Would you trust your life to #4 buck shot?
- Thread starter Super-Dave
- Start date
- Status
I measured the distances inside my house, which is designed with doorways staggered (not facing each other, for privacy.) Longest possible shot (near impossible scenario, shooting through an internal doorway) would be 31' (10 yards). Most likely scenario is >5 yards (10-15'). I really think with the small pattern involved that #4 buck or Low Recoil 00 are going to be equally devastating.
Last edited:
Death from Afar
New member
There arguably is an advantage in bird shot, it has to be said, if you are to stand trial for shooting someone. IF you can say " i grabbed my duck hunting ammo" it may sound better to someone who knows nothing about firearms compared to " I grabbed my teflon coated heatseeking kills everything cartridges of death".
Bill DeShivs
New member
If you live in a reasonable state, it won't matter what you shoot them with-legally or civilly.
No. 4 buckshot
I know this is a way old thread but I found it interesting. When considering what to use for home defence we have to balance the rounds effectiveness with the possiblity of over penetration ( ie walls) we are responsible to were every pellet lands. with this in mind I think that number 4 buckshot is a nice balance between terminal performnce and the risk of going through a wall.
I know this is a way old thread but I found it interesting. When considering what to use for home defence we have to balance the rounds effectiveness with the possiblity of over penetration ( ie walls) we are responsible to were every pellet lands. with this in mind I think that number 4 buckshot is a nice balance between terminal performnce and the risk of going through a wall.
After scanning through the thread, I just realized how old it was, but it's still a good one!
I keep my shotgun loaded with #4 3" Magnum steel shot. Not that there's any tactical advantage, it's just what I shoot geese with, so I have plenty of it!
And also, for more information on the subject, check out the Box-O-Truth. That guy does some awesome, real-world research!
http://theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm
I keep my shotgun loaded with #4 3" Magnum steel shot. Not that there's any tactical advantage, it's just what I shoot geese with, so I have plenty of it!
And also, for more information on the subject, check out the Box-O-Truth. That guy does some awesome, real-world research!
http://theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm
Yes, I would. I have 00 buck in my Mossberg 500, but I would not feel uncomfortable with #4 buck either. You mentioned 15-20 yards distance in your post, but inside your house you are not going to ever be that far away from the person you are defending your life against.
If they are outside at a greater distance...my opinion is that you should not be shooting at them at all, but rather you should be inside on the phone with the police.
If they are outside at a greater distance...my opinion is that you should not be shooting at them at all, but rather you should be inside on the phone with the police.
waterfowler
New member
Id trust it to fight pirates on the ocean and in the home.
bamaranger
New member
At the start....
of my career, there was a trend to go to #4B as a LE load, and I have some articles somewhere that discuss/suggest its use by the military. The emphasis seemed to be on higher hit probability.
Its performance past very short distances was considered disappointing, penetration wise, and against common light cover and heavy clothing, and LE seems to have gone back to 00B as a rule. My agency did. Note this is for general police use, where longer range confrontations MAY occur, or suspects could be using cover, as in a vehicle or barricaded in a structure, or outdoors in heavy clothing at some distance.
Inside a residence, at distances measured in feet, it would do fine.
The term "rat hole wound" comes to mind.
of my career, there was a trend to go to #4B as a LE load, and I have some articles somewhere that discuss/suggest its use by the military. The emphasis seemed to be on higher hit probability.
Its performance past very short distances was considered disappointing, penetration wise, and against common light cover and heavy clothing, and LE seems to have gone back to 00B as a rule. My agency did. Note this is for general police use, where longer range confrontations MAY occur, or suspects could be using cover, as in a vehicle or barricaded in a structure, or outdoors in heavy clothing at some distance.
Inside a residence, at distances measured in feet, it would do fine.
The term "rat hole wound" comes to mind.
John Schwartz
Inactive
Two advantages with a shotgun that I always point out to people looking for a HD gun are the versatility of the ammo and their intimidation factor. Consider home invasion scenarios.
I think a lot of people who discount #4 buck are expecting home invaders to be wearing Kevlar or somehow invade your home from 50 yards away. If they've got body armor, then you're better off with a 30-06 than a 12 guage, and if they're 50 yards away, you'd have a tough time explaining to a judge why you felt the need to kill them. In any realistic scenario, #4 buckshot is more than adequate to defend your home.
- In most circumstances, burglars would rather go to jail than be shot, so even pumping the action is enough to intimidate and subdue them. Burglary is often a crime of convenience, and losers will break into a house to steal easily fenced items, but have no interest in hurting the occupants. Since criminal penalties for breaking into a house with a weapon are far more severe than simple burglary, savvy criminals will leave their weapons at home. In these cases the intimidating size and presence of a shotgun is all you need to win the day. Whether you have 00 or #4 buck won't matter.
- In the rare event that an intruder is not impressed by merely having a big huge gun pointed at them, a "warning" shot is usually enough to calm them down. Birdshot is great for this. It's loud and flashy, especially in a dark room. You can shoot someone's feet and give them a taste of things to come without mutilating them for life. You'll also have fewer concerns about over-penetration and legal ramifications of shooting someone. Police will be more sympathetic to a homeowner who doesn't immediately shoot to kill.
- At this point, the only people left as threats are probably on hard drugs, like PCP. My Mossberg 500 can carry five rounds in the tube, so even after firing a warning shot at the invader's feet, I've got for more shells ready to go. #4 buck shot is perfectly adequate at this point. In a home environment, it will be sufficient to rip any drug addict to shreds.
I think a lot of people who discount #4 buck are expecting home invaders to be wearing Kevlar or somehow invade your home from 50 yards away. If they've got body armor, then you're better off with a 30-06 than a 12 guage, and if they're 50 yards away, you'd have a tough time explaining to a judge why you felt the need to kill them. In any realistic scenario, #4 buckshot is more than adequate to defend your home.
Bill DeShivs
New member
John,
Welcome. It's painfully obvious you are new here, so I'll go easy on you-
There is very little accurate information in your post.
I'll leave it up to the others to explain it to you.........
Welcome. It's painfully obvious you are new here, so I'll go easy on you-
There is very little accurate information in your post.
I'll leave it up to the others to explain it to you.........
Bill DeShivs said:
Okay, I'll take a few points and someone else can take over.
John Schwartz said:
Old wives tale, your defensive shotguns chamber should already be loaded.
John Schwartz said:
Never fire warning shots, even at the ground. The only time you fire is with the intent to stop your assailant.
John Schwartz said:
Bird shot is for little birds, not defense.
I would go in to more depth, but a search of this forum on this subject will show you that we have been over this it ad nauseam. Plus others will come along and expound on the points I've outlined.
John Schwartz
Inactive
I think we just live in different areas and have different sorts of concerns. I knew a lot of dumb asses in high school, and they're the sort of kids who'd wind up getting arrested for B&E. Lots of tough talk, but deep down they're just plain dumb. Not a single one of them would resist at all if shot at with bird shot. Hardened dangerous criminals don't actually invade people's houses. Unless you're a drug dealer or something, you don't need to worry about people bringing guns to your house to rob you. Maybe where you are, things are different.
Seriously, the way you guys talk about it, it's like you're planning on a Taliban assault on your house. #4 buck would rip a person to pieces at a few yards. If you think that birdshot is ineffective at short ranges, let me ask you this. How much money would you charge somebody to allow them to shoot at your feet with birdshot? I doubt you'd let them do it for free. And to all the people who doubt #4 buck, what would you charge to let someone shoot you in the chest with it?
Seriously, the way you guys talk about it, it's like you're planning on a Taliban assault on your house. #4 buck would rip a person to pieces at a few yards. If you think that birdshot is ineffective at short ranges, let me ask you this. How much money would you charge somebody to allow them to shoot at your feet with birdshot? I doubt you'd let them do it for free. And to all the people who doubt #4 buck, what would you charge to let someone shoot you in the chest with it?
John, people with a great deal of training and experience are trying to tell you that you are mistaken and you aren't listening.
The racking of a pump shotgun only tells the bad guy(s) where you are. There is an internet myth about the overwhelming fear that comes over said bad guy(s) with that sound, but you won't find any evidence of that in real life and you won't find any of the top end trainers saying that either.
If a person or a group breaks int an occupied house, they are generally after more that the plasma tv. You seem to think that this only happens to drug dealers, well even the cops make frequent mistakes when raiding supposed drug dealers. You need to do some more research, home invasions are on the rise even with the fall of the overall crime rate, and these people come in armed.
As far as birdshot, that dead horse has been beaten into a pulp. The ballistic gelatin tests are out there and easily found by search. If you want something less scientific but still very useful, check out The Box O Truth website. An ugly surface wound might scare away the timid, and it might infuriate someone else. A heavy coat will stop most bird shot at close range.
Warning shots are never a good idea. In many jurisdictions, a warning shot is treated the same as firing directly at someone. Discharging a firearm may only be done to prevent death or great bodily harm. If you need to shoot, shoot at them. In your scenario of firing a shot into the floor, this leaves you with a gun pointed at the floor and the bad guy(s) close at hand. This can lead to the shotgun in their hands.
The racking of a pump shotgun only tells the bad guy(s) where you are. There is an internet myth about the overwhelming fear that comes over said bad guy(s) with that sound, but you won't find any evidence of that in real life and you won't find any of the top end trainers saying that either.
If a person or a group breaks int an occupied house, they are generally after more that the plasma tv. You seem to think that this only happens to drug dealers, well even the cops make frequent mistakes when raiding supposed drug dealers. You need to do some more research, home invasions are on the rise even with the fall of the overall crime rate, and these people come in armed.
As far as birdshot, that dead horse has been beaten into a pulp. The ballistic gelatin tests are out there and easily found by search. If you want something less scientific but still very useful, check out The Box O Truth website. An ugly surface wound might scare away the timid, and it might infuriate someone else. A heavy coat will stop most bird shot at close range.
Warning shots are never a good idea. In many jurisdictions, a warning shot is treated the same as firing directly at someone. Discharging a firearm may only be done to prevent death or great bodily harm. If you need to shoot, shoot at them. In your scenario of firing a shot into the floor, this leaves you with a gun pointed at the floor and the bad guy(s) close at hand. This can lead to the shotgun in their hands.
My thoughts on #4 would mirror bamaranger`s. In Ohio, around the mid to late 60`s, the Franklin Co. Sherrif`s Dep. went to #4 buckshot for reason`s explained similar to what bama suggested. Another reason was the fact that during a discharge in a close quarters dwelling (apartments etc), the powers-to-be felt the lesser penetration factor would be a better thing.
To date I believe they`ve went back to 00.
IMO, #4 buckshot will do the job in close quarters and should be used if your worried about over penetration. If not worried, use 00.
To date I believe they`ve went back to 00.
IMO, #4 buckshot will do the job in close quarters and should be used if your worried about over penetration. If not worried, use 00.
LanceOregon
Moderator
Man alive, not one single guy here grew up with a BB gun. That is truly amazing.
Anyone who ever owned a BB gun knows that they are .177 caliber. So BB is the shot size that is closest to .17 caliber. Cannot believe all the mistakes made here regarding the caliber of shot.
#4 Buckshot is going to be more traumatic than 00 Buck, for the person is going to be hit in far more places. The odds of being hit in vital locations thus goes way, way up.
If you use copper plated #4 buckshot, that is going to improve penetration. So make sure that the ammo you use is copper plated. They also tend to pattern better.
Any notion that choke has no effect on shotgun patterning is completely bogus and untrue. I have a light modified choke in my FN SLP. It is halfway between an improved cylinder and modified choke in its restriction.
Federal unfortunately discontinued their Premium 2 3/4 inch Buckshot load that used copper plate buckshot. However, they still produce it in a 3" inch version with 41 #4 Buckshot.
I still have over 100 rounds of the discontinued 2 3/4 inch load, which was loaded with 34 copper plated #4 Buckshot in it. And that is what is in my FN SLP currently:
My FN SLP holds 8 +1 of these shells. That is 9 x 34 = 306 Buckshot without reloading. That is a lot of holes.
.
Anyone who ever owned a BB gun knows that they are .177 caliber. So BB is the shot size that is closest to .17 caliber. Cannot believe all the mistakes made here regarding the caliber of shot.
#4 Buckshot is going to be more traumatic than 00 Buck, for the person is going to be hit in far more places. The odds of being hit in vital locations thus goes way, way up.
If you use copper plated #4 buckshot, that is going to improve penetration. So make sure that the ammo you use is copper plated. They also tend to pattern better.
Any notion that choke has no effect on shotgun patterning is completely bogus and untrue. I have a light modified choke in my FN SLP. It is halfway between an improved cylinder and modified choke in its restriction.
Federal unfortunately discontinued their Premium 2 3/4 inch Buckshot load that used copper plate buckshot. However, they still produce it in a 3" inch version with 41 #4 Buckshot.
I still have over 100 rounds of the discontinued 2 3/4 inch load, which was loaded with 34 copper plated #4 Buckshot in it. And that is what is in my FN SLP currently:
My FN SLP holds 8 +1 of these shells. That is 9 x 34 = 306 Buckshot without reloading. That is a lot of holes.
.
LanceOregon
Moderator
Looks like I was wrong about the P156 4B load being discontinued by Federal. It has been removed from Federal's retail product list on their website, but it is still included in their 2010 Law Enforcement Product catalog.
So they must still be making it for LE use.
See:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/WebData/2010_FederalLECatalog.pdf
.
So they must still be making it for LE use.
See:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/WebData/2010_FederalLECatalog.pdf
.
I love to read all the opinions... Look face the facts, most anything fired from a 12ga. can be deadly. Yea I read the Birdshot post, if you think your coat will stop a dose of 12ga bird, come on over and we'll try it. At less than 10 yards you're going to have a big problem covering your face and torso. If a load of 12ga bird to the head at 15 feet won't do major damage that #4 Buck will. Not a good site to witness, not Hamburger Hill but Hamburger Head. 
- Status