zombie-themed guns/ammo: fun or legal liability??

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Zombie squad....

I agree with the forum members about all the zombie hoo-hah.
I wouldn't buy into it or want a duty pistol with a bunch of "zombie killer" non-sense all over it.
I could just picture a veteran homicide investigator or deputy DA/asst state atty tearing into someone for those points. :rolleyes:
As for handgun custom work or add-ons, I think some have merit but that is for a trained or advanced-level shooter. A new or entry level gun owner doesn't need a $3000.00 race gun. Nor do they need some SWAT/DevGru SEAL carry package.
3 dot night-sights or maybe new after market grips are all any new license holder needs.
Id add that custom work or features can be defended in court/civil actions but if you put zombies or grim reapers or skulls, you may have to deal with the fall-out.

CF
PS; I watched much of the GZ case too & noticed the 9x19mm rounds were almost a non-issue. Judge Nelson even said the pistol ammunition not be given to the female jury members to review. The local media never brought up the topic either.
 
To me the real question is, will this crap be collectible and worth something in 50 years? I think yes and have a few hundred rounds for that reason.

This is exactly why I have a few boxes of it. I don't actually think a zombie apocalypse is going to happen, and I don't use it for self-defense. I shot a box of it at the range though, and it seems like it is pretty much the same as Critical Defense.

I wouldn't use it in SD just in case, but if it was all I had, I wouldn't be too worried about it being used against me in court.
 
The only thing I have Zombie are the Hornady rounds for my .45. Reason being is they were the only thing around when i needed some SD ammo as well as the fact that they are the Critical Defense with green tips.

Nothing special about the rounds and hard to find myself in hot water over the color of the tip. Even sillier things have happened and people have caught the devil for less. But where I live, there are few radical anti-gun hunting prosecutors with a like minded judge looking for an someone to make an example of.
 
This is exactly why I have a few boxes of it. I don't actually think a zombie apocalypse is going to happen, and I don't use it for self-defense.
Everyone knows FMJ's work better for hoards of zombies, anyway. You want the penetration, so you can quite literally kill 2 birds with 1 stone. :D
 
Really?? Green grips... that's not exactly extreme mods now is it?
In fact, just what kinda mods do you think they do?

When a gun is covered in skulls, bloodspatter cerakote, has "zombie slayer" or some other garbage on it... that's pretty extreme.

That's what Mas Ayoob and other gun experts are implying *might* get you into trouble because like others have said, guns, home defense, are not to be taken lightly... just imagine what it'd be like defending the use of lethal force with a garden variety police issue semi or an asinine green and blood cerakoted zombie gun with skull grips and "only a headshot counts!" on the slide. Go google some custom 'kote jobs on the internet and you'd see that many of these are pretty tasteless.

As I've already said, there's no proof that gun modifications have ever landed anyone in hot water, but why would you want to have a gun that would question your state of mind?
 
Yeah, and people need to keep in mind that even if it's not explicitly used against you, it could be used to subtlety influence a jury. Which do you think looks worse to a jury; a gun with "Zombie" scrawled across it in big green letters with "biohazard" symbols, skulls, and blood splatters all over it, or a gun without any of that?

Having all that stuff on a gun is childish and idiotic. It has no place in a serious endeavor such as firearms. And it also just makes all of us responsible gun owners look bad.
 
Assuming you're not making +P+ reloads or using Lehigh bullets, that's easily countered by a defense attorney providing ballistic evidence that your ammo is no more powerful or lethal than factory loads.
The problem is that short of an expert lab testing any remaining cartridges in the gun (assuming there are some left in the gun), there's no hard evidence to prove what was used other than evidence that is exclusively sourced from the person on trial. Clearly not an unbiased source of information given the obvious state of affairs in a trial.
At some point firearms training needs to be revisited and a lot of the myths need to be explained away and stamped out. A lot of what's out there is just opinion. Well meaning, intelligent, opinion, but just opinion nonetheless.
It's true that there's a lot of opinion out there, and it's true that some of it is not worth much. It's also true that some opinions are worth a lot more than others.

For example, a person who's made a life of studying the legal aspects of shooting incidents and deadly force self-defense trials, who has been certified as an expert witness and been involved in a number of trials, who is widely respected by members of both the firearm and legal community, very likely has an opinion that is worth FAR more than the average.

Furthermore, such a person will have gained that respect and reputation because when stating an opinion, he or she is careful to insure that the stated opinion is consistent with general legal principles and is based on real-world cases which are governed by similar or parallel principles.
 
just my 2 cents but
as long as its store purchased ammo, your liabilities are pretty limited
obviously if you shoot somebody you will have some explaining to do.

I have heard tells of juries being given ammo specs in personal injury cases, and the long and the short of what I got was, if you are shooting store load you are less liable than a reload you may have created "to maim" instead of as it should be. I get it, its a bullet, its supposed to kill, but let the big ammo companies fight this battle. I shoot reloads on the range and carry store bought box ammo when its conceal carry time.
 
Worse, it seems to me that some folks (yes, some on here) seem to use "zombie" as a euphemism for people of a different race, and that is not acceptable
Never had an inkling. Thought it was like the Punisher theme revolving around the zombie thing so big today. Like the vampires and the werewolves were (still are).

Just gos to show how someone is apt to abusing anything.

Needless to say using such a thing as a euphemism is just sad. We have enough politicians in Washington using connotative words in a vociferous manner in an attempt to crush the rights we all believe in and using the same slimy tactics to promote oneself as a bigot within a sub-culture is neither alluring or productive.

It also has no place here on these forums IMO.
 
Would this be a zombie gun? It's not plastic or new but has changed it's appearance. I'll post before and after pics. First a little background.I'm not a zombie fan but to each his own. A friend of mine who is a gunsmith got into putting personal touches on firearms and other items. It's a dipping process and I'm surprised things come out as good as they do. This is an old Star Model Super in 9mm largo. This gun is over 50 years old and in no way was collectable so I didn't ruin a 1911. Going to give it to my grandson.Best regards Dick
 

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blitzen25cat said:
Would this be a zombie gun? It's not plastic or new but has changed it's appearance.
It's not really a "zombie gun" per se, but I'd say those skulls are a little along the lines of this thread.

Here's the thing: In the tiny chance that you were involved in a self-defense shooting with that gun and it went to trial, would you want a huge picture of that gun shown to the jury?

Or this: Let's take someone who doesn't know much about guns or gun owners, is afraid of guns, doesn't know about guns, but might be educated to see us as normal people pursuing a hobby and a passion, then show them that gun with "scary looking" skulls all over it. Is that helping or hurting?

I think your gun there looks cool even though it really isn't my thing. But those scenarios I mentioned are just things to think about when getting a gun customized like that; I'm not saying don't do it, but just be aware of how other people might perceive it.
 
Next to shooting in self defense, facing a jury trial could be your worst nightmare. I wouldn't want anything that might make the jury (or even a single juror) question my intentions. I think Mas gave good advice, keep yourself as low profile as possible, a reasonable man.
 
I wouldn't want anything that might make the jury (or even a single juror) question my intentions.
You're right. If things are going that badly for me, even the slightest factor could sink my defense.

"The defendant had a zombie theme decoration on his gun, ladies and gentlemen. That, along with the punisher slideplate and the word 'trouble' engraved on the barrel hood, proves that he had an inclination towards fetishizing weapons. More to the point, it shows that he has a cavalier and dehumanizing attitude towards violence."

Can I remove every possible element of legal risk from my self-defense setup? No. Is it prudent to limit those elements as much as possible? Yes.
 
This is an interesting cultural phenomenon. I think it speaks to a lot of issues. Our culture has been increasingly mired in fantasy, barraged by media, and isolated from reality. That isolation isn't just a feature of the constant media barrage but also a product of very warped public education and immersion in a society of peers who have been similarly influenced.

Having been a kid through the entirety of the 1980s and having been a fan of the zombie craze in media throughout, I can understand the mentality. This overlaps with a pervading end-times mythology that has taken many forms in from the 1999 panic to the 2012 panic and the popular rise of Rapture eschatology in American Christendom. Zombies have now gone mainstream and have built a bridge between us and a whole generation of young people who have grown up in that deeper mire.

On one hand, it is ridiculous if believed literally. On the other hand, it means that a significant number of young people are escaping the anti-gun and anti-individualist propaganda crusade they obviously face. It means that more young people will be thinking about serious preparedness and survival, which in the case of zombies is surprisingly cross-applicable to other disaster scenarios. It means that a new generation of interest and market demand is secured. It means that a lot of these people will meet us and get more involved. It means that a lot of people will get into shooting and that interest will probably remain even if the fantasy elements die away with age and maturity. With that maturity can come a whole spectrum of contribution from technical innovation to political activism.

Maybe that's wishful thinking but I think the points stand. That, and I prefer the aesthetics of brass and a green ballistic tip to Hornady's usual nickel and red. :cool:
 
FWIW if you're worried about a jury, because of a 'modified' firearm. I believe as an American citizen, you have the right to waive your right to a jury of your peers. It is often advised that you DONT do this, but you are free to if you really believe you will be put away for having graphics on your gun. And the determination of guilt will be made by the Judge, after you present your case.
 
I'm not big into the Zombie thing, as I think most of it is more silliness than anything else. I never really coud get into the Walking Dead or shows like that.

That said, some of the custom zombie themed paint jobs on guns I have seen look ok- not great-but ok.

But I carry my CZ-75BD and all my spare mags loaded with the Zombie ammo. The green tip is the main reason: I use Hornady almost exclusively for all of my carry ammo, and with multiple guns in multiple calibers that get carried in varying situations and frequencies, I want to look be able to look at one of my SD rounds from a distance and know what it is and what it goes to. One more step to idiot proof my carry guns. My 9mm is the only gun I keep Zombie ammo for, and it's probably the only zombie ammo I will buy.
 
Not specific to guns, but I knew of a case where there was a hit and run; AFAIK, it really was an accident but a child was killed and a DA was up for re-election, so he decided to prosecute for manslaughter. The defendant would probably have gotten off but the DA showed the jurors blown-up pictures of the man's huge pickup truck. He didn't work for Orkin, but on the front was painted "EXTERMINATOR" and the back said "KILL THEM ALL, LET GOD SORT THEM OUT." He was convicted, and was darned lucky they didn't nail him for murder one. Not the kind of "joke" you would want to see if the dead child had been your daughter.

Jim
 
Assuming you're not making +P+ reloads or using Lehigh bullets, that's easily countered by a defense attorney providing ballistic evidence that your ammo is no more powerful or lethal than factory loads.

Easily countered? It is, and it isn't.
I cannot provide a cite or link (I'm not good at keeping those kinds of things), but I do recall hearing of a case (I think from Mas Ayoob's files) where handloaded ammo did play a big part. The specific details are out there (somewhere) basically, defense said wife shot herself. Prosecution said no, husband shot her from X feet away.

Their argument was based on the amount of powder burns. To further complicate matters the ammo came from a partial box of mixed reloads.

Now this situation is not the same as a self defense shooting, but some of the same principles apply.

Where there is doubt, your word on what, where, when, everything and anything can only be accepted if there is independent corroboration of some kind, and multiple reinforcements are best.

Your word and your records about what your handloads are, are all suspect. And it is also possible that testing of your ammo to determine it is what you say it is may not be allowed. That might be considered destroying evidence.

SO what does a crime lab do to have a standard against which to judge? With factory ammo, they can contact the factory, say we have ammo XXX (maybe even a lot# off a box) and the factory can give them all the specs they need. What powder, how much, etc. Generally courts will accept factory data pretty readily.

So the lab can get a pretty good idea what the powder burns ought to be a say one foot, vs 8 foot, for instance. Prosecutor is going to look at how your version of where the gun was when fired compared to what the lab says, if there is a significant difference, then you are going to have an uphill battle proving your innocence.

A self defense claim is a different matter yet, in court, because basically, you are admitting you did it (so burden of proof & reasonable doubt are different from a claim of innocent), and you are justified due to X, Y, & Z.

Making that claim in court gets you into what the law says specifically vs your actions. The idea of what a "reasonable and prudent" individual would do as a standard to judge your actions might enter into it.

Your defense has to be (at least in part) that you are that kind of individual, and so you did what they would do.

And the prosecutor is going to use anything he can find to show a jury that you are not that kind of person, so what you did was a violation of the law. Everything in your life at this point could be grist for that particular mill.

Zombiekiller on your gun, or ammo, while merely macabre humor to many of us could be seen in a very different light by someone in a jury box. How about other "responsible gun owners" calling it "childish and irresponsible", in print? Its difficult to convince some people how you could be so childish and irresponsible" in that aspect, and have been reasonable and prudent when you had to "defend" yourself. I think you get an idea where this could go?

yes, its your right to add any artistic embellishment you wish to your property. Even childish ones. But consider this, we spend a lot of time, energy, and money on our guns and ammo, seeking every tiny possible advantage in performance, should the worst happen.

If you are ever in a situation where a prosecutor is going to be shooting legal "bullets" at you, why would you let him use JHP when your choice of what to put on, or in your gun could restrict him to FMJ or better yet, blanks?

And, you know the worst part about the whole Zombie guns and ammo thing? They would be virtually useless against real zombies!:D

Real Zombies :rolleyes: are created by Voodoo magic. They can only be "killed" by a) destroying the Voodoo priest that raised them from the dead, b) salt (here, a shotgun with rocksalt would be effective), or c) somehow getting them to remember their name,(don't ask me how you would do that), in which case, they also remember that they are dead, and return to their graves, and cannot be raised again.

Zombie guns and ammo would only work against movie zombies (where brain shots kill them), and everybody knows those aren't real.;)
 
James K said:
...on the front was painted "EXTERMINATOR" and the back said "KILL THEM ALL, LET GOD SORT THEM OUT." He was convicted, and was darned lucky they didn't nail him for murder one. Not the kind of "joke" you would want to see if the dead child had been your daughter...
A good example of how we look to the world can affect the outcome for us if we're ever in court.

You are, of course, free to communicate how and what you wish, by your speech, by your actions, by your dress or by the ways in which you choose to embellish your personal weapons; but does not mean that doing so is without social consequences. Others are also free to form opinions about you, your intentions, character, values, or beliefs based on how and what you "communicate."

How you present yourself to the world is up to you. But you can't complain when people form impressions of you or make judgments about you based on the way you do present yourself to the world.
 
Easily countered - one really needs to read up on jury psychology before throwing this out.

The DA makes the case that you have some kind of lethal ammo. Your defense says NO, IT'S NO MORE LETHAL than this ammo advertised by the company to be efficacious in doing bad things.

Some members of the jury will just hear -lethal, lethal, lethal.
 
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