zombie-themed guns/ammo: fun or legal liability??

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Good point - but let's not do the specifics of Zimmerman.

The general point is that:

1. Shootings can be ambiguous and the 'good shoot' may not be your case.
2. It isn't a good shoot if you are in court.
3. Weapons related factors can influence juries as seen in simulations and real trials.

Frank has posted several cases where such came up. Thus, the show me the case argument is bogus also. It also misinterprets how these factors operate and would be noted in the legal searches.
 
Side issue but related...

It slides a bit off-topic, but I think it's worth bringing up the value of "intimidation" in carry weapons/sidearms.
I think it has merit but it's something that should used sparingly & only under limited conditions.
I was looking into the cool GOE "reverse black ops digital camo" Duracoat color for a M&P pistol. Could that be considered "intimidating" or "immature"?
Many veterans & hunters like camo or milspec type patterns. Would that create a bad image to any civil/criminal court jurors? I doubt it unless the gun owner or armed citizen used the camo weapons as part of a ensemble or persona.

Ayoob wrote a few years back how his duty revolver as a patrol officer had a polished muzzle to create the optical illusion of a .60 caliber. ;)
It's a interesting topic with +s & -s on both sides.

CF
 
I think it's incredibly irresponsible on the part of the manufacturers. This type of branding absolutely does create an increased interest for children (my son loooves zombies) and probably the mentally unstable as well. I think manufacturers and owners need to be more conscious of how their decisions will be perceived by a general public that by-and-large know little to nothing about firearms. Hey this is America, so if you want to sell it, fine, but recognize that it will probably bite you in the ass someday, and that it will hurt the image of responsible gun owners.

I have to wonder too if this opens the manufacturers to civil liability if these zombie-branded products are ever used in a shooting (legal and justified, or not). But I'm not a lawyer, so I have no idea.

That all said, I love zombie movies, but zombie themed ammo, jeez that is so idiotic.
 
do recall hearing of a case (I think from Mas Ayoob's files) where handloaded ammo did play a big part. The specific details are out there (somewhere) basically, defense said wife shot herself.
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That was the Daniel Bias case. Before we nitpick it to death and say, "well, that wouldn't happen to me," remember that we're talking about a homicide.

If I have to pull the trigger on another human being, I've lost control of the situation. I'm not going to have control over the subsequent investigation, either. It would be in my best interests that there's as little doubt as to the circumstances and frame of mind as possible.
 
Let's short-circuit the whole "handloads" discussion.

Pretty much everything that can be said on that issue has been said, and it can all be found here. There's no need to go through it all again.
 
People have been adorning their weapons since the first pointy sticks...
If I were to post a picture of a HI-POINT there would be a plethora of replies on just how ugly it is..
Appearance is important to gun owners, like it or not...
Zombie culture is not anywhere close to being new any-more, and will probably be around for a while.... ZombieMax ammo isn't even new been buying it for a while because its a buck cheaper and it functions the same as the red tip stuff....
is it wise? who knows... but I bet they sold tons of it to people that don't even own guns.
I myself wouldn't carry a gun that has death themes... It may not matter if someone wants to crucify a gun owner...
 
I am of the opinion that one should prepare for the potential legal fight the same way one prepares for the potential gunfight. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, and stack the deck where possible. If I have to defend myself in court, I'm not interested in spotting the other side any points. As Tom noted, if I have to pull the trigger, I've already lost control of that situation.

As for gun mods, in general, here's what I posted on GlockTalk some time ago about them:
Spats McGee said:
Caveat: I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. The comments that follow are not, and should not be construed as legal advice, but are merely commentary.

With that out of the way, at the Moment of Bang, at least two, and possibly more, legal processes are set in motion. First, there is the possible criminal case. Second, one or more possible civil actions. (One by the Bad Guy, his estate, and if you're unlucky enough to hit an innocent bystander, then possibly one the the Innocent Bystander or his or her estate.)

There are several issues to consider when pondering the advisability of gun modifications. The first is the legal impact of said modifications. For example, having a trigger pull lightened could lead to accusations that it was done recklessly, negligently, or to an unreasonably light level. This is not so much of a concern in the case of an SD shooting where the shooter will likely have to admit that he intentionally shot the BG, but does raise concerns in the negligence context. For example, imagine that SD Shooter draws his gun, and BG McBaddy stops in his tracks. Knowing that he might no longer have BG McB, SD decides to hold off on squeezing the trigger. Through a combination of adrenaline and a lightened trigger, SD accidentally/negligently discharges a round, wounding BG. The argument could then be made that the trigger job was done in a negligent manner, or perhaps that it was negligent of him to carry a firearm that he knew had been modified in such a way. The question to ask, IMHO, is: Does the modification carry a large enough benefit to warrant the additional risk?

The second issue to be considered is one of jury perception. In addition to ay legal arguments that could be made, everyone who carries a firearm should consider what a jury is likely to think about the firearm that is used in a shooting. Is there really any difference between a .223 round fired from an AR and a .223 round fired from a Mini-14 ranch rifle? No. Not to "gun folks." The SD shooter cannot count on the jury being made up of gun folks, though. To many non-gun folks, the gun fired makes a big difference. And you can bet that an anti-gun prosecutor will tell them that they can judge an SD shooter's mindset by the weapon that he carries. If it has a Death's Head carved into the grips, an anti-gun prosecutor will show pictures of it every chance he gets. Again, the question to ask is: Does the modification carry enough benefit to warrant the additional risk?

Sometimes, the answer is yes. Sometimes, it's no. If you decide that the answer is yes, you need to be sure that you can clearly articulate to your lawer exactly what benefits come with the modifications you choose. That way, your lawyer will know exactly what questions to ask if and when you (heaven forbid) ever have to take the stand to defend those modifications.
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Zombies will get old, and it will be something else stupid - maybe someone should do a Grand Theft Auto themed gun???

Themed guns would go away if ranges would simply ban them. Certainly if you can ban "double-taps", you can ban Grand Theft Auto themed guns, and other stupidly adorned guns.
 
That all said, I love zombie movies, but zombie themed ammo, jeez that is so idiotic.
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Wow, this is just one of a half dozen or more similar comments and I gota say you guys need to get a grip.

So here I am, I am at the store getting some stuff on the way to the range where I am going to meet my buddies and put some holes in some paper. Now I spot this box of "Zombie Killer" Ammo so I buy some on a whim thinking my friends will get a laugh out of it today at the range. Come on guys, like everything else there is a time and a place and that includes a time and a place where some funky ammo might be funny and somehow not be idiotic, silly, stupid, or any of the other adjectives some of you have decided to apply here.
 
Boba Fett Glock....

I did see online, I kid you not; a Boba Fett Glock pistol. ;)
A custom shop used Duracoat to make a Glock look like Boba Fett's green/yellow/red body armor.
Now, if that Glock was used in a lethal force event, how would a judge/jury or the local media view it?

Clyde
 
I did see online, I kid you not; a Boba Fett Glock pistol.
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Who on Earth is Boba Fett?

I think the zombie infatuation is the silliest thing I've ever seen. I have a friend who is nuts about zombie themed guns and accessories. I wouldn't give 15¢ for every zombie themed gun ever made, and I sure as heck wouldn't want to explain to a jury why I was using a gun adorned with such foolishness in a deadly force incident.
 
Who on Earth is Boba Fett?
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The Mandalorian bounty hunter who was hired by Jabba the Hutt to capture Han Solo. Don't they teach anything in history class any more? ;)

Themed guns would go away if ranges would simply ban them. Certainly if you can ban "double-taps", you can ban Grand Theft Auto themed guns, and other stupidly adorned guns.
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I don't see how that would help anything. It's one thing to have something goofy as a curiosity or a range toy. However, a problem might arise if it's used in self-defense.
 
Its like anything else. Dont like, dont buy it, and it will go away eventually.

Its probably no worse for your defense then enjoying horror films, Clint Eastwood movies, or having your own copy of Taxi Driver on VHS.
 
By Tom: "Don't they teach anything in history class any more?"
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The education process these days :p


And Tom hits the nail on the head. Not every gun is for SD or hunting. I have some guns that may never be shot, (by me), again. I have one that at the rate I have been going may never be fired at all but I am hoping to avoid that.

While guns are first and for-most tools that should always be respected for what they are capable of, we can enjoy them, and more importantly enjoy the shared experiences with family and friends while we share the shooting sports.

At the same time I don't think these guys are wrong in that a defensive firearms that is embellished with symbols or wording might not be in one's best interest in the courtroom. Besides, the bad guy isn't likely to see it anyway, it's not going to strike fear in the hearts of evil doers.
 
I think it can be a fun concept, but it is rather unattractive on firearms and it might even make it hard for some to take one seriously if its been decorated like a toy. Not sure its the right thing.
 
To bring up the counterpoint:

My mom bought the exact gun shown in the OP. She and I ran a zombie based merchandise company for a while (https://www.facebook.com/UndeadSocial) and we've all been into the zombie thing for a while.

She tried out about 30 handguns and found the 238 the easiest to use with her joints, which are weakened because of Lupus. They had the regular and the zombie edition. She got the zombie one because we're into zombies and the lore and it was something that really fit her personality. It's just what she does, and if she's going to be looking at it for 3 hours every other weekend at the range, why not spend a couple dollars more on something that makes you happy? She's proud to shoot it and it starts fun conversations at the range some times. I don't see it as any different from her pink MP 15-22.

About the legal hot water for using it in a self defense scenario, it is true that it could be used against you. Anything you use can be used against you.

We're not a bunch of kooks building a zombie bunker in our basement or planning for World War Z scenarios. It's just a thing she enjoys.
 
Since we are on zombie themes what about targets? All the LGR and LGS sell them. Can't go to the range without seeing someone get one, or one left hanging from previous shooter.

Do the Zombie targets change anything. Personally I have never seen a zombie gun with the exception of the web. The people I see shooting the Zombie targets use every day guns.

To me it doesn't say anything bad about the person shooting them necessarily. How a jury may see it might be different. My guess is character witnesses might come into play in the court room should someone be involved in a shooting with a Zombie themed gun, bullets, or both.
 
My opinion is... as in anything related to the defense of myself and my family. If I have the tool available I would use it, period. Whether it be the dreaded .22lr, a bat, my range fun zombie gun, FMJ ammunition, a beer bottle, sand, chopsticks....

This thread like many others makes me sick. I hate how many in our community act just like those on the anti side of things. "I don't like it therefore its wrong, stupid, childish, immoral, and know one should own/have/use one etc..."

Apparently prejudice knows no bounds.

Edit: I may be alone in my position, but I have always welcomed everyone's views when it comes to guns. This is how I started my learning process. I guess I discovered early on, from visiting certain gun shops, that folks in the gun community are at odds with each other on far too many levels.

Oh and I guess my vote is fun. ;)
 
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