Why the hypocrisy on handgun capacity?

While there are certainly no lack of arguments over whether or not the capacity of a revolver is sufficient, I think perhaps you don't see capacity, for lack of a better term, obsessed over in revolvers like you do semi-autos because of the other fundamental differences between the two platforms.

A revolver has many attributes that are quite different from most semi-automatics besides just capacity. Those of us who gravitate towards revolvers (myself included) tend to place more weight on attributes like the power of the cartridge, reliability (which is a whole different rabbit hole in and of itself), simplicity, etc. above capacity because, frankly, even the lowest capacity semi-automatics can equal or exceed that of most revolvers. Also, revolver guys don't really get too hung up on the capacity of one revolver over the next because the difference is usually one or two rounds.

By comparison, often the biggest difference between two semi-automatic pistols is their capacity. For example, a S&W Model 39 and Beretta 92FS are both of similar size, action, construction and have very similar manuals of arms, however the S&W holds 8 rounds in its magazine while the Beretta holds 15. Also, the difference in capacity from one semi-auto to another of similar size is often much greater than the difference in capacity between two similarly sized revolvers. For example, a Colt King Cobra or Kimber K6S both hold 6 rounds as opposed to the 5 of a Ruger SP101 or S&W Model 60 . However, a Sig P365 can, depending on the magazine, hold 10-12 rounds as opposed to the 7-8 of the original S&W M&P Shield 9mm.

Basically, semi-auto guys tend to argue more about the capacity of this gun over that one because, frankly, semi-auto guys are more likely to place capacity further up the list in their hierarchy of important features on a defensive handgun than revolver guys are.
 
While there are certainly no lack of arguments over whether or not the capacity of a revolver is sufficient, I think perhaps you don't see capacity, for lack of a better term, obsessed over in revolvers like you do semi-autos because of the other fundamental differences between the two platforms.

A revolver has many attributes that are quite different from most semi-automatics besides just capacity. Those of us who gravitate towards revolvers (myself included) tend to place more weight on attributes like the power of the cartridge, reliability (which is a whole different rabbit hole in and of itself), simplicity, etc. above capacity because, frankly, even the lowest capacity semi-automatics can equal or exceed that of most revolvers. Also, revolver guys don't really get too hung up on the capacity of one revolver over the next because the difference is usually one or two rounds.

By comparison, often the biggest difference between two semi-automatic pistols is their capacity. For example, a S&W Model 39 and Beretta 92FS are both of similar size, action, construction and have very similar manuals of arms, however the S&W holds 8 rounds in its magazine while the Beretta holds 15. Also, the difference in capacity from one semi-auto to another of similar size is often much greater than the difference in capacity between two similarly sized revolvers. For example, a Colt King Cobra or Kimber K6S both hold 6 rounds as opposed to the 5 of a Ruger SP101 or S&W Model 60 . However, a Sig P365 can, depending on the magazine, hold 10-12 rounds as opposed to the 7-8 of the original S&W M&P Shield 9mm.

Basically, semi-auto guys tend to argue more about the capacity of this gun over that one because, frankly, semi-auto guys are more likely to place capacity further up the list in their hierarchy of important features on a defensive handgun than revolver guys are.
Well put, I think this pretty much sums it up.
 
While there are certainly no lack of arguments over whether or not the capacity of a revolver is sufficient, I think perhaps you don't see capacity, for lack of a better term, obsessed over in revolvers like you do semi-autos because of the other fundamental differences between the two platforms.

A revolver has many attributes that are quite different from most semi-automatics besides just capacity. Those of us who gravitate towards revolvers (myself included) tend to place more weight on attributes like the power of the cartridge, reliability (which is a whole different rabbit hole in and of itself), simplicity, etc. above capacity because, frankly, even the lowest capacity semi-automatics can equal or exceed that of most revolvers. Also, revolver guys don't really get too hung up on the capacity of one revolver over the next because the difference is usually one or two rounds.

By comparison, often the biggest difference between two semi-automatic pistols is their capacity. For example, a S&W Model 39 and Beretta 92FS are both of similar size, action, construction and have very similar manuals of arms, however the S&W holds 8 rounds in its magazine while the Beretta holds 15. Also, the difference in capacity from one semi-auto to another of similar size is often much greater than the difference in capacity between two similarly sized revolvers. For example, a Colt King Cobra or Kimber K6S both hold 6 rounds as opposed to the 5 of a Ruger SP101 or S&W Model 60 . However, a Sig P365 can, depending on the magazine, hold 10-12 rounds as opposed to the 7-8 of the original S&W M&P Shield 9mm.

Basically, semi-auto guys tend to argue more about the capacity of this gun over that one because, frankly, semi-auto guys are more likely to place capacity further up the list in their hierarchy of important features on a defensive handgun than revolver guys are.
I agree except with your assessment of cartridge power in a revolver vs semi auto. My mid size carry weapon is a 10 mm. I don't feel I am giving up power to anything short of a 44 mag. I am for all practical purposes equalling a 41mag.
 
I don't know if I agree at all with what you are saying.

Revolvers have a LOT of cons.
-Revolvers carry like an orange.
-While smooth, a revolver has a double action trigger with 100% of the trigger travel via your finger. A P365 is 100% striker sprung.
-An experienced shooter knows the gas from a cylinder is dangerous. Anyone who's cleaned a revolver knows this as the build up on the forcing cone.
-Reliable? ever have a revolver lock up? Build up, binding, yoke, primer backing out...the list of possible problems is greater than an auto.
-Not arguing if more rounds are need, but there is no good solution for more rounds in a revolver.

This is a guy with many revolvers.

I think this convo is a bit off in set up. But the main point being, the PM9 was the smallest 9mm for years. What is the problem with almost the same sized gun having double the capacity while not having a terrible trigger (both being 100% cocked)?

There isn't one.

The way I think it is the opposite from the OP. The P365 really brings the heat to full size guns. Not everyone is a collector.

Glocktalk.com has a thread asking what would you start with if you started over. Almost all the responses are a P365 then go from there. It's a do all. Starting fresh, a person really gets a lot of ownership from a gun that is almost comfortable in the pocket, has a Walther like trigger, carries as many as a full size, and shoots like a full size.
 
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Glocktalk.com has a thread asking what would you start with if you started over. Almost all the responses are a P365 then go from there. It's a do all. Starting fresh, a person really gets a lot of ownership from a gun that is almost comfortable in the pocket, has a Walther like trigger, carries as many as a full size, and shoots like a full size.


As I’ve pointed out before and wild cat has personally experienced and posted about, not all P365 variants have a “Walther like trigger”. That said I think it’s a decent trigger.

I have a P365 XL, which is even larger and heavier than the standard P365. For me it doesn’t shoot like a full size pistol (or even a Glock 19 sized pistol) and certainly there are full size pistols that can carry more ammunition. I’ve seen many people that are enamored with this pistol make these claims on various forums. Can that pistol be shot very well and do I think it’s potentially a paradigm changing firearm (not a fad)? Yes I think so. But size and weight are what they are. It’s no different to me than people that like the added “power” of cartridge X over say a 9mm and say they shoot it just as quickly for the same level of accuracy. I’m not sure how they’re able to defy physics, but I’m not. The added weight and size of larger pistols tend to make them more controllable for most people. I’ve done dozens of courses now where I and the others in the class shot 500-1000 rd in various drills over 8 hr. There was a measurable difference in the performance of people with larger and heavier pistols, both on a timer and on paper. I think the more realistic question is do pistols like the P365 get close enough in shootability to those larger pistols while doing so in a package that is easier to conceal for most people. Again I think the answer to that is yes. That being said I personally would not suggest a P365 as a person’s first pistol.

Chris Baker explored this topic to an extent in a video he did on the Glock 48, with many people claiming the existence of that pistol negates the need for the Glock 19. His experience is similar to my own.

https://youtu.be/mvODnCPs6fM


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I agree except with your assessment of cartridge power in a revolver vs semi auto. My mid size carry weapon is a 10 mm. I don't feel I am giving up power to anything short of a 44 mag. I am for all practical purposes equalling a 41mag.
So your saying your 10mm can shoot a 220gr bullet at 1400+fps?
 
Originally posted by reynolds357
I agree except with your assessment of cartridge power in a revolver vs semi auto. My mid size carry weapon is a 10 mm. I don't feel I am giving up power to anything short of a 44 mag. I am for all practical purposes equalling a 41mag.

You assume that I'm referring to a mid-size weapon. One can get a .357 Magnum or .327 Federal Magnum in a very small and light package. I regularly pocket carry a Ruger SP101 .357 Magnum and that's far from the smallest or lightest .357 Magnum revolver available. Also, if one doesn't mind a full-sized weapon, a revolver can offer a lot more horsepower than nearly any commonly-available semi-auto which isn't cartoonishly large. With a good OWB holster and belt, my 4" S&W 629 is no more difficult or uncomfortable to carry than a full-sized semi-auto and offers more power than any semi-auto short of a Desert Eagle, Wildey, or the other specimens in 44 AMP's collection :D.

Originally posted by wild cat mccane
I don't know if I agree at all with what you are saying.

Revolvers have a LOT of cons.
-Revolvers carry like an orange.
-While smooth, a revolver has a double action trigger with 100% of the trigger travel via your finger. A P365 is 100% striker sprung.
-An experienced shooter knows the gas from a cylinder is dangerous. Anyone who's cleaned a revolver knows this as the build up on the forcing cone.
-Reliable? ever have a revolver lock up? Build up, binding, yoke, primer backing out...the list of possible problems is greater than an auto.
-Not arguing if more rounds are need, but there is no good solution for more rounds in a revolver.

Sure, revolvers have cons, but they have plusses too. It really depends on what's important to you, your training and experience, and what you're trying to do.

You say revolvers carry "like an orange." I presume you mean that they're thicker and more bulbous and therefore more difficult/uncomfortable to conceal. Well, that really depends on how you're carrying them. I suppose that carrying IWB might be more difficult with a revolver, but I've never been able to stand IWB carry with much of anything. For OWB or pocket carry, I personally find a revolver easier to conceal because they don't have the square, sharp angles which print through clothing and scream "GUN" like a semi auto does. Sure, it's obvious that there's something in your pocket or under your shirt, but it isn't obvious to the casual observer that it's a gun. Also, specifically when carrying in a pocket, the way that a revolver's grip protrudes off the frame makes it easier to obtain a firing grasp than a semi-auto.

As far as the DA trigger, I find that the DA trigger on even a mediocre revolver is usually still smoother than that of most DA semi-autos. Also, I don't personally find the DA trigger to be a hindrance as it forces me to slow down just enough to re-align my sight with the target before pulling the trigger again. With a SA or striker-action semi-auto I have to consciously slow myself down enough to re-align the sights lest my finger outrun my sight picture.

Sure, I'm aware that the cylinder gasses can be dangerous, but it's never presented a problem for me. Of course, I'm not much of a fan of the "thumbs forward" grip that seems to be trendy right now (for a few different reasons that aren't all germane to this particular discussion) so I've never had the issue of wayward digits getting where they shouldn't be. As far as cleaning the forcing cone, it's no more difficult than cleaning the barrel, feed ramp, or breech face of a semi-auto.

Reliability kind of depends on how you define it. The majority of malfunctions that you see in semi-autos of at least mediocre quality are the product of user error, substandard ammunition, and/or substandard magazines. Revolvers are, by their nature, much more tolerant of two of those factors and completely immune to the third. If a cartridge has enough power to push the bullet out of the barrel, a revolver can fire it and a misfire in a revolver needs no tap, rack, bang drill but rather another pull of the trigger to rotate a fresh round into play. A revolver cannot be "limp-wristed" into a malfunction nor can it be pushed out of battery if fired at contact distance. Obviously a bad magazine spring or bent feed lip is a non-issue for a revolver since magazines aren't present in the first place. I'd say it's debatable whether or not the list of possible problems is longer for the revolver or semi-auto, but I certainly think that the list of likely problems is shorter for the revolver.

As I said, it depends on your training, experience, chosen carry method, personal risk assessment, and a variety of other factors as to which is "better" and what's "better" for you may not be "better for me (and in all likelihood, it isn't). Capacity is certainly something that should be considered when selecting a defensive firearm, but it isn't the only thing that should be considered.
 
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But don't make it sound like someone holding a revolver knows something more.

I'm burning cases of 357 and 9mm each month. Both have positives, but there is absolutely nothing wrong that I can get 10 rounds of 9mm in a P365 (that's real 9mm FPS, not 357 short barrel FPS AND in a real HST bullet) in the same size as a j-frame.

That isn't a problem for my knowledge or a problem of the P365. Coming at it from one angle and I don't agree it makes sense that it's a "thing" that a PM9 sized gun has double the capacity of the PM9 or j-frame. Each their own. Hypocrisy means having a pretense. I have none. I think the j-frame has a lot of issues. Ammo selection vs 9mm being the main.
 
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Originally posted by wild cat mccane
But don't make it sound like someone holding a revolver knows something more.

Who said anything about revolver guys knowing something more? The point I'm trying to make is that if you're choosing a revolver, capacity probably isn't at the top of your list of priorities so you're not likely to see a Colt D-Frame's six shots to be that huge an advantage over a S&W J-frame's five.

I'm burning cases of 357 and 9mm each month. Both have positives, but there is absolutely nothing wrong that I can get 10 rounds of 9mm in a P365 (that's real 9mm FPS, not 357 short barrel FPS AND in a real HST bullet) in the same size as a j-frame.

Ok, so you like HST bullets, that's fine. I use HST's in come calibers, but in some calibers I prefer something else. Also, you should know that the availability of HST's won't be a strike against the .357 Magnum much longer.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/first-look-federal-premium-hst-in-357-mag-327-fed-mag/

That isn't a problem for my knowledge or a problem of the P365. Coming at it from one angle and I don't agree it makes sense that it's a "thing" that a PM9 sized gun has double the capacity of the PM9 or j-frame. Each their own. Hypocrisy means having a pretense. I have none. I think the j-frame has a lot of issues. Ammo selection vs 9mm being the main.

Who said anything about a problem with your P365 or your knowledge? The point I've been trying to make is that revolver guys and semi-auto guys often have different priorities, a point that is graphically made by this very discussion. You prefer 9mm because you can get it loaded with HST's while I prefer .357 Magnum, in part, because I'm happy with bullets other than HST's thus you and I have different priorities. That doesn't make my choice right or yours wrong nor vice versa just different.
 
Who said anything about revolver guys knowing something more? The point I'm trying to make is that if you're choosing a revolver, capacity probably isn't at the top of your list of priorities so you're not likely to see a Colt D-Frame's six shots to be that huge an advantage over a S&W J-frame's five.
The sixth shot can provide a great advantage over five.

Nominally, it would appear to be a 20% increase, but it is larger than that in reality because not every shot is an effective hit.
 
Originally posted by wild cat mccane
Perhaps you didn't mean hypocrisy in your title if you didn't think your comments pointed?

Well, since I am not the OP, I had no input into the title. The OP thought it "hippocritical" that he perceived semi-autos with 10 or fewer rounds in the magazine to be often criticized for being "low capacity" while revolvers are not.

I was attempting to explain a possible reasoning for this perceived phenomenon by explaining that people who prefer revolvers often have different priorities from those who prefer semi-autos primarily, as it pertains to the issue at hand, that revolver guys are usually less concerned with the capacity of their handgun than semi-auto guys.

You responded to this by posting a list of your perceived shortcomings of revolvers. I responded to this by trying to explain that what you perceived as a shortcoming might be a non-issue or even benefit to someone else. You then pivoted to a caliber debate between 9mm and .357 and an exposition about Federal HST's.

I'm really not sure what in my posts you find to be "pointed" as I was really trying not to start a revolver vs auto debate or caliber war as they're not germane to the OP's original question. The point I was trying to make to the OP is that the people criticizing his Glock for "only" having ten rounds in the mag and the people extolling the virtues of revolvers probably aren't the same people just like I'm not the one taking issue with your HST-stoked P365 nor calling anyone a hypocrite.
 
It's a weird place to call out capacity when the slide of the P365 is the same size as the PM9/CM9 which was the standard of 9mm pocket. The grip is the same width as the Kahr until the palm swell which makes you think it's for comfort.

Nothing negative happened to anyone when the P365 came out.

What the Hellcat and P365 brought was also not crap DOA triggers of the PF-9/LC9 and PM9 (though it's 100% cocked).

Now I think revolvers have issues, including their DA triggers. But...does the P365 not bring something wrong? is there hypocrisy? no.
 
Choice of individual carry is a matter of carrying what one is comfortable with and feels secure with. Yes, it really is that simple. I doubt anyone here is about to change caliber, capacity or anything else based on the views of another. Not today, tomorrow or anytime soon anyway. Nobody here needs to justify their reasoning to the next person. You do what works for you.

Ron
 
What happens when one's feeling is poorly founded?

Well then one ends up dead. Apparently reading through 140 post on this thread nobody is going to change their views. Nobody's right and everybody's wrong. We are sorry the police regret to inform you your loved one is dead because they were stupid. Concealed carry is a matter of personal choice unless governed by some state law. NJ for example prohibits JHP bullets. So when it comes to carry choose wisely. The very best concealed carry gun is the gun which works best for you. So yes, it really is that simple.

Ron
 
Choice of individual carry is a matter of carrying what one is comfortable with and feels secure with. Yes, it really is that simple. I doubt anyone here is about to change caliber, capacity or anything else based on the views of another. Not today, tomorrow or anytime soon anyway. Nobody here needs to justify their reasoning to the next person. You do what works for you.

Ron
I really have no idea what "feelings" has to do with concealed carry.
 
Never said "feelings" but said "feels" as in feels comfortable with. Do you carry a gun? Do you feel comfortable with what you carry? :)

Ron
 
Each their own. Hypocrisy means having a pretense. I have none. I think the j-frame has a lot of issues. Ammo selection vs 9mm being the main.

You don't have a pretense but you think J-frames have lots of issue... 9mm has better ammo selection than .38 Special and .357 Mag? Or am I misunderstanding and you don't like .38/.357 because too many ammo choices?
 
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