With links this time!
- Thread starter DasBoot
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Read this story for the positive effects of illegals
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/17/60minutes/main2195789.shtml
Thanks, at my age my trigger finger is slow so any compliment is welcome.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/17/60minutes/main2195789.shtml
Thanks, at my age my trigger finger is slow so any compliment is welcome.
The point of the WSJ article was that it is nearly a wash. Not saying that there is a net benefit (I think it is a little more complicated determining that than we have resources for)
See, this is just a rehash of the premise. The point is that we have no idea exactly how this dynamic impacts the country. How do you compare company earnings offset by taxes lost? Is it one to one? I think it is more complicated than just saying it is so.
Listen, the only reason I am involved in this thread is that I hate it when stats are thrown out there that are misleading and poorly sourced (I guess this is where dasboot says YET AGAIN that the FBI was a source, but I guess I am just not seeing it -- can someone provide it for me?) The stats as presented were misleading and emotional.
I like the snopes link because it does go into each stat, attempt to verify, attempt to put it into context.
I guess you guys didn't like my wart metaphor. However, that's what I think this is. A wart. Not cancer. Not AIDS. Not anything drastic enough to cut off your arm demanding people carry citizenship papers around with them. But bad enough to fix your daily habits (fix SSN, dang it!)
As to whether what is good for companies is good for america and whether hiring illegal aliens (and not getting caught, which is the norm in this day and age) offsets losses in health care and welfare, I don't think we have enough information to determine that.
And Your source is?
How about refuting those stats with some of your own that prove these wrong, or are we to take your word for it?
Come on now we have a very good thread going here Show me some truth there and not just why you "hate" what seems to be truth.
Not to get personal but put up or shut up!
Hospitals are being closed for lack of funds municipalities are being strained financially and other ways also. People are dieing in the desert in the back of trucks in the sun, it has become a intolerable situation. Please show us all why these are wrong.
Gosh how much proof do you need?
Even without stats I see areas here that are falling into kaos from some Illegals and some of the activity there. It hurts all good folks citizens and immigrants that really do seek a better life.
It becomes obvious that some folks will not accept truth if it doesn't suit them no matter the proof.
Because citing statistics for LA does not reflect upon the US, for instance.
I don't have proof because I can't quantify the impact that illegal hirings has on any company or individuals bottom line. That isn't exactly a subsection declared to the SEC.
And the emergency room accounts for only part of a hospital. How can you say conclusively that it is illegal aliens that are causing it?
Sometimes you just have to use good ole common sense. You can do a search on your own for "cost of illegal immigration". You will get page after page of sites. Now, you can disregard them, but common sense says when you get results in that quantity there is surely a real problem. There is enough information to determine that there is huge social costs associated with illegals. In fact, I have noticed that the illegal supporters would rather discuss any part of the immigration issue than the cost to our social system. But if I had to guess you will still say there is no compelling evidence that illegals cost us much more than they supposedly save. Of course, you can live in areas as I have in Texas and California and feel the direct effects of this added cost....then you won't need to do any fancy web searches.
I am not denying that there is a cost of illegal immigration. However, without numbers, I can't know the benefit to compare.
Common sense tells me that with unemployment where it is at, and the type of jobs that illegal aliens do, there is a chance that americans by and large are earning more at higher paying jobs. I don't see a high unemployment rate, and I know that it would be trivial for me to go down and get a minimum wage job (if I weren't overqualified)
There is a certain amount of work that will be performed by the lowest income earners. In many cases, companies will outsource that work to access these lower wage earners. Is that a larger impact than employing illegal aliens? Nobody that has posted to this thread has claimed to have the tools to make that determination
Common sense tells me that with unemployment where it is at, and the type of jobs that illegal aliens do, there is a chance that americans by and large are earning more at higher paying jobs. I don't see a high unemployment rate, and I know that it would be trivial for me to go down and get a minimum wage job (if I weren't overqualified)
There is a certain amount of work that will be performed by the lowest income earners. In many cases, companies will outsource that work to access these lower wage earners. Is that a larger impact than employing illegal aliens? Nobody that has posted to this thread has claimed to have the tools to make that determination
Rangefinder
New member
The only problem with that kind of logic is that when a lack of action continues in the face of an overwhelming amount of evidence, it is often too late for ANY action to be taken by the time that proof is shown.
10 posts since my "post re-alignment" and STILL not a "positive" in sight.
This a perfect example of what I mean.
Here's someone that apparently thinks ILLEGAL immigration isn't really all that bad.
Whether you like them or not, there they are.
Please!
Either show us some "positive effects of ILLEGAL immigration" links or, as someone wrote before me, put up or shut up!
So if emergency care for ILLEGALS isn't the SOLE cause of a hospital closing, it's alright!:barf:
This a perfect example of what I mean.
Here's someone that apparently thinks ILLEGAL immigration isn't really all that bad.
Please show us in what way they are
and how they were
I was castigated for not providing sources for my info.
Whether you like them or not, there they are.
Please!
Either show us some "positive effects of ILLEGAL immigration" links or, as someone wrote before me, put up or shut up!
No, I am saying we don't even have numbers determining what impact it does have. If it accounts for <1% of costs, obviously it is negligible. Of course, it is a higher number, but we don't know what that number is.
Using blogs as sources (that don't provide references) is poorly sourcing. All I ask is for independent validation. I guess if you want to take their word for it, you can, but don't expect everyone to.
It is misleading, because you are making this out to be an illegal alien problem when it is a public infrastructure problem. If you have to tent your house every 6 months to get rid of your ant problem, take a hint and stop leaving cake on the counter! Don't be alarmist and post about how dirty the ants are.
People coming here (either legally or illegally) might just be a burden we need to bear for being such a great country. Just like a respresentative democracy necessarily has more transparency than a dictatorship.
Which of my sources was a blog?
I typed in "FBI crime stats on ILLEGAL aliens" for one.
And the same for "US Dept. of Justice".
These are BLOGS?
Again, an attempt to minimize ILEGAL immigration.
Oh no you don't.
We're staying on track this time!
This is useless.
You obviously do not have, or will not provide, any source showing positive effects of the topic at hand.
At this point, I pretty much rest my case which is, lest you be unsure,
ILLEGAL immigration is a detriment to this country and should be eradicted to the best of our ability.
This thread might as well be put to sleep.
(Still no positives. Imagine that.)
Psssssst........there aren't any.
I think this post has done a fine job of showing that.
This one, and the one you took the most quotes from.
*they* don't link to the FBI source, but to www.polipundit.com
Blogs come up in searches. Pretty amazing, huh?!
Oops, I meant to advocate land mines at the border. Especially the northern one.. CANADIANS!!! [shakes fist]
No, you have stated that illegal aliens are bad. What you HAVEN'T done is to determine whether the "eradication" would be worthwhile.
You refuse to come up with a viable solution though...oooh, that would be getting off topic. No, actually, it is intrinsic to the resolution of a problem.
So, if there is no benefit at all, then why would Bush be pushing for a guest worker program? There's your answer.
Here is an interesting link regarding welfare and the impact on the US economy. And another one regarding farm subsidies. These are good for putting things into context.
*they* don't link to the FBI source, but to www.polipundit.com
Blogs come up in searches. Pretty amazing, huh?!
Oops, I meant to advocate land mines at the border. Especially the northern one.. CANADIANS!!! [shakes fist]
No, you have stated that illegal aliens are bad. What you HAVEN'T done is to determine whether the "eradication" would be worthwhile.
You refuse to come up with a viable solution though...oooh, that would be getting off topic. No, actually, it is intrinsic to the resolution of a problem.
So, if there is no benefit at all, then why would Bush be pushing for a guest worker program? There's your answer.
Here is an interesting link regarding welfare and the impact on the US economy. And another one regarding farm subsidies. These are good for putting things into context.
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Rangefinder
New member
OK, now that we've established all that... How about actually brainstorming the solution process? It's plenty visible that there IS a problem, and unfortunate that we really don't have a reliable source to see just what the extent of the problem may be. But addressing the concept of the problem without addressing what to do about it does nothing at all. So I'll start down that road...
*Immediate cut-off of all gov't funding and subsidizing to everyone who can not provide proof of legal residency status.
*Redirection of those funds to fortify local, state, and federal agencies to enforce imigration violations.
There's a mild kick-off to get the ball rolling. Now lets see who can do what with it.
*Immediate cut-off of all gov't funding and subsidizing to everyone who can not provide proof of legal residency status.
*Redirection of those funds to fortify local, state, and federal agencies to enforce imigration violations.
There's a mild kick-off to get the ball rolling. Now lets see who can do what with it.
Playboypenguin
Moderator
I am going to have to change the topic to an even more pressing problem.
Too many posts and too small an attention span.
C'mon, how an I supposed to do more than just skim these posts and still keep up with what is happening on Battlestar Galactica at the same time???
This is yet another thread that has gotten away from me. We need to start limiting these debates to one paragrapgh per post, one quote or link, and only two pages worth of posts. Whoever can time it to where they get the 50th post wins. I just can't possibly keep up with this stuff. I loose more threads this way.
Too many posts and too small an attention span.
C'mon, how an I supposed to do more than just skim these posts and still keep up with what is happening on Battlestar Galactica at the same time???
This is yet another thread that has gotten away from me. We need to start limiting these debates to one paragrapgh per post, one quote or link, and only two pages worth of posts. Whoever can time it to where they get the 50th post wins. I just can't possibly keep up with this stuff. I loose more threads this way.
Rangefinder
New member
PBP>> Here's the radio version recap----We've established that there is likely a problem, but can't really get accurate assessment of the ultimate scope of the problem. So now we've just motioned for possible thoughts on solutions to the symptoms we can acknowledge to a greater or lesser degree.
Now, don't you feel like you've been sitting in on Congress?
Now, don't you feel like you've been sitting in on Congress?
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