Why the hypocrisy on handgun capacity?

Originally posted by Old Marksman
The sixth shot can provide a great advantage over five.

Nominally, it would appear to be a 20% increase, but it is larger than that in reality because not every shot is an effective hit.

That is your perception, but it's really beside the point I'm trying to make. Judging from your posts here and elsewhere, it is quite evident that you value capacity highly in your choice of defensive handgun. As such, it's a pretty safe bet that a revolver isn't your first choice in defensive handgun due to their limited capacity. After all, even the highest capacity centerfire revolvers commonly available max out at 8 rounds which is still two less than your recently acquired LCP Max. If capacity is among your top considerations when choosing a defensive handgun, then a revolver makes little sense given what's available today.

That being said, people who choose a revolver in spite of the plethora of much higher capacity semi-automatics on the market usually do not value capacity as highly as you do. I maintain that for someone who has consciously chosen to carry a limited-capacity, slow-reloading gun like a revolver, a six-shot cylinder as opposed to a five-shot one isn't likely to be the determining factor in their choice. The perceived advantage or disadvantage of higher capacity is really a separate, though certainly parallel, discussion from the OP's original question: why are low-capacity semi-autos more widely criticized than revolvers? The answer to that original question is, I believe, that people who prefer semi-autos generally tend to value capacity more highly than people who prefer revolvers, whether or not that preference is correct, wise, or justified is a separate discussion.

Originally posted by Old Marksman
Quote:
Choice of individual carry is a matter of carrying what one is comfortable with and feels secure with. Yes, it really is that simple.

What happens when one's feeling is poorly founded?

It's really impossible to say beforehand because every defensive use of a firearm is a unique event in and of itself with far too many variables to be accurately predictable. You seem to be very concerned with multiple-attacker scenarios and use that as your primary justification for the utility of a high-capacity handgun. I would point out that bad people doing bad things in group nothing new, it's been going on for all of recorded history. As such, people were defending themselves from multiple attackers long before high capacity magazines were existent. Sometimes people did so successfully and sometimes they failed and conversely, people have sometimes defended themselves with a high-capacity handgun against multiple attackers and sometimes they have failed. There are no guarantees in a gunfight, it all depends on a myriad of factors.

Where comfort and feeling of security becomes important is in fostering, as Paul Harrell would say, program compliance. A particular handgun may have every objectively measurable feature that a given person needs in a defensive firearm, but none of it matters if the person won't carry or train with said handgun because they're not comfortable with it and/or don't feel secure with it. I've seen far too many people refuse to train or carry not because they didn't have a high-quality handgun available, but because the one that was did not give them a feeling of comfort or security.
 
I maintain that for someone who has consciously chosen to carry a limited-capacity, slow-reloading gun like a revolver, a six-shot cylinder as opposed to a five-shot one isn't likely to be the determining factor in their choice.
Back in the day, when revolvers were the name of the game for detectives and for LEO backup, Colt ads put a lot of a lot of importance into "that all important sixth shot". I know retired officers who believed it and still do.

JonKSa told us why here:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=494257&highlight=multiple+opponents

I keep a revolver for carry when bone spur flare-ups make racking a slide difficult. My choice is a six shot Kimber.

The perceived advantage or disadvantage of higher capacity is really a separate, though certainly parallel, discussion from the OP's original question: why are low-capacity semi-autos more widely criticized than revolvers?
Frankly. I have never been aware that they were.

It's really impossible to say beforehand because every defensive use of a firearm is a unique event in and of itself with far too many variables to be accurately predictable.
True fact.

You seem to be very concerned with multiple-attacker scenarios and use that as your primary justification for the utility of a high-capacity handgun.
I changed from a j-frame to a Ruger SR-9c because
1--A semiauto was required for a class
2--I could not perform the drills with the j-frame
3--The Ruger was no larger

The performance issues related to trigger pull, sights, capacity, and reloading. Reloading was part of the class, butI do not consider it important for carry.

I think it prudent to expect two assailants--that situation occurs at least as often as an attack by one person. It does not take much thought to conclude why.

If I thought high capacity were of primary importance, I would carry my Ruger American Compact. But the S&W EZ 9 is lighter, thinner, and more easy to rack, and it has a grip safety.
 
To me weapon choice boils down to weighing three factors:
1. Physical comfort of carrying the weapon
2. Ability to conceal the weapon.
3. Ability of the weapon to protect me against reasonably perceived threats.
 
To me weapon choice boils down to weighing three factors:
1. Physical comfort of carrying the weapon
2. Ability to conceal the weapon.
3. Ability of the weapon to protect me against reasonably perceived threats.
Absolutely, and that means compromises.
 
Are you referencing physical or emotional comfort?

Yes, or whatever trips your trigger. I carry and I am comfortable with the gun I carry. That is all there is to it.

Ron
 
Are you referencing physical or emotional comfort?

Yes, or whatever trips your trigger. I carry and I am comfortable with the gun I carry. That is all there is to it.

Ron
Emotional comfort falls into the "feelings" that was denied a few posts earlier. I personally don't care what anyone carries. Fine with me if they carry a Derringer. I do think carry should be based on reasoning and not feelings.
 
I agree as to reasoning but additionally feel an individual should feel comfortable with their choice of carry gun and even their surroundings. Personally I really do not care what someone chooses to carry.

Ron
 
Apparently reading through 140 post on this thread nobody is going to change their views. Nobody's right and everybody's wrong.

I would bet that a majority of the people on this thread would change there mind if we could say there was a 100% chance you are good with X amount of rounds. But that's an impossible stat. The issue is that the current stats are not fool proof and everyone here is preparing for that 'what if' scenario.

For example, I see the same thing in the prepper forums - Gov tells people have 3 days of food and water, preppers start by prepping for a week, then a month, then several months, then 20 years because they might need that much food/water. In reality the 3 days of food and water is going to get people through most of the worst case scenarios.

CCW is no different. We know that most people will never need a gun. We know that just producing a gun stops most encounters. We also know that when fired most encounters stop at 3 rounds. So if you have a gun with at least 3 bullets and are a normal civilian, you have all you need for well over 99% of life encounters. If there was a way to add up the chances of a civilian in the US needing more than 3 rounds, I would bet you have something like a .00001% chance (made up stat but you get the idea). You probably have a better chance of being hit by a meteor.
 
If you walk out of your house without at least 4 high-capacity handguns on your person, and at least 4 reloads for each, you have a death wish and are going to die screaming when the hoard of Hottentots descends on you.

And, because for most of my CCW "career," which started in 1986, I've carried a 5 shot revolver, often without reloads, I've actually been dead for years but am just too damned stubborn to stop posting on gun boards.

Carry what you want.

Practice with what you carry.

Be comfortable with what you carry.

Invest in quality firearms, ammunition, and associated gear such as belts and holsters.

And don't worry so much about what people on the internet say.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have some Hottentots to deal with.
 
Originally posted by Old Marksman
Quote:
I maintain that for someone who has consciously chosen to carry a limited-capacity, slow-reloading gun like a revolver, a six-shot cylinder as opposed to a five-shot one isn't likely to be the determining factor in their choice.

Back in the day, when revolvers were the name of the game for detectives and for LEO backup, Colt ads put a lot of a lot of importance into "that all important sixth shot". I know retired officers who believed it and still do.

Again, that was back in the day. Many of the high-capacity semi-autos we have today weren't available then (certainly not high-capacity micro-compacts), there was a perception among many that semi-autos of the time weren't reliable, and in many cases department regulations required a revolver. Had those same officers found themselves in the circumstances we have today, I think most of those who preferred a Colt for the "all important sixth shot" would probably be packing compact semi-autos. Also, S&W J-Frames were still quite popular so apparently there were a lot of cops back then who didn't think the sixth shot was quite so important.

Originally posted by Old Marksman
Quote:
The perceived advantage or disadvantage of higher capacity is really a separate, though certainly parallel, discussion from the OP's original question: why are low-capacity semi-autos more widely criticized than revolvers?

Frankly. I have never been aware that they were.

I wasn't either, but apparently the OP perceives this to be the case. I can only assume that this must be the case amongst the circles he frequents. I've been trying to explain that I think the reason he perceives this apparent contradiction is because he's actually listening to two distinctly different groups of people that he assumed were one in the same.

Originally posted by Old Marksman
Quote:
You seem to be very concerned with multiple-attacker scenarios and use that as your primary justification for the utility of a high-capacity handgun.

I changed from a j-frame to a Ruger SR-9c because
1--A semiauto was required for a class
2--I could not perform the drills with the j-frame
3--The Ruger was no larger

The performance issues related to trigger pull, sights, capacity, and reloading. Reloading was part of the class, but I do not consider it important for carry.

OK, so you switched to a high-capacity semi-auto because it better allowed you to accomplish the specific goals you needed to (in this case to successfully complete the class you took). After taking the class, it appears that, through your own personal risk assessment, you determined that the scenarios that the class was preparing you for were similar to those you'd most likely face in the real world so it was prudent to modify your firearm to better meet those scenarios. I don't disagree with the rationale of any of that, the only point I'm trying to make is that not everyone will be faced with the same scenarios or even same likelihood of certain scenarios and thus, if everyone performs a prudent personal risk assessment, it seems logical that they might come to different conclusions about the "best" carry gun for them.

Originally posted by Old Marksman
I think it prudent to expect two assailants--that situation occurs at least as often as an attack by one person. It does not take much thought to conclude why.

It takes more thought that you might realize. The probability of not only violent attack, but the specifics of a given attack are dependent upon many, many factors including but not limited to lifestyle choices, geography, socio-economic demographics, current events, and even climate or time of year. While an attack from two or more assailants may be equal or greater than that from a single assailant to the population as a whole, that likelihood is not dispersed evenly or homogenously. For example, I think it fairly obvious to conclude that the likelihood of a multiple assailant attack is significantly greater to someone who resides in a very urban community as opposed to a very rural one with suburban falling somewhere in between. The fact that a two assailant situation may be equal in likelihood to a single assailant does not mean that such probability holds true for everyone. If someone's risk assessment determines that a single assailant is far more likely, then that person may very well have very different needs and requirements in a defensive handgun than you do.

Originally posted by Old Marksman
If I thought high capacity were of primary importance, I would carry my Ruger American Compact. But the S&W EZ 9 is lighter, thinner, and more easy to rack, and it has a grip safety.

So, couldn't one say that you choose your EZ 9 over your American Compact because your more comfortable with it and/or feel more secure with it ;)
 
I think that everyone must make the choice for themselves. You must weigh threat assessment against practicality of weapon carried. I am usually close to my work truck. That is where I keep the real firepower. My CCW just needs to allow me to make a strategic retreat to the truck.
I usually carry a 12 shot M&P 40c. Under gunned for some situations. Overgunned for most.
 
Why dont I see the same criticism when it comes to revolvers? The majority of revolvers that carry adequate self defense rounds are limited to 5-6 rounds. Yet I see nothing but praise for revolvers as concealed carry self defense weapons. Not only do they hold much less rounds, but they’re also more difficult to reload. Especially during a high stress situation.

At the risk of overgeneralizing, people that carry wheel guns possess a higher level of marksmanship than those that carry semi-autos.
I've come to this conclusion by watching thousands of folks shoot at our local range. People with revolvers consistently shoot better scores than pistol shooters.
There are exceptions to this of course but that's what I've observed on average.
If you're proficient at shooting, a 5 shot revolver isn't necessarily a handicap.

In Texas we have a saying about self defense....."you'll need to hire a lawyer for every bullet you fired".
 
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At the risk of overgeneralizing, people that carry wheel guns possess a higher level of marksmanship than those that carry semi-autos.
I've come to this conclusion by watching thousands of folks shoot at our local range. People with revolvers consistently shoot better scores than pistol shooters.
For defensive carry, "better scores" and "marksmanship" provide little advantage. What counts is combat accuracy combined with adequately rapid fire.

There are people who do quite well with revolvers. I am not one of them.[/I]
 
At the risk of overgeneralizing, people that carry wheel guns possess a higher level of marksmanship than those that carry semi-autos.
I've come to this conclusion by watching thousands of folks shoot at our local range. People with revolvers consistently shoot better scores than pistol shooters.
There are exceptions to this of course but that's what I've observed on average.
If you're proficient at shooting, a 5 shot revolver isn't necessarily a handicap.

In Texas we have a saying about self defense....."you'll need to hire a lawyer for every bullet you fired".
With the exception of Jerry Miculec and his 9 shot revolvers, I have never seen better scores shot with wheel guns, unless the rules are set to favor revolvers. Unless reloads at or under 6 rounds are mandatory, No one that I have seen, except on occasion J M., Can overcome the time loss due to reloads.
 
I think that everyone must make the choice for themselves.
That's true, of course. One hopes, as you have already very aptly noted, that they are making the choice "based on reasoning and not feelings."

In my experience, people (in general, not just on this thread, or on this forum, or even just when it comes to guns) are very likely to make choices based on feelings and then backfill (rationalize) with "reasons" afterwards.
Under gunned for some situations. Overgunned for most.
Exactly. For a slightly different twist--I am going to springboard from your comment and say that carrying any firearm is "overgunned for most situations".

I say that because even police officers rarely use their firearms--which means that the vast majority of their time they are overgunned.

I really don't worry much about being overgunned.

Pretty much any time I'm carrying I'm overgunned. One could even argue that just by owning a gun and having it accessible when I'm home, I'm overgunned most of the time.

What none of us wants to be is undergunned. Whether that means not having a gun when one is needed, not having a gun that can be accessed easily enough to be useful, not having a gun that can be shot well enough to be effective, not having enough rounds to deal with a reasonable number of attackers and reasonable miss rates.

As you said earlier, the key is making choices based on reasoning.
 
and reasonable miss rates.

This is one of the concepts which underlies and shapes our viewpoints on what is, and isn't enough "firepower".

Just what is a "reasonable miss rate"???

Obviously the sought after ideal should be zero. And opinions range from this, all the way to "it doesn't matter, as long as the job gets done."

The latter is common today, and stems from lessons learned, (and adopted) from military combat, going back to WWII. Lessons learned by combat veterans from the Pacific (and remember we were in ground combat in the Pacific months before we went to Africa and almost two years before the Normandy invasion of France) taught them the shortcomings of the traditional marksmanship training.

Soldiers were trained to shoot, when they had a target (enemy soldiers) and suppressive fire was the job of squad/platoon/company heavy weapons. Belt fed machine guns and mortars were to pin down the enemy, and individual riflemen shot individual enemy soldiers.

Our veterans paid in blood to learn the lesson that it was better and more effective for riflemen (and everyone else) to shoot NOT just when they had the enemy in sight but to put rounds into anything that might be hiding the enemy as well. Probing fire, suppressive fire, covering fire, proved to be decisive force multipliers IN COMBAT.

Civilian self defense is a DIFFERENT matter. Earlier in this thread "suppressive fire" was brought up, and its usefulness and legal drawbacks examined. That being said, many will hold to the idea that while using suppressive fire may be a poor tactic for civilians, the ability of having enough firepower to provide it, is a good thing.

And this goes back to the observed results that people with revolvers, generally tend to shoot less, and more accurately, round for round than semi auto shooters, and particularly high capacity semi auto shooters.

There is something to be said for knowing you only have 6 (or 5) rounds, and not "wasting" them. It may, or may not be a consciously thought out thing.

There are people, who, knowing they have a large number of rounds available, are more willing to shoot when the odds of a hit are very low. And if you believe in civilian "suppressive fire" you are intentionally shooting without a clear target....generally speaking, the law takes a dim view of that...

I know I'm beating this poor horse yet again, but I think it needs restating, self defense and military combat are NOT the same thing, and are not interchangeable. Yes, there are certain elements in common, risk of death or serious injury, but beyond that, the differences make them separate, not interchangeable and possibly even illegal in specific situations.

Do what a solider does, what your favorite action hero does on the screen, and you could very well wind up in prison, right next to the bad guy(s) you were defending yourself from....

Everyone who goes armed should consider that....
 
This is one of the concepts which underlies and shapes our viewpoints on what is, and isn't enough "firepower".

Just what is a "reasonable miss rate"???

Obviously the sought after ideal should be zero. And opinions range from this, all the way to "it doesn't matter, as long as the job gets done."

The latter is common today, and stems from lessons learned, (and adopted) from military combat, going back to WWII. Lessons learned by combat veterans from the Pacific (and remember we were in ground combat in the Pacific months before we went to Africa and almost two years before the Normandy invasion of France) taught them the shortcomings of the traditional marksmanship training.

Soldiers were trained to shoot, when they had a target (enemy soldiers) and suppressive fire was the job of squad/platoon/company heavy weapons. Belt fed machine guns and mortars were to pin down the enemy, and individual riflemen shot individual enemy soldiers.

Our veterans paid in blood to learn the lesson that it was better and more effective for riflemen (and everyone else) to shoot NOT just when they had the enemy in sight but to put rounds into anything that might be hiding the enemy as well. Probing fire, suppressive fire, covering fire, proved to be decisive force multipliers IN COMBAT.

Civilian self defense is a DIFFERENT matter. Earlier in this thread "suppressive fire" was brought up, and its usefulness and legal drawbacks examined. That being said, many will hold to the idea that while using suppressive fire may be a poor tactic for civilians, the ability of having enough firepower to provide it, is a good thing.

And this goes back to the observed results that people with revolvers, generally tend to shoot less, and more accurately, round for round than semi auto shooters, and particularly high capacity semi auto shooters.

There is something to be said for knowing you only have 6 (or 5) rounds, and not "wasting" them. It may, or may not be a consciously thought out thing.

There are people, who, knowing they have a large number of rounds available, are more willing to shoot when the odds of a hit are very low. And if you believe in civilian "suppressive fire" you are intentionally shooting without a clear target....generally speaking, the law takes a dim view of that...

I know I'm beating this poor horse yet again, but I think it needs restating, self defense and military combat are NOT the same thing, and are not interchangeable. Yes, there are certain elements in common, risk of death or serious injury, but beyond that, the differences make them separate, not interchangeable and possibly even illegal in specific situations.

Do what a solider does, what your favorite action hero does on the screen, and you could very well wind up in prison, right next to the bad guy(s) you were defending yourself from....

Everyone who goes armed should consider that....
Fully agree. I will also add that in stressful situations, some of those accurate revolver shooters not so accurate.
I used to train with an officer from another jurisdiction. He was insanely accurate with a revolver. Literally he would shoot 2" , 50 yard groups, off hand groups with his revolver. He was off duty during an armed robbery at a store. From less than 15 yards, he missed the perp 5 times and grazed his arm with one shot. Guy ran off.
 
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