Zero Tolerance Strikes Again - 6 y.o. Victim Suspended

Zero tolerance people like this just infuriate me. Luckily, where I live zero tolerance also means they get charged for the crime. Luckily you ask? Lucky because we have some level headed judges that have shown the ability to use common sense and throw some of these cases out.

Butch: to add to what you observed, think about this,,,,,,,,,,

People tend to assimilate into the group they spend the most time with. I've seen kindergarten teachers that I thought were morons! Lol.

One of my sisters and her husband are both teachers (highschool), and neither one of them is real bright. :D
 
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Wasnt a kid in kindergarten suspended for "shooting" imaginary aliens with his fingers? Hell, we all played cops & robbers or cowboys & indians/etc when we were kids and most of us grew up as productive members of society. Not to mention a lot of psycopaths and serial killers were "model children" when they were little....
 
Why, because I'm sure (100%) that you've broken some law today, as well as yesterday, and the day before, so with your logic, you really need to turn yourself in, mistake or not. Zero Tolerance you know.
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I can actually relate to this because I was suspended from school when I was in 8th grade because I had a nail clipper in my backpack that also had a little 1 inch knife on it.
 
You only say what you say because it doesn't affect you. If you or one of your family members had a butter knife planted on them as a prank or by an ignorant 4 year-old child, I guess you would feel that you or your family member deserved to get suspended or expelled, right?
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Read my previous post.

Allowing kids to bring knives and guns to school and then say it was a "mistake" to get out of any trouble is plain idiotic. If it was a mistake then oh well, we all learn from our mistakes, so let them as well.

What do you guys really want? For the school to allow knives as long as they aren't hunting knives, and guns as long as they are under a certain caliber? Good lord, what is this world coming to?
 
I think ol' josh might be trolling.
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I'm not trolling. I found this site shortly after buying my first handgun and have been reading the semi-automatic forum. But after finding and reading the Legal and Political forum I just had to register! :D

Unfortunately, some people here like to call me crazy or someone who has no common sense because I believe we shouldn't allow butter knives in our schools. :confused:
 
Josh,

You ever heard of a concept called 'mens rea?'

lpl/nc (IANAL)
=============

mens rea

-in Anglo-American law, criminal intent or evil mind. In general, the definition of a criminal offense involves not only an act or omission and its consequences but also the accompanying mental state of the actor. All criminal systems require an element of criminal intent for most crimes. (snip)
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9052042?tocId=9052042
 
Lee jumped on the point I was going to make.

Apparently it is the tool that is to be feared, not the mind (or intention) of the one holding it.

If a kid has a legitimate reason to have a butter knife in school and doesn't misuse the knife, then he shouldn't be banned from having it in school.

Care to address the sharpened pencil issue, josh? How about the rocks on the playground? Umbrellas are dangerous too, josh. You could put an eye out... :rolleyes:
 
You ever heard of a concept called 'mens rea?'
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Yes I am aware. I know that to be commited of a crime you must (1) have commited the act and (2) have intent.

But from my understand the schools aren't accusing these kids of murder, they are expelling them for bringing the knives to school. So what exactly was your point again? :confused:

It is well known that knives aren't allowed at school. If you take your kid camping and you put knives in his backpack, then you sure as hell should double and triple check his backpack before you put his books back in and send him off to school!!!! Let's lay some of the blame on the parents who send their kids to school with butter knifes in their backpacks.
 
Care to address the sharpened pencil issue, josh? How about the rocks on the playground? Umbrellas are dangerous too, josh. You could put an eye out...
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Wow, you are really stretching it aren't you?

Pencils, rocks and umbrellas aren't widely known to be used as dangerous weapons. Knifes are.
 
thatguyjosh ~

Trivial Pursuit question. (You may use the internet for research.)

What's the second-most common implement used in stabbing deaths in America?

pax
 
thatguyjosh said:
Let's lay some of the blame on the parents who send their kids to school with butter knifes in their backpacks.
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I actually agree with you there. But according to the zero-tolerance rules, the kid will take all the blame and have to serve a suspension. What is the school going to do to the parents? Nothing!

thatguyjosh said:
Wow, you are really stretching it aren't you?

Pencils, rocks and umbrellas aren't widely known to be used as dangerous weapons. Knifes are.
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Not stretching it at all. Pencils, umbrellas, butter knives, nail clippers, tweezers and even recorders have a primary use that is not violent. Only their misuse should be punished.
 
Not stretching it at all. Pencils, umbrellas, butter knives, nail clippers, tweezers and even recorders have a primary use that is not violent. Only their misuse should be punished.
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So we should allow kids to carry knifes in school UNTIL they do something dangerous with them??? And THEN suspend them?
 
josh ~

Do your own research. ;)

While you're researching my earlier question, here's something else you could look up:

So we should allow kids to carry knifes in school UNTIL they do something dangerous with them??? And THEN suspend them?
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I don't expect you to believe this, but that is the way it used to be. And schools were safer then.

You could look it up.

pax
 
Zero tolerence doesnt just involve guns, knives, and drugs.

im 18 and graduated last year, I've was suspended twice for 10 days a piece in highschool.

reasons?

sitting in class and a kid i've never talked to asked me for my homework, i ignored him and he goes "man i'll slap you in your face if you dont gimmie your homework" at that i replied "that wouldnt be a good idea" the kid gets up walks across the room and smacks me...now im sure in real life i'd defintely be in a situation to use self defense after being physically assaulted...in a school? bah.

i hit the kid broke his nose.

i get suspended no questions asked, while i waited for my parents to pick me up i asked my AP what i should of done...his reply "the same thing, i know if i was in that position i would of...we ask you kids to do whats not natural...i would of done the same thing in your position"

"then why do i get suspended for 10 days?"

"zero tolerence"

happened in 8th grade as well...accept a kid came up and busted my necklece and cross off my neck...

ETA: a very good friend of mine and an avid fishermen (we do live in florida...any 5 minutes from the tampa bay) well we went fishing one weekend and he left his tackle box in the bed of the truck...as any fishermen carries a filet knife...

this kid was a straight A student, never suspended, never started anything or in any trouble just a "good kid"...

the SRO was "sweeping" the parking lot and noticed the open tackle box and the filet knife.

they didnt ask him to come down to the office...they actually called the local PD and had 2 officers "escort" him out of class, he was arrested, and expelled from school....simple mistake...we are human.

Chad
 
I must be getting too old.

Somewhere between the time I went to school and my kids went to school, things have turned Topsy-turvy.

I used to bring my 22 single shot to school. Stored it in my locker for target practice after school (took a city bus back and forth - Long Beach, CA.). In high school Jr ROTC, we used M1 Garands. Both my boys made knives and swords in metal shop (late '80's). Guns on racks in pickups in the high school parking lot... Hunting before & after school, ya know? The only violence was with fists. No one ever thought of using knives or guns to settle arguments.

Still don't. But now, all of this stuff is banned. It's as if the tools became suddenly animated and go around leaping into the hands of unsuspecting kids. The tools then send out a psychic wave that turns the little buggers into mass murderers!

Is that what happened?... excuse me while I adjust my tinfoil hat a bit...

Josh, I actually see that in some schools, those that have a lot of gang related violence, perhaps these rules actually do some good. Perhaps. Yet the kids intent on violence are not going to follow the rules. Kinda like any other crook. But one-size-fits-all solutions cause more problems than they purport to solve. Not every school in America needs such an environment.

And just to be fair, I went for one semester (9th grade) to Long Beach Polytechnic High School, in '65 I think. It was a school that had a heavy gang influence (see Watts Riots). Had metal detectors at the entrance. Ten foot chainlink fence, topped with barbed wire. Armed guards patrolling the school, inside and out. The bell rung and no one came in or out of the school until the end of the day. So I am familiar with that environment.
 
thatguyjosh,

I think what your argument is turning on here is the idea that there is no rational way to draw a line between a kid carrying in a dangerous way and a kid carrying in a nonthreatening way.

I have to disagree. Several posters have given clear cut examples of a student in possession of an instrument that, while banned by "zero tolerance" rules, was clearly not dangerous. A fillet knife in a fishing tackle box is not any more dangerous than a geometry compass. A butter knife is not any more dangerous than a pencil.

IMO, if the "weapon" does not add any significant danger on top of the dangers that already exist at the school, it makes no sense to expel or punish a child for possessing it. That's a pretty good line that, even if you insist on a clear rule, can be administered without any danger of a slippery slope, don't you think?
 
thatguyjosh said:
If you bring a knife or gun to school you should be suspended, easy as that.
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First I was gonna say that I can see that line of argument for guns but not for knives, but then I remembered that for DECADES in the 20th century, kids were allowed to bring firearms to school because they had shooting teams, or just that they wanted to shoot squirrels on the walk home from school later that day. And no one was shooting up schoolmates.

What has changed?

I dare say it's the behavior of the HUMANS, not the presence of the guns.

So I disagree flatly with you, Josh. Your approach to this is profoundly thoughtless, i.e. you are allowing one inflexible rule to substitute for actual thought and judgment. That's a disaster.

A knife is a useful tool. A Swiss Army Knife is a perfect example. Apart from having a blade, it has things like scissors, a tweezer, a toothpick, a small saw, sometimes a pliers... Do we really want to raise a generation of kids who go about day-to-day life lacking basic human tools? How many times I have come to work and been asked for simple things that no human being has an excuse to not have for themselves -- like a knife, or a flashlight, or a lighter, or a pliers.

People at work, who have no excuse for failing to equip themselves with a simple small pocket knife, come to me, "Can I borrow your knife?" I don't see that there is much difference between their abrogation of their responsibility to get themselves a knife to keep, and if they were to ask me, "Could you escort me to my car in the dark parking lot? I don't have a gun, but I know that you do."

People need to exercise a certain amount of self-reliance. Part of that is being equipped with tools, and even a sixth-grader can have a need for a knife now and then. This criminalization of having ANYTHING that could EVER be considered a "weapon," even a common folding pocket knife, is LUDICROUS. And people supporting this notion are harmful to the health of society.

If everyone in my office adhered to the idiotic "no one should have a knife -- why would you have a knife" philosophy, including me, then whenever someone had the occasional need for one, we'd all just be looking around at each stupidly.

-blackmind
 
GOD, I wish that saying what I really think right now wouldn't get me banned from this board... :rolleyes:


P.S. I have a feeling it's what a LOT of people here are thinking...

-blackmind
 
Crosshair said:
Seriously, I want to know who first came up with this stupid idea and slap them.
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If, by "this stupid idea," you mean "zero tolerance policies," then I want a few minutes with them after you're done with your slapping. :mad:



-blackmind
 
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