My practice comes from living in the country, where the burglar gun and the coyote-across-the-fence gun tend to be the same. Thus, the first shot is #4 for pellet count, followed by three 2.75" 00 or 000, and one 3.5" 00. As for recoil recovery, I've rapid-fired everything I use except the 3.5" 00 magnum 18-pellet load. It stays last, but it stays in because I really liked what I saw when I tried it on a plate rack. (I jerked it a bit low, missed the plates and knocked the rack back a couple feet, causing all 6 plates to surrender - I'm pretty sure that'll stop anything that finds its way to my door.)
Would you trust your life to #4 buck shot?
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My practice comes from living in the country, where the burglar gun and the coyote-across-the-fence gun tend to be the same. Thus, the first shot is #4 for pellet count, followed by three 2.75" 00 or 000, and one 3.5" 00. As for recoil recovery, I've rapid-fired everything I use except the 3.5" 00 magnum 18-pellet load. It stays last, but it stays in because I really liked what I saw when I tried it on a plate rack. (I jerked it a bit low, missed the plates and knocked the rack back a couple feet, causing all 6 plates to surrender - I'm pretty sure that'll stop anything that finds its way to my door.)
longcall911
New member
Just a couple of days ago I experimented at the range, sending 8 shells of 12 gage Rem 3" magnum #4 shot to a paper target 25 yds.
I then did the same with standard load (federal) 2 3/4" 00 buck. Looking at them both side by side I'd say the first guy was pretty torn up, definitely stopped, and probably made it.
The second guy definitely didn't make it.
That said, the #4 magnum load was much more fun as it kicked like crazy, shot fire out the muzzle, and produced a very big bang sound.
/*tom*/
I then did the same with standard load (federal) 2 3/4" 00 buck. Looking at them both side by side I'd say the first guy was pretty torn up, definitely stopped, and probably made it.
The second guy definitely didn't make it.
That said, the #4 magnum load was much more fun as it kicked like crazy, shot fire out the muzzle, and produced a very big bang sound.
/*tom*/
73-Captain
Moderator
#4 Buck
I'm sure I'll upset a lot of "experts" but both at home and ON DUTY I carry #4 Buckshot.
My biggest fear is not under penetration but over penetration.
Remember, you OWN all of those pellets whether they hit an attacker or miss and hit your neighbor. Good luck trying to justify killing your neighbor because you also shot your attacker.
Many years ago a friend and I in college did informal, non-scientific testing of various sizes of shotgun pellets. We tested against samples of "typical home wall construction" , 2"x4" frames with thin drywall on both sides and insulation in the middle. We even tried duplicating typical mobile home construction with 2"x4" frames covered with just paneling on one side and thin aluminum on the other with old insulation in between.
The idea of our testing was to find pellet sizes that would not penetrate totally but if it did there it would not have much energy/penetrating power left. We had another frame behind the frame we were shooting at to measure this.
What we wanted was a pellet size that would be fully contained by normal home construction.
Our testing led us to our adoption of #4 buck.
Although our testing was not "scientific" and was done many years ago, not long ago I read about a PD doing tests of the "optimum" shot size. They did similar tests to us and in similar ways! But, they used many different types of construction including typical inside wall, different types of doors and single and multi-pane windows.
Their extensive and much more thorough testing came to the same conclusion as us for OUR uses. For THEIR use they determined that #4 buck provide the best combination of penetration without excessive over penetration.
C.
I'm sure I'll upset a lot of "experts" but both at home and ON DUTY I carry #4 Buckshot.
My biggest fear is not under penetration but over penetration.
Remember, you OWN all of those pellets whether they hit an attacker or miss and hit your neighbor. Good luck trying to justify killing your neighbor because you also shot your attacker.
Many years ago a friend and I in college did informal, non-scientific testing of various sizes of shotgun pellets. We tested against samples of "typical home wall construction" , 2"x4" frames with thin drywall on both sides and insulation in the middle. We even tried duplicating typical mobile home construction with 2"x4" frames covered with just paneling on one side and thin aluminum on the other with old insulation in between.
The idea of our testing was to find pellet sizes that would not penetrate totally but if it did there it would not have much energy/penetrating power left. We had another frame behind the frame we were shooting at to measure this.
What we wanted was a pellet size that would be fully contained by normal home construction.
Our testing led us to our adoption of #4 buck.
Although our testing was not "scientific" and was done many years ago, not long ago I read about a PD doing tests of the "optimum" shot size. They did similar tests to us and in similar ways! But, they used many different types of construction including typical inside wall, different types of doors and single and multi-pane windows.
Their extensive and much more thorough testing came to the same conclusion as us for OUR uses. For THEIR use they determined that #4 buck provide the best combination of penetration without excessive over penetration.
C.
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I get flamed every time I post what my HD round is. I use 12 guage Remington Turkey loads. These are the 1 3/4 ounce of copper plated # 4 BIRD shot doing 1300 fps.
I am in a situation where overpenetration is just not allowable therefore I have to choose my loads carefully. True, I would "prefer" buckshot, it just isn't an option in my case.
I also don't think for a second, not even a half second any bad boy is going to catch almost 2 ounces of #4 plated shot in the chest and want to argue with me. If the simple "trauma" of this load to his body didn't stop the attack instantly, well my Berreta 390 has more left to spare. Ya, I know, it ain't a pump either.
I am in a situation where overpenetration is just not allowable therefore I have to choose my loads carefully. True, I would "prefer" buckshot, it just isn't an option in my case.
I also don't think for a second, not even a half second any bad boy is going to catch almost 2 ounces of #4 plated shot in the chest and want to argue with me. If the simple "trauma" of this load to his body didn't stop the attack instantly, well my Berreta 390 has more left to spare. Ya, I know, it ain't a pump either.
MaxHeadSpace
Moderator
At seven to ten yds, which is the typical "defense encounter" distance, I'd be fine with 8 birdshot in a 12 gauge. UPLAND game load, none of these "trap loads."
Shoot some like birdshot into a sheet of plywood at 7 paces (20 ft) and have a look see at the hole it makes. Big enough to put your fist through and not mess up your manicure.
I went to #1 Buck after realizing that I get nearly twice the pellets in the load and the difference in diameter is 0.03" --
Still looking for 3 1/2" 12 gauge loads in buckshot. It's all steel shot for geese.
Shoot some like birdshot into a sheet of plywood at 7 paces (20 ft) and have a look see at the hole it makes. Big enough to put your fist through and not mess up your manicure.
I went to #1 Buck after realizing that I get nearly twice the pellets in the load and the difference in diameter is 0.03" --
Still looking for 3 1/2" 12 gauge loads in buckshot. It's all steel shot for geese.
jammin1237
New member
Remember, you OWN all of those pellets....
+1 73-Captain...i have been reading posts on HD shot loads for some time now, always seems like hollywood creeps into the minds of people when HD is up for talk... if you take a round from any 12ga at any normal HD distance in the upper torso area you "will" stop what you are doing, if you are "lucky" you might survive...that is what "defense" means? when does it become offense....
+1 73-Captain...i have been reading posts on HD shot loads for some time now, always seems like hollywood creeps into the minds of people when HD is up for talk... if you take a round from any 12ga at any normal HD distance in the upper torso area you "will" stop what you are doing, if you are "lucky" you might survive...that is what "defense" means? when does it become offense....
rantingredneck
New member
Yeah I figured that out later. Sorry.
Oh, for what it's worth, the only two guys I have seen shot with BB were a little irritated. One as shot at approx 10 to twelve yards and he walked over a mile to be treated at at local hospital (husband with no sense of humor over a peeping tom).
Another, shot at about the same distance, went into a diner, sat down and waited for a ambulance to treat him. I sat a talked with him while he waited.
Of the two one was treated and went home and the other was treated and release, but suffered some minor nerve damage in his right arm.
Both of these guys were big boys (seriously big), and not fat, all muscle.
I spent time with both these guys as I investigated the shootings and I was pretty impressed with their condition considering what they were shot with, ...lots of holes but didn't really slow or stop them.
Based on my limited exposure, I might (read might) consider such ammo if I expected point blank or very close to that but with very much increase in distance, ....I am using something else.
Course, there are lots of variables but, really, I was surprised at what the shootings didn't do, rather than what the bb shot did.
Think I will stick with a minimum of #1 buck, and gel tests seem to support that such is a pretty good idea.
My personal preference, 8 or ten pellet 000, seconded by 9 or 12 pellet 00.
Paul
Another, shot at about the same distance, went into a diner, sat down and waited for a ambulance to treat him. I sat a talked with him while he waited.
Of the two one was treated and went home and the other was treated and release, but suffered some minor nerve damage in his right arm.
Both of these guys were big boys (seriously big), and not fat, all muscle.
I spent time with both these guys as I investigated the shootings and I was pretty impressed with their condition considering what they were shot with, ...lots of holes but didn't really slow or stop them.
Based on my limited exposure, I might (read might) consider such ammo if I expected point blank or very close to that but with very much increase in distance, ....I am using something else.
Course, there are lots of variables but, really, I was surprised at what the shootings didn't do, rather than what the bb shot did.
Think I will stick with a minimum of #1 buck, and gel tests seem to support that such is a pretty good idea.
My personal preference, 8 or ten pellet 000, seconded by 9 or 12 pellet 00.
Paul
rantingredneck
New member
Interesting........
Steel BB or lead BB?
Any thoughts on steel vs. lead and density/penetration depth differences?
Steel BB or lead BB?
Any thoughts on steel vs. lead and density/penetration depth differences?
rantingredneck
New member
Couple things......
Normal HD distance is just that. Normal. Forgive me if I digress a bit, but any discussion of normal begs a definition of what normal means. A Bell Curve.
In terms of HD you'll have most incidents falling in the middle of that curve. Then you have the outliers. If you prepare for normal you ignore the outliers. It's the outliers that might get you killed when you prepare for normal. I'm not talking about preparing for "zombies", but what happens when you have someone at distance shooting at or into your house? It's a definite outlier. And a situation for which smaller shot from a shotgun is next to useless. Your house is likely to not be terribly bullet proof either. Just a thought....
That is one of the very things that went through my head when I was testing #4's and deciding against them. The patterns from my guns were so blown that I had a hard time thinking about where the pellets that missed the bad guy would go. Also got to thinking about having to account for 27 pellets vs. 8 or 9 in the 00 loads I prefer.
As I said in an earlier post, I don't worry overmuch about overpenetration given the layout of my home and property. BUT....... as I just said above preparing for "normal" isn't the greatest idea either. I may be called upon to use my weapon in a field of fire that isn't what I'm exactly expecting. Given that I prefer a tight pattern with fewer pellets to have to account for.
Just different thinking on the circumstances is all. Not saying either is right or wrong necessarily.
When it comes down to it, weapon and ammo choices (whether it's for your home defense shotgun, your deer gun, or your CCW pistol) is a game of compromises. There's no perfect answer or we'd all be using the same thing.
Normal HD distance is just that. Normal. Forgive me if I digress a bit, but any discussion of normal begs a definition of what normal means. A Bell Curve.
In terms of HD you'll have most incidents falling in the middle of that curve. Then you have the outliers. If you prepare for normal you ignore the outliers. It's the outliers that might get you killed when you prepare for normal. I'm not talking about preparing for "zombies", but what happens when you have someone at distance shooting at or into your house? It's a definite outlier. And a situation for which smaller shot from a shotgun is next to useless. Your house is likely to not be terribly bullet proof either. Just a thought....
That is one of the very things that went through my head when I was testing #4's and deciding against them. The patterns from my guns were so blown that I had a hard time thinking about where the pellets that missed the bad guy would go. Also got to thinking about having to account for 27 pellets vs. 8 or 9 in the 00 loads I prefer.
As I said in an earlier post, I don't worry overmuch about overpenetration given the layout of my home and property. BUT....... as I just said above preparing for "normal" isn't the greatest idea either. I may be called upon to use my weapon in a field of fire that isn't what I'm exactly expecting. Given that I prefer a tight pattern with fewer pellets to have to account for.
Just different thinking on the circumstances is all. Not saying either is right or wrong necessarily.
When it comes down to it, weapon and ammo choices (whether it's for your home defense shotgun, your deer gun, or your CCW pistol) is a game of compromises. There's no perfect answer or we'd all be using the same thing.
rem870hunter
New member
no, unless it was all i had. but having said that. it is not all i have.
Swampghost
New member
This is so much fun!
Around here the average home is CBS due to hurricaines and the average 'home confrontation' is 12 ft. according to local LE. From my personal experiments even a Dove load is going to hurt somebody a lot at short range.
Around here the average home is CBS due to hurricaines and the average 'home confrontation' is 12 ft. according to local LE. From my personal experiments even a Dove load is going to hurt somebody a lot at short range.
I experienced an incident hunting this year, though not "scientific" in the usual sense of the word, but interesting to me. We were hunting grouse (the locals call 'em "pats") and woodcock in Oscoda County, Michigan over my ten year old setter, Kate, when, toward evening, a woodcock flushed from under her point. We were in typical heavy Michigan bird hunting cover and I got a glimpse of the bird going right to left and fired. I was using a Browning Double Auto with a modified choke and standard 1 ounce, tweve gauge shells with #7 1/2 shot. As I swung on the target my barrel crossed an intervening tree limb at a distance of about ten feet as I pulled the trigger. Down came the limb, narrowly missing Kate.
After the good-natured kidding and laughter from my two hunting buddies, we examined the tree and were surprised to see a limb fully four inches in diameter cut cleanly off, as if it were severed with a hatchet. And the tree was quite green. Though, if you noticed my earlier post, I am an advocate of #4 Buck as a self-defense load in a home situation, I will never again disparage ordinary birdshot as a close-range self-protection measure.
And, for those who might be interested, after a five minute search and as darkness was closing in, we found the bird!
After the good-natured kidding and laughter from my two hunting buddies, we examined the tree and were surprised to see a limb fully four inches in diameter cut cleanly off, as if it were severed with a hatchet. And the tree was quite green. Though, if you noticed my earlier post, I am an advocate of #4 Buck as a self-defense load in a home situation, I will never again disparage ordinary birdshot as a close-range self-protection measure.
And, for those who might be interested, after a five minute search and as darkness was closing in, we found the bird!
rantingredneck
New member
Yep, or you can switch to slugs in the shotgun. Of course a load of 00 buck is still dangerous at well past 100 yds. It's just not terribly organized into a pattern anymore. Definitely will make you want to keep your head down though. But then that brings back the issue of collateral damage.
Those fairly well shred the plywood target backers at my range too. I can fire 00 buckshot and put 8 or 9 holes in it, or I can fire a dove load and shred the wood at the same distance. Only problem is that wood isn't a very good simulation of flesh. Wood splinters and shreds where tissue doesn't so much.
armsmaster270
New member
I've gone to #2 Hevi Shot backed by 00 buck in my HD shotgun but i will reach for my Sig first. If I can't hit a BG from the hip in a bedroom with a Sig226 its time to hang up my gun
Jeff Mulliken
New member
If you have a BG hiding behind a sofa and you shoot him through the sofa it's gonna take some serious splaining in court, unless your in the middle of a serious and ongoing exchange of fire. In many states, under the law, that is about the same thing as shooting him after he surrenders.....
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