Zogby: Bob Barr is Polling at 6%
- Thread starter hayek
- Start date
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Actually, although McCain unquestionably has some liberal tendencies, and has been trying to engage more liberal and moderate support, voting for McCain is more consistent with conservative principles than voting for a third party and thus helping a raging liberal become President.hayek said:
The practical effect of Obama as President will be that conservative interests will be entirely frozen out of the executive branch. Obama will not be susceptible to conservative influence. Not only will conservative interests not have a voice or a place at the table, they won't even be permitted in the door. How is encouraging that result "standing by conservative principles." You are, in effect, selling conservative interests down the river.
McCain will be susceptible to conservative influence. Conservative interests would have a place at his table, and conservatives would have a voice in his administration. It would be thus because he would know, if he's elected, that he must thank and reward conservatives that helped make that possible.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
And McCain will talk with, listen to and pay attention to conservatives. Obama will not.sasquatch said:
applesanity
New member
hayek said:
Funny, you didn't actually give a response. You just made fun of McCain. That's because you're in denial. Again - if RP starts up a 3rd party campaign, then $100 dollars says you'll be supporting RP at the expense of Bob Barr.
One more thing. Why are you calling yourself a "conservative," who's voting for a supposedly "conservative" candidate running on the Libertarian ticket? Aren't Libertarians supposed to be.... libertarians?
"Bob Barr: the consolation prize for Ron Paul's followers."
Hmm. fiddletown, can you name one major issue on which McCain has listened to his conservative base? Was it gun control in regard to gun shows, or was it his mis-guided support of gun control to prevent the private sale of firearms between citizens? Has McCain listened to conservatives on his flawed approach and belief in global warming and carbon credits (taxation) on American businesses? Did McCain listen to conservatives when he rammed McCain-Feingold anti-free-speech bill through the congress? Did McCain listen to conservatives when he supported amnesty for 12 million illegal aliens in this country?
I'm interested... when exactly has McCain listened to and fought for a major conservative principal? It seems to me that he fights "against" conservative ideals, not for them.
Unregistered
Moderator
He has consistently voted against Assault Weapons Bans. Certainly you agree that is a conservative issue.
He has voted against major pork spending projects, such as the Farm Bill. Certainly you agree that fiscal conservatism is a conservative issue.
Considering your statement, I assume you have no idea of which you speak since you infer that a Conservative cannot be a Libertarian. In fact, Libertarians and Conservatives are like "close cousins" in a sense. You may find the wiki article about the subject helpful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-libertarianism
If he is conservative, then how do you explain his support for
* Global Warming theory with taxation of American businesses to control global warming.
* His wish to end private citizen to citizen gun sales except for close family members
* His support of McCain-Feingold bill which limits free speech
* His "strong" support of amnesty and citizenship for 12 million illegal aliens which he has promised to continue to fight for next year.
Unregistered
Moderator
Hayek, I think the problem is you are simply not giving him any credit for anything conservative. You asked for examples of times when McCain had "listened to and fought for a major conservative principal?" I gave you two. There are many other times as well.
There are a few times when he has not been conservative. The gunshow loophole, amnesty for illegals, and McCain-Feingold are examples of this.
Overall, McCain is more conservative than he is liberal, though he is not a perfect conservative. When compared to Obama, though, he is much better on all subjects. Bob Barr will end up with less votes nationally than Ron Paul did in the Republican primary. If you want to vote for Barr or another 3rd Party candidate, thats up to you. Vote your conscience and feel good about it. I voted for Ron Paul in the primary. I knew he would lose, but I voted my conscience. I believe the primary is the correct time to vote your consciense. However, I will not be one of those Republicans who chastise you for doing so in the general election. In fact, if more people voted their conscience we would be a better nation. However, you need to realize that most people are not going to vote their conscience. Most are going to hold their nose and vote for McCain, and accept his problems in hopes that he can defeat Obama. That is what I intend to do. An Obama presidency would be much worse than a McCain presidency.
One thing we should all remember is that our nation runs better when control is split between the Democrats and Republicans. Much of the damage done by the Bush Administration would have been prevented if the Democrats had had control of either the House or Senate. The same will be true under Obama. We don't want Democrats (or Republicans) to simultaneously control the House, Senate, and Presidency. That is enough reason right there to vote for McCain.
There are a few times when he has not been conservative. The gunshow loophole, amnesty for illegals, and McCain-Feingold are examples of this.
Overall, McCain is more conservative than he is liberal, though he is not a perfect conservative. When compared to Obama, though, he is much better on all subjects. Bob Barr will end up with less votes nationally than Ron Paul did in the Republican primary. If you want to vote for Barr or another 3rd Party candidate, thats up to you. Vote your conscience and feel good about it. I voted for Ron Paul in the primary. I knew he would lose, but I voted my conscience. I believe the primary is the correct time to vote your consciense. However, I will not be one of those Republicans who chastise you for doing so in the general election. In fact, if more people voted their conscience we would be a better nation. However, you need to realize that most people are not going to vote their conscience. Most are going to hold their nose and vote for McCain, and accept his problems in hopes that he can defeat Obama. That is what I intend to do. An Obama presidency would be much worse than a McCain presidency.
One thing we should all remember is that our nation runs better when control is split between the Democrats and Republicans. Much of the damage done by the Bush Administration would have been prevented if the Democrats had had control of either the House or Senate. The same will be true under Obama. We don't want Democrats (or Republicans) to simultaneously control the House, Senate, and Presidency. That is enough reason right there to vote for McCain.
applesanity
New member
Let it be known: hayek thinks there's a difference between "conservative libertarianism" and "libertarian conservatism" How many "isms" are in that wiki article? Some advice: when citing wikipedia articles, be sure to cite the ones that haven't been nominated for deletion due to such things like numerous neologisms or lack of citations or verification.
Thanks for playing. Wanna take that $100 bet now?
Fremmer said:
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Hayek, as to your question to me, I think that Unregisted and Applesanity have covered it well. I might also point out that McCain wholeheartedly endorsed Scalia's opinion in Heller and has addressed the NRA. In addition, he backed off amnesty when his constituents raised a ruckus, as reported on this Board (see post #11 in http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/....php?t=293504& ).
So he doesn't track the conservative agenda 100%. He's still a lot closer than Obama. And conservatives will be able to work with McCain much better than with Obama. In politics, it's not just about one man. It's about alliances and coalitions. With McCain, conservatives will be coming to the party. With Obama, conservatives will be sitting in the snow by the back stairs.
Remember, "He who insists on all or nothing, usually winds up with nothing."
So he doesn't track the conservative agenda 100%. He's still a lot closer than Obama. And conservatives will be able to work with McCain much better than with Obama. In politics, it's not just about one man. It's about alliances and coalitions. With McCain, conservatives will be coming to the party. With Obama, conservatives will be sitting in the snow by the back stairs.
Remember, "He who insists on all or nothing, usually winds up with nothing."
Unregistered
Moderator
Because the American spirit does not allow for us to willingly accept "second best". It is natural to strive for the best, whatever someone may believe that is. Liberals want the most liberal. Conservatives want the most conservative. Libertarians want the most libertarian. Only non-thinkers want a middle of the road candidate that stands for nothing, flip flops, and governs through poll taking and measuring the direction of the wind.
We have an underdog mentality. If our forefathers could defeat the largest, best military in the world, then certainly we ought not to have to accept a mediocre politician. If they could do that, then certainly our perfect candidate might win, even if he is polling less than 10%. We are sometimes almost magical in our thinking.
If self-proclaimed conservatives would vote their values rather than voting for one of the two liberals in this race, then we could have a conservative in the whitehouse. As it is, many people have bought the GOP party line hook line and sinker. They've told us over and over again that McCain is the best they can do. If that is the truth, then the GOP is dead on arrival at the ballot box in November.
And, as for voting based on principles, noone who considers themself a conservative and who will vote for McCain can say a darned thing about principles... because they don't have any if they vote for this tax-raising, anti-2nd amendment, anti-free-speech, pro-global warming, pro amnesty for illegals, liberal named John McCain.
Rush Limbaugh has said it best. In presidential elections, conservatism wins every time it has been tried. The question is, why is the GOP abandoning conservatism and will you follow it to the left. If you vote for McCain, then obviously, you will.
Unregistered
Moderator
I can agree with you that the Republican Pary is DOA in November, though I still would disagree that McCain is a liberal. He is a conservative, but with a few liberal failings.
Its enough to cost him the election though.
The main reason the Republicans will lose though, is because they won't be able to carry the South. Obama is black, and so are 40% of southern voters.
Once again Rush has proved himself a fool. Barry Goldwater was a conservative, and lost in a landslide.
Its enough to cost him the election though.
The main reason the Republicans will lose though, is because they won't be able to carry the South. Obama is black, and so are 40% of southern voters.
Once again Rush has proved himself a fool. Barry Goldwater was a conservative, and lost in a landslide.
Sadly, I agree with that. 90% of black voters in the south voted for Obama. Without strong support among southern conservatives, like myself, John McCain will not carry every southern state and without that, he will lose this election. That is why I don't understand McCain's campaign strategy to court liberals instead of courting conservatives. He cannot win without the conservatives yet he shoots himself in the foot on issue after issue after issue. It is possible I could have convinced myself to hold my nose and vote for McCain in November if he would have campaigned solidly on a conservative agenda. The fact is, he has not. He has attempted to court both liberals and conservatives at the same time. Of course, that will never work because conservatives can smell a phony from a mile away. Who ever gave him that stupid advice should be sent out to pasture.
McCain lost me for certain when he gave a speech in Oregon in May where he proclaimed that man initiated Global Warming is real and that he supports taxation of American businesses (carbon credits) to fight it. In other words, McCain is a globalist, rather than a nationalist. In other words, he gives creedance to the United Nations over the rights of we Americans. If a man is that lost in his own delusion, then there is no way he will get my vote.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Nope, there aren't enough. We need the middle, and there was no conservative candidate who could capture it. I wonder if any conservative candidate could at this point.hayek said:
Preposteruous. Now you're merely displaying your ignorance, immaturity and ill grace. We don't buy your nonsense, so you call us names.hayek said: