Why the hypocrisy on handgun capacity?

In a recent incident, a man attacking an officer with a piece of wood kept coming and coming, It took 12 hits to stop him.
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These kinds of things DO happen, though they are rare. However, its not wise to just take the report at face value. Reporters get things wrong. Cops get things wrong. And often while correct, the language used to describe what happened fails to accurately report what actually happened, sometimes, intentionally so...

"It took 12 hits to stop him..."

MAYBE...

No doubt the facts are, he was hit 12 times and he was stopped, but without more detailed information, you can draw the wrong conclusion.

Did it take 12 hits to stop him?? OR was he hit 12 times before he stopped??
There IS a difference. One cop shot him 12 times? More than one cop shooting, 12 hits before he fell down??? Were there 9 hits in non vital parts? 11? 3? These, and other details are important to know before drawing any conclusions.

Saw a morgue photo once, of a guy who took 33 torso hits (thirty-three) before going down. He was a large man (300+lbs) there were 3 cops shooting their 9mms and it was over in about 2 seconds or so.

I am reminded of the comedian who said "I don't know how many guys it takes to throw me out of a bar, but they used six!" :D

Point here is, when someone says "it took X hits to stop them" and no other details, you don't know enough to base a judgement on.
 
Did it take 12 hits to stop him?? OR was he hit 12 times before he stopped??
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The latter. He kept attacking, and he dropped after the twelfth hit. One officer fired. Center mass hits.

The video was around last year.
 
thanks for the additional information. These things do matter, to me, at any rate. These things are very rare but do happen.

I remember reading about a case where a bad guy had a cop pinned and took 6rnds of .357 to the chest at contact distance and wasn't stopped by that, a second officer's actions stopped them. Another case I know about a bad guy took 2 (two) 12ga slugs to the chest and ran away. He didn't run FAR, but he did run away, (around the corner of the building, then died).

Guns are not magic. Everything has failed somewhere, sometime.

I don't sneer at whatever you think you need to carry. That's your business, your choice. If you think you need to have 26.5rnds on your person to survive a gunfight, that's what you think.

what I do sneer at are the people who think that if I don't do what they do, the way they do it, I'm wrong and am gonna die, DIE, DIE! because of that.

And, they are out there....

:rolleyes:
 
It is clear that some folks on here will not be comfortable until they are driving to work in an M1 Abrams tank! LOL
 
It's interesting that general idea always seems to come up.

I started carrying not because I was uncomfortable not carrying or because I was afraid but because I already knew how to use a gun with better than average skill and already knew the deadly force self-defense laws of my state. I had spent a decent amount of time, effort and money acquiring both the skill and knowledge. I figured it wouldn't make sense to have that skill and knowledge and then end up in a situation where I needed a gun and didn't have one.

Even now, when I can't legally carry, my comfort level is the same as when I do carry--the odds are against my needing a gun on any particular day and they don't change based on whether I am carrying or not.
 
Even now, when I can't legally carry, my comfort level is the same as when I do carry--the odds are against my needing a gun on any particular day and they don't change based on whether I am carrying or not.
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This is something I've noticed about myself recently. Its about an hour commute to work (Camp Lejeune) and if I am going on base the hassle of carrying intensifies quite a bit, as in line at the gate I have to unholster, unload and put pistol and magazine in separate cases. Coming out the gate, same thing in reverse. Not to mention I'm in civvies on my way in, workout clothes and then uniform, then civvies again on the way out. At least three times a week closer to five I am stopping on the way home to accomplish some sort of errand. To me, it is not always worth it to go the extra step, but I've stopped feeling uncomfortable when I don't.
 
This is something I've noticed about myself recently. Its about an hour commute to work (Camp Lejeune) and if I am going on base the hassle of carrying intensifies quite a bit, as in line at the gate I have to unholster, unload and put pistol and magazine in separate cases.
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Wow, times have changed. Years ago actually 1971 I was stationed at Cherry Point in old enlisted quarters. We had an armory in the quarters and in addition to our M14 rifles we stored our personal weapons. I had a Win 94 and two handguns in that armory. You could check out personal weapons and had to check them back in. Later I returned to Cherry Point as a civilian so living off base nothing was a problem. I did have a sergeant friend who had his guns in base housing. Then too, back then there was no CCW.

Ron
 
Wow, times have changed. Years ago actually 1971 I was stationed at Cherry Point in old enlisted quarters. We had an armory in the quarters and in addition to our M14 rifles we stored our personal weapons. I had a Win 94 and two handguns in that armory. You could check out personal weapons and had to check them back in. Later I returned to Cherry Point as a civilian so living off base nothing was a problem. I did have a sergeant friend who had his guns in base housing. Then too, back then there was no CCW.
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They haven't changed that much. In theory when living in the barracks you can store personal weapons in the armory. What I saw through most of my enlisted barracks time was people storing them in their vehicles which was somewhat less of a violation than in their barracks rooms but at the end of the day no one trusted the armory custodians (read armory custodians NOT armorers) not to fool around with their personal weapons stored in the armory, and they make it a HUGE hassle these days.

If you live on base housing every firearm you own has to be registered with the provost marshal's office. PCS from LeJeune to Pendleton and try to store an AR on base? Nope, even though it is federal land they follow state firearm laws.

There technically is concealed carry on base, but it has to be approved by the base commander. To this day I do not know anyone who has gotten approval. Random searches are not frequent but it is not worth the risk. Carrying concealed through the gate is more trouble than it is worth when I can go condition 4 and put it in a case. Or just not carry.

BTW, even if you are one of the handful of people who get approval for concealed carry on base, you cannot carry in the majority of the buildings on base. Its like being able to carry in a national park, but not in the public restrooms at the park.
 
Thanks for sharing that, my base days ended about 33 years ago. I did work DoD and DoE till I retired almost 9 years ago. Had no clue how bases handled personal owned firearms.

Semper Fi
Ron
 
OldMarksman said:
The latter. He kept attacking, and he dropped after the twelfth hit. One officer fired. Center mass hits.

The video was around last year.
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Here is a link to it:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/video-crazed-man-attacking-deputy-soaks-up-12-rounds-before-hes-stopped/

The take away for people should be:
Dang! Somebody might get shot multiple times and not run away, nor be incapacitated quickly.
I might need more than 5-6 rounds, even for a "quick trip to the store" in a "good area".
Those were hits, so missing would have increased the number of rounds fired.
Only one hard to stop guy, what if there had been a 2nd attacker.

But NOoooo, some people will be thinking:
I'm not a cop that example is inapplicable to me.
I would have done a mosambique
Examples don't matter, that won't happen here. Outlier.
 
Because unfortunately there exists an overwhelming sentiment that nowadays every attack is a well-coordinated, skillfully executed, all-out assault by a four-man fireteam who also just so happens to be taking pain-inhibiting drugs which inexplicably do not compromise their motor functions.

So yeah, you need at least 15 rounds in the magazine plus 2 reloads in order to stand a chance against the Crackerjack Boys: Strike Force Omega. Nevermind the fact that the scenario that you are preparing for is one which you would be at an extreme disadvantage in which you are outnumbered, outgunned, and outmatched, because it's an unrealistic scenario which will almost assuredly never happen to you, and it's really just a flimsy justification to go out armed to the teeth, made by folks who are just too insecure to admit that they're doing so because they want to or because it makes them feel more confident.

It takes some serious guts to admit that you carry what you do because you like it or because you'd feel unconfident with anything less, so most folks would rather attempt to make it seem entirely necessary to do so, and by extension that anyone who does carry anything less is a fool.

Personally, during Wintertime I tend to carry a double-stack 15 shot .40cal pistol with a backup Ruger LCP and a spare magazine for each. Is that entirely necessary? No, but I feel more confident doing so anyway, and it's no hinderance to do so.
 
Because unfortunately there exists an overwhelming sentiment that nowadays every attack is a well-coordinated, skillfully executed, all-out assault by a four-man fireteam who also just so happens to be taking pain-inhibiting drugs which inexplicably do not compromise their motor functions.
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Where on Earth did that come from?

So yeah, you need at least 15 rounds in the magazine plus 2 reloads in order to stand a chance against the Crackerjack Boys: Strike Force Omega.
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Has anyone tried reloading twice while being attacked?

Nevermind the fact that the scenario that you are preparing for is one which you would be at an extreme disadvantage in which you are outnumbered, outgunned, and outmatched, because it's an unrealistic scenario which will almost assuredly never happen to you, ....
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Most people whom I know visualize shooting at stationary attackers, and they cannot imagine that said attackers will not "flee" when shots are fired.

I do not "prepare" for any particular "scenario". I consider a criminal attack unlikely, but I think that should it happen, two or perhaps three attachers may well be involved.

It takes some serious guts to admit that you carry what you do because....
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I don't buy that at all.
 
Because unfortunately there exists an overwhelming sentiment that nowadays every attack is a well-coordinated, skillfully executed, all-out assault by a four-man fireteam who also just so happens to be taking pain-inhibiting drugs which inexplicably do not compromise their motor functions.
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Where on Earth did that come from?
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My guess is it's a sarcastic distillation of the thoughts and attitudes of people (some posting here) with more than a dash of hyperbole thrown in to emphasize the foolishness.

And, other than not using a smiley :rolleyes: to clearly show what its meant to be, I can't say I disagree all that much.

What I took from the post was about some people going to extremes others consider unrealistic, and advising us all that we need to do what they do in order to survive even "a trip to the store"....

I'm (in a way) waiting for the post saying "I need to carry more magazines, I had to use up one of my four just doing suppressive fire getting a parking spot at WalMart yesterday, almost didn't have enough ammo to get back to the car with......"" :rolleyes::rolleyes: :eek:

Seems like a lot of people (or a lot of ones posting different places) are more fixated on being armed to survive an action movie shootout or a first person shooter video game, than reality.
 
It didn't help that for the longest time the gun magazines were insisting that if you carried a pistol you NEEDED to carry a tactical folder, flashlight, spare magazine and/or backup and a few other things.

"How many products can we advertise in this article about daily carry?"
 
Seems like a lot of people (or a lot of ones posting different places) are more fixated on being armed to survive an action movie shootout or a first person shooter video game, than reality.
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It sure does!

I'm not sure how much of that translates into what people actually carry, however.
 
I was merely making fun of some of the ridiculous justifications I have seen for why certain folks insist on carrying high capacity pistols across multiple forums.

Believe it or not, it isn't all that much of an exaggeration either... I've seen posts from people who insist that modern-day street gangsters are all ex-military with advanced combat training who carefully plot out/coordinate how their muggings/robberies in advance, take drugs to inhibit their sense of pain, and absolutely cannot be stopped under any circumstances without at least a couple of spare magazines because they wear body armor and you need to shoot them enough times to overcome the structural integrity of said body armor, then deal enough damage to shut them down completely because the drugs make them completely impervious to pain/shock.

I've also seen at least a couple of guys on another forum who regularly insist that high capacity is necessary because you need to lay down covering fire, and no amount of reasonable arguments against the absurd concept that is use of covering fire in a civilian self-defense shooting will get through to them.
They even cite outlandish news reports of various shootings to back up their assertions that covering fire is necessary, and apparently believe that as long as a policeman advocates covering fire, then it's totally legal for civilian self-defense, regardless of the context. Or otherwise that getting prosecuted for reckless endangerment/property damage doesn't matter because the courts are all corrupt anyway, so regardless of what you do you're going to get fined/sued into oblivion or thrown in prison anyway, therefore you might as well do whatever is necessary to survive. ...Yeah.
 
I was merely making fun of some of the ridiculous justifications I have seen for why certain folks insist on carrying high capacity pistols across multiple forums.
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I see.

I've seen posts from people who insist that modern-day street gangsters are all ex-military with advanced combat training who carefully plot out/coordinate how their muggings/robberies in advance,
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Well, some of them are, and don't forget the training they get in prison for disarming people, etc.

.... cannot be stopped under any circumstances without at least a couple of spare magazines
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I do not understand the allure of carrying multiple magazines. I wonder hoe many people actually do it.

I am under the impression that reloading during a defensive use of arms incident is extremely rare, if it does happen.
 
OldMarksman said:
I see.

Well, some of them are, and don't forget the training they get in prison for disarming people, etc.

I do not understand the allure of carrying multiple magazines. I wonder hoe many people actually do it.

I am under the impression that reloading during a defensive use of arms incident is extremely rare, if it does happen.
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Some people carry an extra mag in case of a malfunction. I carry one for both a reload and in case of a malfunction. But, I carry an LC9s because it’s the most concealable gun I’ve tried and I shoot it very accurately. It’s also very reliable, but not a high capacity gun.
 
Originally Posted by OldMarksman
I see.

Well, some of them are, and don't forget the training they get in prison for disarming people, etc.

I do not understand the allure of carrying multiple magazines. I wonder hoe many people actually do it.

I am under the impression that reloading during a defensive use of arms incident is extremely rare, if it does happen.
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Then again...

Originally Posted by OldMarksman

It may be true, but no one in his right mind would rely on "what is usually takes" to do anything.
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