zombie-themed guns/ammo: fun or legal liability??

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Panfisher: Using the reasoning that a zombie themed firearm could get you into more legal trouble is akin to saying that if you had say a 1911 with a Marine Corps logo on it you are more liable. My goodness the Marine Corps trains people to kill, heaven forbid if you used a NRA marked weapon, not to mentioned the myriad of various themes, skulls, cobras etc. etc.

Dr. Glenn E. Meyer has published a study of scientific jury simulation experiments showing that the appearance of the firearm used can have an impact on jury findings.

Google on "can it hurt me in court."

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Going to give a talk to the Texas Bar CLE session on Friday about this kind of thing. Other well known gun folks will talk also like Mas Ayoob and Stephen Halbrook.

The legal profession seem to think that such things are important to know.

 

[ClydeFrog]

Judges, firearms....

In my state, by statue/SOP, judges can apply for & get concealed licenses with restricted address access.
In Florida, it's common for judges to have concealed firearms within reach, .
The judge in the Florida Anna Nicole Smith court case(child custody) told the local media he packed a gun in a ankle holster while on the bench for years.

If you get a chance, watch the Youtube clip of the court room scene from a early Miami Vice episode(black out scene). Im sure many Florida courts were like that in the 1980s.

As for firearms & court actions, some factors may be more prominent than others depending on the conditions. A ballistics or firearms tech could explain some of these points to a jury but they could not explain zombies or skulls or grim reapers.

Clyde

 

[Panfisher]

I have no doubt that the appearance of a firearm in a trial could to a small degree affect a jurys first impressions, but really have we fallen so far that placing a simple decoration on a firearm makes it more sinister, heaven help anyone who goes to trial after shooting someone with an AR-15, AK47 or a double barrel shotgun, what would be more menacing than looking at the end of a double barrel shotgun. All I am trying to point out is that it is such a infinitesimal thing I don't believe a jury faced with any sort of decent evidence would swing the other way over a zombie decoration. I could imagine some would laugh at the décor but don't believe it would change a verdict at all, but maybe the fact that I live out in the sticks and not in a metro area colors my outlook. Heck I even take my chances by loading my .45 and AR with reloads, why because that's what I have and normally shoot and don't worry one bit about it. And I would think that the decoration on a firearm that the bad guy cannot even see would be more of a theoretical issue that decorating the firearm with a bio-hazard symbol. Anything could be attempted to be spun into something bad by a lawyer, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury the defendant visits a shooting range a minimum of once a week, a week, it seems like he has been planning and practicing for the opportunity to shoot the poor defendant". I just don't see it as a legal problem in front of a jury, that's all.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I have no doubt that the appearance of a firearm in a trial could to a small degree affect a jurys first impressions, but really have we fallen so far that placing a simple decoration on a firearm makes it more sinister, heaven help anyone who goes to trial after shooting someone with an AR-15, AK47 or a double barrel shotgun, what would be more menacing than looking at the end of a double barrel shotgun...

This isn't anything new. People have always and will always be affected in various ways by the appearances of other people and/or things.

...All I am trying to point out is that it is such a infinitesimal thing I don't believe a jury faced with any sort of decent evidence would swing the other way over a zombie decoration...

And exactly how do you know that? Do you have any actual evidence, or are you just guessing? How many post verdict juror interviews have you participated in?

...I just don't see it as a legal problem in front of a jury, that's all.

And exactly what are you professional qualifications supporting that opinion?

From the collective experiences of a great many lawyers who have tried a great many cases in front of a great many jurors, and with whom they have spoken after a verdict, as well as from academic studies such as the one conducted by Dr. Meyer, we have good reason to appreciate the possible effects appearances can have.

 

[thedudeabides]

Guns are tools.

I have grown up around guns, my father didn't feel anything wrong with handing me a Sig 9mm semiautomatic when I was 12 for target shooting off of the back porch, or letting me go off into the woods turkey and deer hunting with a Remington 870.

I've carried since I was old enough to, and at any time there's at least one loaded gun within 2-3 paces of where I'm sitting. That's how things were when you grew up in the country where the police would come within 45 minutes IF there wasn't an accident on the nearby highway.

Guns are second nature to me, so I wouldn't think that someone with a zombie gun was a "weapons fetishist" or looking for trouble. I wouldn't question their state of mind... maybe their better judgment--but I wouldn't hold it against them. I know that zombie ammo isn't any different from the regular JHP you get at Wally World.

...I'm also probably the LAST person to be sitting on a jury in an SD case.

Your "peers" might be some skittish leftie teacher who cringes at the sound of gunfire, told her boyfriend she'd walk out on him if he didn't give away his gun, once called 911 on a guy who she thought was printing, and says she'd rather die than ever take a life to defend herself (I used to date a crazy chick like this, trust me).

Do you think she's going to react the same way to the "zombie slayer" handgun covered in skulls like a grizzled 30-something mountain man? Or do you think it'd play into her stereotypes of gun owners as bloodthirsty animals, and that anyone who'd wield such a weapon deserves whatever punishment is coming to him?

OK, I'm exaggerating... but just a bit. We all assume that others think rationally like we do. They don't. That's why our legal system is so messed up and arbitrary.

 

[ClydeFrog]

Wanna-be cop...

Based on a recent high profile court case(that I won't name due to the volatile nature), Id honestly say any military age male(18-55) who uses a firearm in a lethal force event will be labeled a "wanna-be" cop by a civil atty or prosecutor. It's not fair & a cheap shot but in 2013, unavoidable.

To have a semi-auto with blood stains or cartoon characters on it will make things worse.

 

[Theohazard]

Thedudeabides hit the nail on the head in post #86. OF COURSE people have prejudices that will skew the way they see you. Some prejudices will be positive, some negative. With zombie-themed guns, there will almost certainly be a skewing towards a negative prejudice. (Heck, just on here there is a skewing towards a negative prejudice, now imagine once we throw in a bunch of non-gun people!)

Of course juries are supposed to ignore their prejudices, but that's almost impossible for anyone to do completely. Why do you think defense attorneys have their clients clean up their look and wear nice clothes? Saying a jury wouldn't be influenced by a blood-and-guts zombie design on a gun is like saying a jury wouldn't be influenced by a defendant that looked like a full-on thug instead of being clean-cut and well-dressed.

Using the reasoning that a zombie themed firearm could get you into more legal trouble is akin to saying that if you had say a 1911 with a Marine Corps logo on it you are more liable. My goodness the Marine Corps trains people to kill

That's actually very a good point. On my pick-up truck I have a Marine Corps sticker on one side of my rear window, my old infantry unit sticker on the other, and a Marine Corps license plate. I also live in an urban area. All of those things combined almost certainly mean that the average person would assume I'm much more prone to violence than, say, a guy in a suit driving a Prius. And that's something I'm well aware of. But I'm also aware that I might be more likely to receive just a warning from a cop who pulled me over for speeding. I'm also probably less likely to get car-jacked.

Those are all possible positives and negatives that I've weighed from having my truck appear the way it does. A USMC 1911 would be similar to my truck; it would almost certainly sway some jurors in a positve direction and some in a negative direction. And with a zombie-themed gun most people have also weighed the positives and negatives, but in that case most people believe there would be far more negatives than positives.

 

[patrickmn]

What about the black powder guns with battle scenes engraved on the cylinders? Zombies aren't real, but some of these engravings were based on real battles. Imagine what would happen if someone had to use their Uberti Walker to stop somebody and the prosecutor put a magnified image of the cylinder on a projector.

Not all guns are tools of war. Some are built for other uses, such as competition, the fun of shooting, or display. I see nothing wrong with having guns that are used as "toys". This is a case of "Use the proper tool for the job." Fun time at the range and self defense are two very different jobs.

 

[Frasier]

While I'm a big fan of the zombie genre, I don't want any guns that have bio hazard symbols or zombie themes. I view guns as tools, not toys and with the recent anti gun political climate, would not want to explain to a jury why I used such a weapon to defend myself.
Now, I need to get back to writing the script for "Billy the Kid vs the zombies"

 

[ThesNazud]

Actually Frank I was saying they have an agenda, be it personal or professional. I'm sure there are some out there that do have personal agendas, but most will keep it professional.

 

[Skans]

You know what - guns are tools, and at least those used for SD should look like tools.

Let's say you had a choice of two dentists to replace a broken crown on one of your molars, but you know nothing more about them, which one would you pick - the one with zombie motif dental tools, who stores his composites in green boxes with the bio-hazard symbol on them? Or the dentist who has a professional looking dental chair, dental tools and supplies?

No, it's not exactly the same; but one set of tools is used for fixing broken teeth; and a gun carried for SD is used to inflict (sometimes deadly) violent wounds on an attacker. Both are SERIOUS business.

A person looking back 20 years from now on zombie themed guns will have clarity in understanding that "stupid" doesn't last very long.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Panfisher: I have no doubt that the appearance of a firearm in a trial could to a small degree affect a jurys first impressions, but really have we fallen so far that placing a simple decoration on a firearm makes it more sinister, heaven help anyone who goes to trial after shooting someone with an AR-15, AK47 or a double barrel shotgun, what would be more menacing than looking at the end of a double barrel shotgun.

Yes, someone who has employed an AR-15 or AK-47 to shoot someone has a disadvantage at the starting gate. Not so for the actor who has used sporting shotgun.

"To a small degree"? Hhmmm...

All I am trying to point out is that it is such a infinitesimal thing I don't believe a jury faced with any sort of decent evidence would swing the other way over a zombie decoration.

Have you seen any experiments that indicate that it would be an "infinitesimal thing" to the average citizen assessing your character?

I just don't see it as a legal problem in front of a jury, that's all.

Study this and reflect upon it, and then see what you think.

 

[ClydeFrog]

Post #92....

I agree with post #92.
There was a time when people were listening to & dancing around to Vanilla Ice & MC Hammer .
Times & tastes change. A criminal court judge & jury may not: "get the joke" or share your same political views, then feel in some subtle way feel slighted/insulted.

CF

 

[Panfisher]

I'm very up front about my qualifications I have NONE, nada, zip, zilch. All I have is my common sense based on my personal life and background which is also worthless. I have great respect for Dr. Meyer I just personally cannot wrap my mind around the concept of a good SD shooting going bad because someone has a zombie themed weapon, or any other decoration on it. I have never been arrested, tried, or involved in a shooting and fervently hope to keep that streak going my whole life. It just seems that we are worried about things that don't merit the worry (in my backwoods mind at least). The link was quite interesting and I will have to go back and read it some more to get all the "goodie" from it. I still have a faith in our judicial system that a jury will make the proper decision, even in the recent high profile case of a SD shooting, seems like every juror that gave an interview wanted to convict him, but simply couldn't on the basis of the legal requirements, they did well IMO, the defendant was dragged through the mud needlessly, the local LE agency had it pegged correctly from the beginning. And in reality since I don't have any firearms with decorations on them and am unlikely to since I see it sort of like decorating any other favorite tool I probably won't have any problems, however I do very much appreciate the links and opposing opinions as it does make me think about such things a little more, for that I thank you. Sometimes I get mired in my own thought processes and am unwilling to see other viewpoints.

 

[Spats McGee]

Nobody is saying that you should allow yourself to be killed if you're attacked by an axe-wielding zombie while holding a 10mm pistol with Punisher grips, a barrel that says "Hippies watch for flash" around the crown, and loaded with handloads. However, that doesn't mean that choosing that pistol as part of your EDC package is the wisest choice you could make. Juries are influenced by a lot of different factors, some of which may seem trivial. Ever notice the differences between a booking shot, and the way a defendant appears at trial? Appearances make a difference to juries.

When I see threads like this (legal liability based on the appearance of a firearm, or modifications to a firearm, or the ever-popular handloads vs. factory loads), I keep coming back to the same thought: Prepare for a legal fight the same way that you would prepare for a gunfight. Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst. Eliminate the variables where possible. Don't spot the opposition any points.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Panfisher: I'm very up front about my qualifications I have NONE, nada, zip, zilch. All I have is my common sense based on my personal life and background which is also worthless. I have great respect for Dr. Meyer I just personally cannot wrap my mind around the concept of a good SD shooting going bad because someone has a zombie themed weapon, or any other decoration on it.

Try to look at it from this point of view: If the totality of the evidence available after the fact supports lawful justification, neither decorations nor other aspects of the firearm will matter.

But--absent a complete sound video record taken from multiple vantage points, the evidence after the fact will be incomplete and piecemeal; earwitness and eyewitness testimony will likely be unreliable and may well be contradictory.

Under those circumstances, the triers of fact will have to piece together what is presented to them and decide whether the defendant had in fact had reason to believe that he or she had been faced with the immediate necessity to employ deadly force and had not been party to initiating the confrontation.

Much of that determination will be based on impressions about the character and state of mind of the defendant.

Does that help?

 

[rickyrick]

If you've read world war z, then you know traditional weapons were scrapped for low budget semi only 5.56 rifles and a sort of medieval axe sorta thingy

 

[Tom Servo]

a barrel that says "Hippies watch for flash" around the crown

Wait, they have those?

I kid, I kid.

Essentially, I own and carry a firearm to mitigate risk. Painting "get some" on the slide is a way, no matter how small, of adding risk back into that equation.

 

[Skans]

...traditional weapons were scrapped for low budget semi only 5.56 rifles

I know of no other rifle that is more traditional than the 5.56 semi-only AR's. Heck, just about every issue of American Rifleman features one of these on its cover now!