Would you trust your life to #4 buck shot?

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Yeah, I screwed that up. Meant to say birdshot....

Loses it's sarcastic punch when my fingers don't work.
 
"Magnum" in shotgun shells is deceptive. Not extra velocity. Just more lead (typically at lower velocity even). It's the extra lead that produces the extra felt recoil.
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That woud be nice. Reduced recoil (equals reduced velocity) would be nice also in something other than OO buck or slugs.

To the original question. Yes I'd trust #4 buckshot at inside the house distances. Trouble is, I've never found a #4 load that remotely approaches the pattern performance of the 00 loads I prefer.
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What do you mean specifically? You seem to have a good handle on this, so I'd like to know what parameters you were using and perhaps why. I hate to admit I haven't patterned my home shotguns. Note to self...

So, in my particular circumstance #4 compromises some longer distance performance with no upside for me.
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Better target coverage? Especially important if you are only getting, say a shoulder, arm (with gun of course) and part of a head presented? Less chance of overpenetration? Still getting 15" of ball. gello penetration at across the room distance, so good enough but not as much over penetration?

Just brainstorming there. I'm on the fence between 4 Buck and OO Buck (reduced recoil, which I have a pretty good supply).
 
Does anybody make a 3.5" standard velocity (i.e. not magnum, just more pellets) #4 load? I might as well take advantage of the long chamber in the 835, and while the 3.5" 18-pellet 00 loads are fine for me, my wife isn't going to be able to fire a second shot if I have one of those up front.
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As Clint Smith would say (and often does), Wolves sometimes travel in packs. LE has found that the low recoil Tactical 00 buck gives up nothing stopping power wise, and allows for quick follow-up shots.

Fed's Tactical (low recoil) with FliteControl wad produces 1 hole at 10 yds, a 4" pattern at 15yds, and a 7" pattern at 25 yds. It's also available in #4buck if one must have it. That's from my Scattergun Tech cyl. bore. Hornady TAP uses the same wad, but uses lead instead of plated shot like Federal.

Basic Buck Shot 101:

It's at LONG distance where the extra shot extends the range by increasing pattern density. Not in HD where quick followup shots can be MUCH more important than hitting Bubba with three times as much ordnace as needed, and maybe his friends not at all because you're still recovering from recoil.:cool:
 
What do you mean specifically? You seem to have a good handle on this, so I'd like to know what parameters you were using and perhaps why. I hate to admit I haven't patterned my home shotguns. Note to self...
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Going off the advice of some gentlemen more seasoned and experienced in shotgunnery than me, I like a 25 yd pattern about the size of a sheet of notebook paper.

Remington Managed Recoil 00, Remington Express (standard 9 pellet load) of 00 both do this well out of my guns, but Federal LE 127 00 does this in spades. I haven't tried many #4 loads, but the ones I have patterned, the pattern gets very wide very fast. By 10-15 yds the pattern is well off the paper.

Better target coverage? Especially important if you are only getting, say a shoulder, arm (with gun of course) and part of a head presented? Less chance of overpenetration? Still getting 15" of ball. gello penetration at across the room distance, so good enough but not as much over penetration?
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I don't particularly worry about over-penetration. Inside my house I'm not shooting toward my kids bedrooms with anything even if it were birdshot. Anything that can penetrate people can penetrate drywall and then people. It's not an easy problem to overcome by switching ammo. The good news is my house is laid out in such a way that I'll not likely be placed in a situation where the badguy is between me and my kids. I also don't have to worry overmuch about neighbor's houses. If I have to shoot straight down my hallway though, my plasma TV and my truck are likely both toast :(.

As to better target coverage, If only a shoulder or arm are presented it will be nigh shredded with a fist size pattern of 00 buckshot. The #4's I've tried spread too fast for my liking.

Everyone's situation and needs are different. 00 works for me out of my guns in my house/on my property. I've also killed quite a few deer and coyotes with 00 buck and have seen firsthand the performance on flesh. I've never had the opportunity to do the same with #4's.

Presently the bandoliers and shell belts around here are loaded with Remington 00. The HD shotguns in question are loaded with the Federal Flite control 00 though. The bandoliers have been full of the Remington stuff for awhile and I haven't rotated it through. I have no doubt it will work if called upon.

I've really come to like the Federal flite control shells. I've got about 350 rounds of the standard 127 00 (2 3/4" standard load). Remains of the last case I bought plus one that just arrived last week (ammunitiontogo.com). I've also started buying the 3" loads for deer. Killed one a couple weeks ago with it at 40 yds. Dropped in his tracks with his neck and shoulder full of buckshot
 
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Re Maggie Numb loads for HD and CD.....

Even the little 410 has more ME than 230 gr 45 ACP. Shotguns have oodles of energy to dump into a target. That's why they're so awesomely effective.

The trouble with small shot is they lose that energy faster than bigger ones, all else equal.

The very old round ball load for the 28 gauge ( around .55 caliber, fired at a MV of around 1500 FPS) may be a superb defense load. Since they stopped making it, it's hard to prove either way.

8 pellet,lowered velocity 00 loads seem to be just as effective as 15 pellet 00 loads and are A, easier on us and B, easier to recover from if there's need for more than one shot.

Feel free to test this. Fire off one round of 12 gauge, 1 oz, 2 3/4 dram or 1145 FPS birdshot, then a turkey round. Something like 1 5/8 oz will do. Back each round up with a similar one.

Fire away, having your bud time the split time, that between the first and second shot. Betcha there's a difference that may, Heaven forbid, make a crisis into a tragedy.

Re smaller buck, if you can find a load that your shotguns like, go for it. 1 buck may be the point where the lines of the graph cross for pellets count and retained energy. But, I've yet to find a load that has no flyers. 00, old Estate Buck among others keeps them all in the pattern.

BTW, my test shotguns have long cones and for most, choke selection for that load of Estate.

The Federal load of 4s I use is a 20 yard load for me. In actual use, given where the weapon is posted, shots opps are more like 3-5 yards.

Of course, your results may vary. Do us all a favor and actually test loads to find the one that best meets your criteria.....
 
Going off the advice of some gentlemen more seasoned and experienced in shotgunnery than me, I like a 25 yd pattern about the size of a sheet of notebook paper.
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Don't know that such patterns existed in defensive buckshot loads (I like his thinking)---until Federal started incorporating the FliteControl wad into their Tactical line--such as LE 127 00, as you mentioned.

Choke has no effect on pattern with FC. The wad leaves the muzzle with pellets in tact, before the "fins" at the rear open up to release the shot. A different concept than the standard plastic wad with petals that fold back from the front as soon as they hit the air. Just dissect one, and you'll see how they work.

I'm very much in favor of patterning shotguns with various loads because the shotgun isn't just for HD in my book. At close indoor (same room) ranges, there isn't any pattern with any load.

As Dave mentioned, low recoil LE ammo works very well on the street. 9 pellets of 00 produces fewer potentially lethal (to innocents) flyers, and follow up shots are much easier. The recoil is about like a skeet load. The ammo was developed to extend the range of all those LE cyl. bores out there that saw the pattern thin out at 15 to 20 yds. with Tactical ammo. Standard full power loads were even worse at blowing out patterns. No more. :cool:

Note: While Hornady TAP uses the same wad and produces very tight patterns, the shot is lead rather than plated like Federal. When testing TAP, some of the shot didn't release and wad and shot hit the target together. It happened about 1 out of 5, and only with cyl. bore. Didn't happen with IC. choke. I suspect the lead shot played apart, as well as the "back pressure" being more in the IC. I'm guessing.
 
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I would trust #4 . I have shot and killed many running deer with #4 buckshot. most of the deer 120lbs. + and capable of running on pure adrenaline with their heart blown out. for deer i use 3" mag with 41 - .24 cal pellets and for hd 2-3/4 with 27- .24 cal pellets.
 
Don't know that such patterns existed in defensive buckshot loads
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It can be done with non-FC loads, but it requires some choking. None of my HD guns (save one recent acquisition) is Cyl bore. All are either fixed IC or have interchangeable chokes.
 
Choke has no effect on pattern with FC. The wad leaves the muzzle with pellets in tact, before the "fins" at the rear open up to release the shot. A different concept than the standard plastic wad with petals that fold back from the front as soon as they hit the air. Just dissect one, and you'll see how they work.
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Very interesting. Any links? When I google it, I find mention of it in several forums but nothing from Federal.
 
Home Load

I have done a lot of research and also actual shot pattern testing on the different loads. The birdshot is exactly what it should be used for , birds, and would be unsatisfactory for HD. I load my good ole Mossberg 20" 12 gauge Cruiser with first BB followed by six 00 buck followed by a rifled slug.
 
there are way to many variables to be able predict what would happen in a home invasion...here is what i would do, measure the greatest distance in your house... 20 to 40 feet(unless u r rich) which is approx 7 to 14 yrds... pick a round any round and "practice" with it...if you hit center mass or head shot anything from a 12 guage at this distance the 12 ga will prevail and if for some freak circumstance it doesnt-- hit it again! this is why "practice" rules!
 
Same here. At the usual HD distance (~10yds max), anything out of a 12-gauge will do.
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Except if Bubba is hiding behind something--like a couch.

I've seen most of a charge of #4 buck glance off 1/4" plywood without penetration at a 90 deg. angle.

Then again, the purpose of going to smaller shot in doors is to reduce penetration for the safety of innocents. Shot size decreases, so does effectiveness under certain (but not all) circumstances. I say weigh in the factors.
 
when bubba is hiding behind a couch that means he knows you have a 12 ga... you take control since you have experience and have "trained"
 
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