With links this time!

[Playboypenguin]

Most of the"evidence" (and I use that word loosely) is just cut and paste from "agenda biased" blogs and personal opinion sites that cite no credible sources for their report other than a speech given by an FBI agent (which the use most of the information from in an incorrect or misleading way) and a supposed LA Times article that the times says they took completely out of context. So much of this is simply a case of a person with a personal bias seeking out others with the same bias and using their "opinion" as a foundation.

This link...http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp...will provide most of the answers to these claims and explain the misleading nature of most of that information. Especially the difference between an "outstanding" or "unresolved" warrant and "all" warrants.

A quick explanation would be that if 100,000 warrants are issued and of those 100,000 there are 10,000 are for illegals that would mean 10% ofALL warrants were for illegals (note they do not specify what country). If they then manage to resolve 99, 900 of the warrants (the vast majority of warrants are resolved) and 100 remain unresolved the percentage of "outstanding" warrants for illegals is going to be alot higher because if even 95 of the 10,000 left the country that means that 95% of the few remaining warrants are for illegals. Illegals are much more likely to avoid arrest since they can easily leave the country. Whereas they will likely catch almost all citizens that have a warrant issued for them within 6 months they are less likely to be able to catch the illegals that do not reside here.

This all being said, I am very pro-hardline approach when it comes to dealing with illegal imigration. I am unsure about work visa and day passes but I am not at all unsure about lolligaggers and hang arounds. I am also not at all unsure about busting and punishing anyone caught crossing illegally. I just don't feel the need to use misleading statistics, propoganda, or any type of hate speech to demonize Mexicans or any race of people. I feel the facts alone are enough to make it clear something needs to be done without making it a violent and hateful endeavor. There is no need to hate the people coming across or try to make them out to seem like ruthless thugs. There are just too many legitimate reasons to stop them from doing so to need to resort to this type of tactic.

 

[SecDef]

So which is it, 95% of outstanding homicide warrants or 95% of all homicide warrants in LA are for illegal aliens.

While the language could have been more plain they are clearly referring to the same thing.

Well, the language HAS been changed, which is why I would like something to verify with.

They may reference the same statistic, but they aren't the same at all.. 95% of all homicide warrants is a huge number (scary high!). 95% of outstanding warrants means that we have trouble locating someone that doesn't report an address (duh!)

Makes sense to then go back to the source to see where the discrepancy lies.

I just don't even know where to start... Of course the number of jailed felons among this group of 100% criminals(by definition) matters.

No, you are stripping context so we have no frame of reference.

Meanwhile, there can be no "net benefit" from an unregulated mass of law breakers from another country.

This is called "begging the question".. i.e. proving the conclusion by using the conclusion as one of the premises... it isn't sound. It is just circular logic.



I see no further reason to participate in this thread until DasBoot makes a point.

PBP: excellent post. would read your post again A+++++++++. timely delivery.

 

[fourtwentytexas]

Give it a rest. This is not what this forum is for.

 

[pipoman]

We all know illegal immigration is a problem. Some want to continue as if there is no problem, others want to complain about it, yet others want to mandate cost prohibitive enforcement policies. IMO it is time to stem the tide of illegals coming in then handle the issues with those already here. I think that those who are already here should be allowed to remain for no other reason than there is really no way to get rid of them. Instead of trying their SS contribution should be 1.5 times the native rate for say 10 years after their guest worker pass is provided. After the 10 years they can become citizens if they have not committed any felonies during that time.

Give it a rest. This is not what this forum is for.

That is a pretty bold statement for 23 posts.

BTW is "fourtwentytexas" = 4:20 Texas?

 

[rem33]

So far i am enjoying this thread. Illegals are a political problem amongest others. We're debating it with out the usual crapo and I have been as guilty as any, lets keep it up.

Seems some of you are giving good answers others are going the PC route. You guys that are do you have a good idea of how to help straighten this thing and not just yell " born here " or Skin color" or what ever? Please don't take any of that personal I am trying to ask a question a sincere question. lets debate this. Good thread so far and a " in a way needed" one.

Emotions run high on this one lets keep the emotion out and the Ideas flowing.

 

[madmag]

Give it a rest. This is not what this forum is for.

Following is from the sticky at L&P.

To my mind, the purpose of the L&P forum is to tie together the many threads that threaten our daily Liberties and Freedoms.

Seems to fit this forum just fine.

 

[cuate]

Try to look past the influx of uninvited, illegal invaders from Mexico and instead of hatred of them consider that American Politicians of both sides of the aisle are looking forward to the eventual votes for their particular parties, have done little to stop the invasion and in reality aren't going to stem the tide. Also consider employers who are unwilling to pay Americans a living wage and they who have to have their "yard man, house maid, farm and ranch man" as if they actually owned them.

Rather, think about the freedoms we citizens are losing bit by bit caused by
nutcase American politicians who want to live under the UN World Government and regulate everything by statute and law and punish you for
loving the freedom we once enjoyed.

Jokingly, and not in seriousness I have considered becoming a Mexican if Hillary was to be elected President.........Not really.

 

[rem33]

Seems to me that with the rapid growth rate of people coming across compared to a couple of decades ago and the need for national security and drug runners. The border needs to be closed.

Now we have the folks here and more that want to come. The ones here need to become legal some way, how? or should they all go home? I kinda doubt that. More that want to need a viable option too, Now we have the fairness of one's here illegal and ones trying to come legal that were in line first. There are so many problem associated with this but if allowing it to continue is only going to create more.

First off IMO we need to separate the wheat from the chaff (sp) so to speak.
But nothing can be done till it is known who is here and where.
In some ways it is an advantage to stay illegal, taxes and medical for just a couple. Maybe better incentives are needed for folks to want to become legal. Perhaps combined with punishment for those that don't. What a mess!

 

[madmag]

Just to let you know why it makes me steaming mad to hear Mexico complain about not letting in their illegal workers.

Here is how it works in Mexico. I worked in Mexico for a large US based company. I had to pay US & Mexico income tax. In addition I had to have my passport and also a work visa issued by the Mexican Consulate. If you are caught working without a work visa you can be arrested by the federal police. If you are injured on the Mexico side then they will keep you in the hospital (or jail) until you pay the bill.


What a system!:barf:

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Look at your skin. Is it white? If it isn't red...you're an alien, this isn't your country."

So...

It's only "my" country when I'm sunburned?

Even the "native americans" were immigrants.

 

[madmag]

I am afraid the sad Truth is there is little difference between main line Republicans and Demo's. It will take someone with views like Representative Tom Tancredo to make a change. Tancredo has announced he will run but he has to win nomination to have a real chance. His chances are probably slim. Any politician not willing to bow to the immigration lobbies has a hard road ahead.

At least for me it gives someone to vote for rather than wasting my vote like I did when I voted for Bush.....wow, what a huge (embarrassing) mistake.

"Look at your skin. Is it white? If it isn't red...you're an alien, this isn't your country."

I am originally a Red(neck) Kentuckian...hey all you other people are immigrants.

 

[Playboypenguin]

The only way to stop the illegal flow is to take away the jobs. The only way to do that is to start actually enforcing the laws we now have and crack down on the big businesses that make a profit off the sweat of illegals at the expense of the American worker.

Some seasonal and temporary jobs would need a supply of cheap labor (such as fruit and vegetable harvesting) which is why I am ok with giving seasonal and day visas to immigrant workers who do these jobs.

However, there are a lot of good jobs here in Oregon where the wages are held down by illegals coming up, staying permanently and working for minimum wage and no benefits and being afraid to complain or ask for more.

My sister worked for Viking windows (owned by Pella windows) here in Oregon. They supply windows to Lowes and Home Depot. Out of a 200 man crew in here facility she said at least half were illegal aliens. Most of those spoke no english. Becauuse of this they could never get insurance or pay raises because the illegals would never sign on to negotiations out of fear of being deported. One time when the workers tried to have a union rep come in and talk to them the company sent out a letter stating it was going to need to check everyones visas and citizenship papers as an intimidation tactic to prevent anyone from coming to the meeting.

The govt finally stepped in once and shut them down for like a week. After the week was up they simply reinstated all their illegal workers and went back to the same practices that got them shut down. They received a fine that only measured into the few thousand dollar range and a slap on the wrist and were then able to go back to hiring mostly illegals.

 

[applesanity]

and crack down on the big businesses that make a profit off the sweat of illegals at the expense of the American worker.

Okay, I'm gonna disagree on this one. Simple lessons in economics, manufacturing enterprises, and the like will show you that arguments against outsourcing, offshore businesses, and just plain old hiring of illegals all fail. It's just cheap labor, plain and simple. And if some illegal is willing to "sweat" at a job for less pay than an American worker simply means that the American worker is a bit more greedy.

Remember when Japan was kicking our butts in economics in the 80's?

Reagan started the change. America is gradually and most definitely becoming a service economy over a manufacturing economy. How many things do you buy say "made (with pride) in the USA" anymore? Even if they do, they were probably assembled from things not made in the USA.

Finshing with a high school diploma or GED so you can spend your life stamping sheet metal ain't gonna cut it anymore. An illegal alien, or even a laborer in China can do the same job for significantly less pay. The american standard of living, plus the evolution of American economics, simply requires our workers to have higher education, so they can do the skilled labor that trumps any other nation.

I totally agree that our border problems are much larger than our politicians and mainstream media make it out to be. But the argument of "they're taking our jobs" has never worked, and it never will. What should be done is better enforcement, better border patrol, and yes, even a compromise or two- some sort of temporary worker visa program. Madmag has to pay and fill out forms to work in Mexico. So let's give Mexican laborers the same options.

Protectionism fails. Who here wants to defend protectionism? Every credible economist, from BOTH sides of the political spectrum, will laugh.

As for the original post, I agree with PlayboyPenguin as well. Two of the links are from biased websites, and one link is a full blown blog. As for the only credible link, the stats can mean anything. Anything.

An increase in prosecutions doesn't have to say that there are more offenses, just better enforcement. Longer jail sentences doesn't have to mean more violent crimes, just stricter punishments.

What we need are real stats reported from real government sources. where the website ends with a "____.gov," not a "____.blogspot.com." What we we need are undeniable statistics that say, "from 19XX to 20XX, the number of felony crimes commited by illegal aliens rose 30+%." Oh, that's right, those stats don't exist.

I contend that the current string of threads against muslims and mexicans aren't motivated by a love and caring for America. They just reek of racism. If you don't like Mexicans, or if you don't like Mexicans sharing your zip code, just say it. Don't hide behind a bunch of made-up numbers and figures. I'm not claiming any positives of illegal immigration. I'm saying that it's inevitable.

 

[DasBoot]

I only get to sit at the PC once or twice aweek, so my post will be spread out.
First, I don't believe that, in order to present issues surrounding any given problem, you must first have ideas on how to fix it.
Some of you think stats directly from the FBI site and Dept. of Justice are bogus, than it's a waste even talking to you.
Briefly....Create a task force to actively pursue businesses hiring illegals.
STIFF fines and/or imprisonment for the employer.
Deportation for the illegal.
Allow cops to, as part of their regular duties, check IDs and verify citzenship during traffic stops, arrest, questioning, etc.
Put a real presence on the border...National Guard, Border Patrol, whatever.
And give them the authority to IMMEDIATELY transport someone caught invading this country illegally back to the other side.
Build some sort of physical impediment to those trying to get over the border.
Stiff jail time for coyotes and drug runners.
Cease ALL social services to illegals.
No free schooling.
No free medical except in the most severe circumstances.
No food stamps, drivers lic, etc, etc.
Make being caught here as an illegal a VERY unpleasent experience overall.
These ideas come to mind now as I'm rushing back to work.
I just didn't want to read about someone crying that I'm just a bomb thrower.
If I had time Icould delve into the above even more.
This will do for now.

 

[Playboypenguin]

I totally agree that our border problems are much larger than our politicians and mainstream media make it out to be. But the argument of "they're taking our jobs" has never worked, and it never will.

I agree with alot of what you said but i will have to also inform you that the situation does exist where illegal labor is holding down pay and benefits for legal workers. Why pay a fair wage to someone who can negotiate with you when you can get slave labor for slave wages and they are too afraid to fight for their rights.

A person can say an argument is not valid all they want, but when people can cite real world situations (like the one I posted) where it is the case I think that makes the argument completely valid.

 

[rem33]

Okay, I'm gonna disagree on this one. Simple lessons in economics, manufacturing enterprises, and the like will show you that arguments against outsourcing, offshore businesses, and just plain old hiring of illegals all fail. It's just cheap labor, plain and simple. And if some illegal is willing to "sweat" at a job for less pay than an American worker simply means that the American worker is a bit more greedy.

Large manufacturer not far from here that starts the working employee at $8.30 do you really think that cheap of labor could happen without illegals?

Finshing with a high school diploma or GED so you can spend your life stamping sheet metal ain't gonna cut it anymore. An illegal alien, or even a laborer in China can do the same job for significantly less pay. The american standard of living, plus the evolution of American economics, simply requires our workers to have higher education, so they can do the skilled labor that trumps any other nation

Yes this would be ideal but millions of kids don't for a mulitude of reasons. What are these young Americans suppose to do? Work for $8.30 a hour? They like all of us want a good life, raise famileys, buy a new car or gun now and then or take the kids to Disney Land. Lets look to our own first. Someone has to cook the burger or clean the toilet, take care of the landscape why not citizens if and when they need work?

How about this, hire the illegal if no other help is available. If a citizen comes along and needs a job he gets it. Sounds unfair huh? but in a way this is what is really out there and not what we wish that everyone has a BA at least. Lets talk real life not what we wish was.

 

[applesanity]

Oh, the situation is totally unfair at your sister's workplace. The question is, are the illegal aliens doing the same exact job as some of the legal workers, or are the illegal aliens doing a bunch of grunt work, while the american workers are doing more skilled jobs?

if the legals and illegals are doing the same exact job, then nothing can be done. Think of the employer - "gee, carlos munez down on the plant floor hopped a border to work 3 bucks an hour, while Joe McCormick, the next down on the assembly line, is demanding a living wage. Yeah, right."

Aren't American labor laws such that if you work 40+ hours a week, you're entitled to benefits? I'm sure Joe has a dental plan but Carlos doesn't.

But if your sister's job is on a different tier than the illegal alien's grunt tasks, and she's getting a bad deal, then you really do have an unfair labor issue that royally sucks.

 

[applesanity]

Sounds unfair huh? but in a way this is what is really out there and not what we wish as everyone has a BA at least.

Okay, my compromise. Instead of making or enforcing laws that unfairly target illegal aliens, how about this law:

"Every worker doing the same job for the same number of years must have equal pay." Sounds fair, yes?

So if the factory is forced to pay both the US citizen and illegal alien the same $8.30 wages, than all incentive to hire an illegal alien is thrown out the window. Then if you want to under-pay a bunch of illegals on your assembly line, every single worker has to be underpaid. Which is never going to happen.

 

[SecDef]

Dasboot: Your OP was alarmist and factually unsupported. I stand by my assessment that it was a grenade. At best, the sources you presented were misleading.

Please read Redworm's link to the WSJ. Please read the Snopes link from PBP.

Both of these sources do a lot of research to support their their positions.

Some of you think stats directly from the FBI site and Dept. of Justice are bogus, than it's a waste even talking to you.

You didn't provide stats from the FBI site, and the DOJ link you provided didn't provide any context. How are we supposed to perceive an increase in pushment from 4 months to 21 months? Was there a change in legislation? Doesn't this support the theory that these cases ARE being prosecuted more firmly?

Allow cops to, as part of their regular duties, check IDs and verify citzenship during traffic stops, arrest, questioning, etc.

Don't they already? I am not a proponent of a "please show me your papers" society.

Build some sort of physical impediment to those trying to get over the border.

Even with a Repub majority, this was voted for, then when the funding vote came up, it failed. You can't blame a particular party here. I wonder what the underlying motivation is. It certainly isn't to obtain votes as legal immigrants are against illegal aliens (direct competition) and illegal aliens can't vote!

I just didn't want to read about someone crying that I'm just a bomb thrower.

If you had done the research yourself, you would have found the snopes and WSJ articles. You already had a thread closed on this subject. You know this forum. You knew exactly what you were doing. Or maybe you didn't. Which is worse?

 

[Playboypenguin]

Oh, the situation is totally unfair at your sister's workplace. The question is, are the illegal aliens doing the same exact job as some of the legal workers, or are the illegal aliens doing a bunch of grunt work, while the american workers are doing more skilled jobs?

if the legals and illegals are doing the same exact job, then nothing can be done. Think of the employer - "gee, carlos munez down on the plant floor hopped a border to work 3 bucks an hour, while Joe McCormick, the next down on the assembly line, is demanding a living wage. Yeah, right."

Aren't American labor laws such that if you work 40+ hours a week, you're entitled to benefits? I'm sure Joe has a dental plan but Carlos doesn't.

Pay attention to what you are actually saying. You ase saying "aren't there laws that tell the people that are breaking the laws how to behave?" The employers that are willing to disregard documentation laws are also willing to violate other labor laws as long as they can get away with it and the fines cost them less than doing the right thing would cost.

If the company trains the illegals to work the machines and they do the same job how does that somehow justify paying them below legal wages and no benefits? And why can nothing be done about it? This is a violation of labor laws. Why would you say it is okay?