With links this time!

[applesanity]

I remember this one time, I read a political cartoon about Pat Buchannan.

In the first frame, Pat is at a press conference and he's saying, "we need to build a wall on the U.S.-Mexican border. That'll keep the foreigners from coming here."

Then one of the news reporters says, "but how the hell do you expect to finance such a large task?"

To which Pat says, "Simple! We'll just hire a bunch of illegal aliens to do the job! They work for real cheap!"

 

[SecDef]

You just gotta remember to have them end up on the south side when they are done.

 

[rem33]

So if the factory is forced to pay both the US citizen and illegal alien the same $8.30 wages, than all incentive to hire an illegal alien is thrown out the window. Then if you want to under-pay a bunch of illegals on your assembly line, every single worker has to be underpaid. Which is never going to happen.

this isn't going to always work for the simple reason that to many illegals are single guys here or there for awhile, living in a house with 10 or more other guys sending money back home. they don't buy car Ins. or health In.s or a multitude of other things an American guy needs to have. We don't get free medical at the emergency room and not have to pay for it as just one example. Not a young guy trying to raise a family. Yes some illegals are family's but millions are not.

In the first frame, Pat is at a press conference and he's saying, "we need to build a wall on the U.S.-Mexican border. That'll keep the foreigners from coming here

."

Maybe have as a fine for coming illegal you need to spend x amount of time working on that fence as a way to so called pay for your coming illegal. Instead of a free bus trip to the border as is done now. What do ya think of that idea?

 

[applesanity]

This is a violation of labor laws. Why would you say it is okay?

I'm a bit confused but I do agree the existing laws that the Union reps tried to enforce onto that place were such that the incentive the break the law just outweigh the cost of punishment. I don't know an easy solution, but I do know that any law that ignores the fact that illegal labor is cheap and easy to get, fails.

 

[Playboypenguin]

So if the factory is forced to pay both the US citizen and illegal alien the same $8.30 wages, than all incentive to hire an illegal alien is thrown out the window. Then if you want to under-pay a bunch of illegals on your assembly line, every single worker has to be underpaid. Which is never going to happen.

But when the same factory never raises it's minimum pay, never offers better opportunities, never increases workplace safety, cuts John off at 34 hours and send him home even though the line is backed up and has Carlos work 46 hours with no overtime to make up the difference is when the real problem arises.

 

[applesanity]

Then maybe it's time to dig up your old resume. Wow, that was harsh. But life is harsh.

 

[rem33]

But when the same factory never raises it's minimum pay, never offers better opportunities, never increases workplace safety, cuts John off at 34 hours and send him home even though the line is backed up and has Carlos work 46 hours with no overtime to make up the difference is when the real problem arises

.

Yes a large part of the problem is employers can cheat by using the illegal and the poor worker can not complain so nothing is done. So the company saves money and the local has no job or a pitifully one to say the least.

Then maybe it's time to dig up your old resume. Wow, that was harsh. But life is harsh

It's a reality.

 

[Playboypenguin]

Then maybe it's time to dig up your old resume. Wow, that was harsh. But life is harsh

But when this becomes common practice, and all big companies are doing it, just where are you going to send that resume?

That is like sayingthere should be no minimum wage because workers would just go elsewhere if an employer did not pay enough. But if all employers did not have to pay a larger wage then who would do it willingly to do so?

 

[applesanity]

I don't know. The solution is just too complicated. At the moment, there just isn't one that will make most Americans happy, while treating illegal aliens with a modicum of human decency.

At least we're all not a bunch of isolationists aiming our shotguns south.

That is like sayingthere should be no minimum wage

Most economists will say that price caps or wage settings always hurt the economy. Nearly every instance of a minimum wage increase here or abroad has always led to a rise in unemployment, caused by an increased incentive to move operations abroad, or transforming to automated robot labor.

 

[Playboypenguin]

Most economists will say that price caps or wage settings always hurt the economy. Nearly every instance of a minimum wage increase here or abroad has always led to a rise in unemployment, caused by an increased incentive to move operations abroad, or transforming to automated robot labor.

A guy with the last name of Sizemoore here in oregon has always used a similar argument to try and hold down Oregon's minimum wage.

One time he was forced to pay fines for producing false information on a referendum form and in voter pamphlets. Other times he has simply been shown to be wrong. The studies that show this are biased studies that take circumstances caused by other factors like population growth, outsourcing, and other events and try to blame them on the wage increases. In all the cases I have seen, even when they are trying, they are only able to loosely tie these things together even when they were trying.

 

[RERICK]

Why pay a fair wage to someone who can negotiate with you when you can get slave labor for slave wages and they are too afraid to fight for their rights.

I think this is really a large part of why it goes on. $$$$$

 

[madmag]

Okay, I'm gonna disagree on this one. Simple lessons in economics, manufacturing enterprises, and the like will show you that arguments against outsourcing, offshore businesses, and just plain old hiring of illegals all fail. It's just cheap labor, plain and simple. And if some illegal is willing to "sweat" at a job for less pay than an American worker simply means that the American worker is a bit more greedy.

Remember when Japan was kicking our butts in economics in the 80's?

I am gonna disagree on your simple lesson. Well it is simple, but the fact is it is the added cost of social programs for illegals that is the real issue...not the low wages. Japan in the 80's has absolutely nothing to do with present day illegal workers. I was deeply involved in the transition of products due to low cost & good quality in Japan. This was a wage VS quality issue. We did not pay for the social services of Japanese workers....so don't invoke this as an example. Low cost labor can and will be dealt with. It is the huge associated cost of supporting this so called low cost labor force that's the real issue. Why don't you think greedy towns are just begging for illegal labor? Because they are now beginning to understand the real cost in social services and crime increase. Say what you want but the truth is it is getting worse, not better, on a daily basis. Yes greedy people cause this. They wanted cheap labor to serve their business, but now we are all paying the associated cost of that greed. Labor at twice what is paid to illegals would probably be a bargain.

Just remember when you see that illegal worker doing a roofing job and thinking that is low wage for what he is doing.....do you get free medical services, or send your kids to school for free, or not pay your taxes?

Please don't give me that Illegal supporters argument that we don't know what taxes they pay...yeah..Ok, I sent an extra million in this year to help Uncle Sam. You don't know that I didn't...just take my word...nothing to worry about. The check is in the mail.

Finally a voice of Sanity has entered the race: "Colorado Rep. Tom Tancredo announced Monday he would seek the Republican presidential nomination."

 

[2rugers]

The snopes link you provide sec. was VERY informative.

The LAPD's most wanted list was particularly interesting.

 

[DasBoot]

So Snopes is the only acceptable source on this subject!!
What sort of "context" do you need if the Dept. of Justice and FBI have certain stats for certain catagories?
DOes one have to go speak directly with the person who actually put pen to paper and wrote the stats?
Come on!
If that's the case, you can keep refuting the credibility of ANY report by just
disbelieving it one degree by one degree.There are enough stats from every major law enforcement agency in the country to back up the negative influences of ILLEGAL immigration.
All of this is irrelevant to what the premise of my original post was so let me try to get you all back on course.
There are those here that, whenver anyone brings up the issue of ILLEGAL immigration, they say things like

"Look at your skin. Is it white? If it isn't red...you're an alien, this isn't your country."

Or "Here goes Dasboot with another bashing thread".
Or "Did your wife run off with a Mexican or something".
Or "The only thing you did to be AMerican was squeese out of your mother's vagina."
All lovely remarks to be sure.
I paraphrase for times sake,but notice how they attack me, or like minded folks, for even broaching the subject.
I would venture that these sort of responses reveal, at the least, an empathy with ILLEGAL immigrants.
It would seem to me if you REALLY felt ILLEGAL immigration was a threat to our nation, you would not jump on the person bringing it up.
Rather you would show some form of solidarity with that persons way of thinking.
But, to many here, this is not the case.
And it is to those that I presented this thread in the first place.
You know who you are.
So again, I ask you, since you have such a warm place in your heart for those ILLEGAL aliens that are only coming here to better their lives, give us the positive results of their being here.
SHow me POSITIVE stats, from YOUR sources, that show what a blessing ILLEGAL immigration is to America.
That's why I started this thread.
Not to give you MY possible solutions.
So......let's hear 'em.

 

[SecDef]

The snopes link you provide sec. was VERY informative.

The LAPD's most wanted list was particularly interesting.

See, it's nice to have actual sources you can look up yourself, isn't it? Much better than some blog filtered by who random partisan people with an agenda.

Before we can discuss a topic, we need to have real information on the topic. And no, I don't expect all sources will will reflect a black/white opinion and do expect the reader to look at the facts and form opinions.

2rugers: I choose not to take your post as sarcastic simply because the information *IS* interesting.

 

[madmag]

It would seem to me if you REALLY felt ILLEGAL immigration was a threat to our nation, you would not jump on the person bringing it up.

Makes sense to me.

They protest too much so that makes me think your numbers are accurate.

 

[SecDef]

It would seem to me if you REALLY felt ILLEGAL immigration was a threat to our nation, you would not jump on the person bringing it up.

I'm not personally convinced that the cure isn't worse than the disease.

So again, I ask you, since you have such a warm place in your heart for those ILLEGAL aliens that are only coming here to better their lives, give us the positive results of their being here.
Show me POSITIVE stats, from YOUR sources, that show what a blessing ILLEGAL immigration is to America.

The problem is when you have a stat that breaks down illegal aliens and says X% is Mexican, y% is from Europe, etc.. you are breaking down the argument from "illegal aliens" into specific groups. That's why there were responses ranging from racism to brown skinned to assuming you were anti-mexican. You should have removed that particular statistic as it isn't relevant. It only becomes relevant when you propose solutions (such as building a fence), and NOT when you just want to know about net gain.

So, maybe you can see where the confusion in your audience lies?

 

[SecDef]

SHow me POSITIVE stats, from YOUR sources, that show what a blessing ILLEGAL immigration is to America.

Every hour an illegal alien works at below minimum wage is a boon to any person or company that hires them. If the risk (fines, penalties for breaking the law) outweighs the reward (impact on their bottom line) then they will stop. Until then, it will continue to happen.

It is capitalism in its purest sense.

 

[2rugers]

What makes you think my post was meant to be sarcastic.

I meant exactly what I wrote: That the LAPD's most wanted list in the snopes link was very interesting.

I read the wsj. link you suggested and Redworm provided and found no "net benefit" you spoke of in your original post, quite the contrary in fact.

Suggesting there is a "net benifit" contained therein shows you 1). either did not read it or 2). did read it and somehow found a positive effect of illegal immigration. Which is worse?

 

[madmag]

Every hour an illegal alien works at below minimum wage is a boon to any person or company that hires them. If the risk (fines, penalties for breaking the law) outweighs the reward (impact on their bottom line) then they will stop. Until then, it will continue to happen.

Is that supposed to be a positive stat? Boon to the company that hires them..yes, but certainly not a boon to the tax payers that have to pay the expense of the free social services used by illegals. Dosen't look positive to me.