanently damaged by temporary cavitation. What is largely ignored by Dr. Fackler is that the human body is not homogenous and that certain tissues are indeed fragile enough to be damaged by temporary cavitation while others are not. An example of this is the bruised area around the gunshot wound in a game animal. The bruise is caused not by the penetration of the bullet, but by the temporary cavity rupturing the tiny blood vessels around the wound. The reason that energy can't be solely relied upon to incapacitate is that it's effects are somewhat localized around the permanent crush cavity.
 
You're partially correct in that the energy alone of most handgun bullets cannot cause enough damage to reliably cause incapacitation. However, energy in conjuction with placement and penetration does play a role in handgun effectiveness. The main proponent of the "permanent cavity alone" theory is Dr. Martin Fackler. Dr. Fackler bases this opinion on the premise that human tissue is elastic enough not to be permanently damaged by temporary cavitation. What is largely ignored by Dr. Fackler is that the human body is not homogenous and that certain tissues are indeed fragile enough to be damaged by temporary cavitation while others are not. An example of this is the bruised area around the gunshot wound in a game animal. The bruise is caused not by the penetration of the bullet, but by the temporary cavity rupturing the tiny blood vessels around the wound. The reason that energy can't be solely relied upon to incapacitate is that it's effects are somewhat localized around the permanent crush cavity.
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I am, of course, familiar with and a proponent of Dr. Fackler's conclusions. I am unsure that you've helped your case any by mentioning bruising around the wound of a game animal shot with a rifle!

It's also hard for me to understand why you would cite bruising as evidence of the energy of a typical handgun bullet doing significant injury to a person. Are you really suggesting that damaging capillaries is going to contribute significantly to incapacitation? That, to my mind, is one hell of a stretch (pun intended).

At the end of the day, belief in the injury-creation capacity of the kinetic energy of a handgun bullet is a matter of faith. The injury-creation capacity of the permanent wound channel caused by the physical transection of body tissues, on the other hand, is an established fact. I'll stick to the facts.
 
They initiated the event, yet were woefully unready for what was to happen. THAT is the primary reason for the debacle, not that the 9mm 115 grain Silvertip wasn't a magic cartridge.
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And I guess reading comprehension isn't one of your strong points. If you read what I've written you'll find I'm not suggesting, nor has anyone in this thread, that the whole debacle can be blamed on a single bullet. What you seem to fail to accept is that there are MANY lessons to be learn from the incident, one of which is the lesson the FBI learned. Bullet penetration does play a factor in terminal ballistics.

As a matter of fact, the FBI has researched the topic quite extensively post Dade County and documented their findings.

http://www.seark.net/~jlove/handgun_wounding.htm
 
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And I guess reading comprehension isn't one of your strong points. If you read what I've written you'll find I'm not suggesting, nor has anyone in this thread, that the whole debacle can be blamed on a single bullet. What you seem to fail to accept is that there are MANY lessons to be learn from the incident, one of which is the lesson the FBI learned. Bullet penetration does play a factor in terminal ballistics.
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So....your idea is that reading comprehension means agreeing with you, eh? Hogwash. You, for some reason, are fixated on the very least significant factor in the Miami shootout - the terminal ballistics of handgun ammunition, while completely ignoring other, far more significant factors like the FBI agents' woeful preparation and tactics. You can continue to gaze in the terminal ballistics navel at your leisure, but the real tragedy in Miami isn't to be blamed on ammunition performance, it's to be blamed on human performance.

But please, continue talking to yourself and putting words in other peoples mouths. It's one of the best features of the internet.
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It's almost as entertaining as your obsession with Kimber, isn't it?
 
So....your idea is that reading comprehension means agreeing with you, eh?
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No, it means you don't need to put words in other peoples mouths to make yourself appear to be more enlightened than you are.

Hogwash. You, for some reason, are fixated on the very least significant factor in the Miami shootout - the terminal ballistics of handgun ammunition, while completely ignoring other, far more significant factors like the FBI agents' woeful preparation and tactics. You can continue to gaze in the terminal ballistics navel at your leisure, but the real tragedy in Miami isn't to be blamed on ammunition performance, it's to be blamed on human performance.
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Umm, wrong again. You seem to be fixed on the fact I mentioned the performance of the Silvertip. Just because you don't think it was significant doesn't mean the rest of the world, including the FBI who spent considerable time and money investigating the performance of Silvertip ammo, might think it played some role in the incident.

I have never said it was the most significant issue, as a matter of fact I've said the exact opposite... but you can't seem to be bothered with the facts.

It's almost as entertaining as your obsession with Kimber, isn't it?
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You mean your obsession with me.

So it would appear you've shown your hand. You want to go out of your way with strawman arguments because you have a chip on your shoulder about past comments I've made regarding Kimber. Why am I not surprised?
 
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