Why the hypocrisy on handgun capacity?

I will also add that in stressful situations, some of those accurate revolver shooters not so accurate.

It's not just revolver shooters that get less accurate under extreme stress. Nearly everyone does.

One fellow I knew was a master class shooter, went to the state finals nearly every year and was always one of the top shooters.

He was once involved in a shoot out, close range (less than a dozen yards). Both he and the bad guy emptied their guns without any hits. At that point, the bad guy tossed down his pistol and shouted "I give up!".

Point here is that nobody, including well trained officers is immune to not shooting their best when bullets are (or could be) coming at them.
 
Just what is a "reasonable miss rate"???
It's a good question, and fundamental to the topic.
He was insanely accurate with a revolver. Literally he would shoot 2" , 50 yard groups, off hand groups with his revolver. He was off duty during an armed robbery at a store. From less than 15 yards, he missed the perp 5 times and grazed his arm with one shot. Guy ran off.
Yes. THAT is what I mean by "reasonable miss rates."

It is not reasonable to assume that there will be no misses. We can look at real world gunfights to see how many rounds are typically fired for each hit. That gives us something reasonable to use for planning.
It's not just revolver shooters that get less accurate under extreme stress. Nearly everyone does.
Exactly. And yet it seems surprisingly common for people to assume that they will hit with every, or nearly every shot they have at their disposal when their life is on the line. That's not reasonable.
 
We can look at real world gunfights to see how many rounds are typically fired for each hit. That gives us something reasonable to use for planning.

This sounds "reasonable", however, I don't see it as anything useful beyond a really rough guideline.

And the reason for that is simply the real world data is all over the place, poorly reported, and not given to neat, accurate statistical tabulation or analysis.

There seems to me to be a huge host of factors that could skew the results away from accuracy and predictability.

Take for instance the NYC shootout where the cops shot and killed a couple of bystanders and wounded several more, and didn't hit the bad guy at all.
How does that kind of thing get "counted"???

Like the "one shot stop" data, cases where there were more than one shot (or more than one hit) don't fit in narrow parameters, and unless the model takes those into account, its not modelling reality, accurately.

If there is a way to reduce the chaos of the real world down to neat consistent and accurate numbers, you'll have to explain that to me, in small words, because I don't see how it can be done.
 
This sounds "reasonable", however, I don't see it as anything useful beyond a really rough guideline.
Right.

1. That is why I used the term "reasonable" as opposed to trying to quote a percentage.

2. All that we need is "a really rough guideline". This isn't about writing and defending a PhD dissertation, it's about getting a feel for how things work in the real world.

It's not necessary to be able to quote some super-precise percentage, nor would a figure like that be useful except as an average taken across a huge number of shootings. We just need a rough idea of what happens so we can use that rough idea to make reasonable choices based on what we feel we want to prepare for.
And the reason for that is simply the real world data is all over the place, poorly reported, and not given to neat, accurate statistical tabulation or analysis.
Well, yes and no.

1. You can collect statistics on just about anything, and there are calculations (like averages, standard deviations, etc.) that take huge amounts of nasty, real-world data that's all over the place and still provide useful information for people who want to get a rough idea of reality.

2. We don't need super-precise figures--just getting a rough idea is plenty. Focusing on the idea that a precise number isn't available ignores the fact that we just need to get a feel for the situation.

There's tons of information out there. In the time it takes to come up with a handwaving explanation of why there isn't any information or why it's not useful, one could instead learn some useful facts.

Here are a few results from a quick internet search. These are all from the first page of results.

https://daiglelawgroup.com/new-study-on-shooting-accuracy-how-does-your-agency-stack-up/

https://cvpcs.asu.edu/sites/default/files/content/projects/hitting target article_0.pdf

https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites...o-Police-Combat-Handgun-Shooting-Accuracy.pdf

https://www.ajc.com/blog/get-school...yet-want-arm-teachers/mDBlhDtV6Na4wJVpeu58cM/

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/26/us/why-police-shoot-so-many-rounds-trnd/index.html

So what's the answer?

If you want a single number, accurate to several decimal places, then prepare to be disappointed. That's not how it works. As you say, there are a lot of variables.

On the other hand, if you want to get a REASONABLE idea of what kind of miss rates to expect, that's entirely possible.

Finally, and this is really important, there really aren't any surprises in the data for people who are willing to look at the problem from a common-sense perspective.

When people are getting shot at, attacked, are in fear of death, are moving to try to stay alive, are trying to hit an attacker that is maneuvering to get at them and/or avoid injury themselves, they miss. A lot.

To quote one source, researchers have documented that “police departments rarely ever achieve a 50% hit rate".

So what's a reasonable miss rate? It's going to depend on the scenario. But what we can easily see is that it's not reasonable to expect to hit with every shot--it's probably not even reasonable to expect that most of the shots taken in a dynamic self-defense situation will connect.

So let's say I think I'm better than the average cop and I will connect with 50% of my rounds in a self-defense encounter. Let's say I want to prepare for the possibility of being attacked by two persons and I feel that it's reasonable to assume that I might have to shoot both of them to stop the attack. Let's say I think that shooting one of them once and the other one twice might be sufficient to end the attack.

That means I need 3 hits. With my assumed hit rate of about 50%, it wouldn't make sense for me to carry a 5 shot pistol because the odds are I won't be able to make 3 hits out of 5 shots with a 50% hit rate.

Instead of just handwaving/handwringing/guessing, talking about being comfortable or choosing a gun based on preference, I can now look at the situation and try to decide if I want to lower my expectations of the type of scenario I can reasonably expect to deal with or I can change the gun I plan to carry.

I can decide to carry a gun that holds, say, 7 rounds, or I can decide that I'm ok with ignoring the risk of being attacked by two determined criminals and that I'm only going to prepare for one attacker scenarios, or for scenarios where only one attacker is determined enough to pursue the attack when a gunfight starts. Either one of those decisions could be reasonable--we all prepare to only a certain threshold because it's impossible to prepare for everything. That's just reality--where each of us draws that line depends on our own mindset and circumstances.

But what is NOT reasonable, for example, would be for me to think that I'm prepared for a self-defense scenario with 3 determined attackers because I have a 5 shot pistol and there are less than 5 attackers. We're just talking about understanding reality and using that understanding to make reasonable decisions.
 
It's not just revolver shooters that get less accurate under extreme stress. Nearly everyone does.

One fellow I knew was a master class shooter, went to the state finals nearly every year and was always one of the top shooters.

He was once involved in a shoot out, close range (less than a dozen yards). Both he and the bad guy emptied their guns without any hits. At that point, the bad guy tossed down his pistol and shouted "I give up!".

Point here is that nobody, including well trained officers is immune to not shooting their best when bullets are (or could be) coming at them.
I agree that it's not just revolver shooters that get less accurate under stress. From my observations, revolver shooters pride themselves in their accuracy more than Semi-auto shooters do. Due to limited capacity, when they lose their accuracy, they have lost the largest portion of their defense package. 5 or six rounds of inaccuracy vs 12 to 21 rounds of inaccuracy is a drastic difference.
 
5 or six rounds of inaccuracy vs 12 to 21 rounds of inaccuracy is a drastic difference.

Oh, absolutely! 2 to 3 times as many bullets flying around the countryside and each one hitting something (not the intended target) that you are legally responsible for is a drastic difference! No question in my mind about that. :D
 
From my observations, revolver shooters pride themselves in their accuracy more than Semi-auto shooters do.
The training that I have had all required semi-autos.

Students were expected to place every shot in the target area.
 
The training that I have had all required semi-autos.

Students were expected to place every shot in the target area.
The "training" I have had agrees with your training. My observations of shooting with and against revolver shooters, for many years, is that they want nice pretty little groups.
 
My observations of shooting with and against revolver shooters, for many years, is that they want nice pretty little groups.
That probably also applies to anyone who just likes shooting at targets, and much less to those have availed themselves of defensive shooting training.
 
There’s a long standing argument that people with more ammunition will “waste” that ammunition whereas people with less will take their shots more “carefully”. While I see where someone might get that idea, I don’t know how much it is based in reality. One of the first handguns I shot to any extent was a S&W Model 13 and my first handgun was a S&W Model 19. I spent a while shooting revolvers and encountered some very skilled revolver shooters. Of course, they also happened to be older and had been shooting longer than many who were at the same range shooting semiautomatics so it wasn’t exactly a fair comparison. I also met my fair share of people with J frames that were lucky if they hit the target at all. I’ve had similar experiences with people I met that used semiautomatics. I’m not sure being in one group or the other is necessarily an indication of marksmanship, and I’ve had assumptions bite me in the butt enough times that I’m leery of making them.

Besides some interesting comments in this thread regarding “suppressive fire”, most people I meet intend to hit their target and are aware of the importance of doing so. Doing so, however, isn’t always easy. The courses I’ve done that had force on force with UTM firearms showed me that even in what people knew were NOT life and death situations the added stress and adrenaline took people that could make ragged holes into people that missed and were surprised when they did, myself included. Even the added stress of a timer doesn’t come close IMO.

Additional capacity gives you the opportunity to make more shots, though of course the goal is to still hit those shots (the two are not mutually exclusive). This is combined with the fact that some assailants have historically been hit multiple times and kept fighting despite what would over time be lethal wounds (the Miami FBI shootout is one example) and that criminals may not always work alone.


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That probably also applies to anyone who just likes shooting at targets, and much less to those have availed themselves of defensive shooting training.
It carries over to what I have seen in competition as well. Revolvers usually shoot higher target scores but lose the shoot due to time weighted score.
 
Oh, absolutely! 2 to 3 times as many bullets flying around the countryside and each one hitting something (not the intended target) that you are legally responsible for is a drastic difference!
Carrying an unloaded gun completely eliminates any concerns about sending bullets flying around the countryside. :D

Seriously, having more rounds available to potentially help solve more stressing scenarios doesn't mean that one is constrained to expend all of them at every opportunity, nor does it mean that one should be more careless in how they are aimed.
Additional capacity gives you the opportunity to make more shots, though of course the goal is to still hit those shots (the two are not mutually exclusive).
Yup.
 
The nice people of antifa and blm make the possibility of potentially having to deal with not only individual criminals but perhaps a group of criminals working together. Granted no one should be anywhere near where these folks operate but you never know...
 
If there was a way to add up the chances of a civilian in the US needing more than 3 rounds, I would bet you have something like a .00001% chance (made up stat but you get the idea). You probably have a better chance of being hit by a meteor.

I understand a little hyperbole to make a point, but the meteor part here is overdone. And this is coming from someone who has carried a 5 shot wheelgun for a number of years (still do) and lived to tell the tale.


Lots and lots of people get shot in the US every year. I think I heard about one person in all the world technically getting hit by a pebble-sized meteor this one time.
 
Statistically, for a citizen involved self-defense shooting - the odds of encountering/drawing/and then firing more than Six(6) rounds to stop the threat...

... are about 1/6,000.

... or, only about 66% greater than the odds of ending up a Highway Fatality that same year. (1/10,000)

6+1 G36 45 ACP (w/ an extra mag):

IMG-20211101-072004564-crop-50.jpg




Red
 
Statistically, for a citizen involved self-defense shooting - the odds of encountering/drawing/and then firing more than Six(6) rounds to stop the threat...

... are about 1/6,000.

... or, only about 66% greater than the odds of ending up a Highway Fatality that same year. (1/10,000)

6+1 G36 45 ACP (w/ an extra mag):

IMG-20211101-072004564-crop-50.jpg




Red


Would you mind sharing from where you got those statistics?


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Statistically, for a citizen involved self-defense shooting - the odds of encountering/drawing/and then firing more than Six(6) rounds to stop the threat...

... are about 1/6,000.

... or, only about 66% greater than the odds of ending up a Highway Fatality that same year. (1/10,000)

I'm not clear what you are trying to say here....

Are you saying that more people (2/3 more?) draw and fire 6 rounds than are killed in highway accidents every year??

If that's acually true, why isn't that news?? :rolleyes:
 
Why dont I see the same criticism when it comes to revolvers? The majority of revolvers that carry adequate self defense rounds are limited to 5-6 rounds. Yet I see nothing but praise for revolvers as concealed carry self defense weapons.

The problem I have here is the criticism does extend to revolvers. It comes up frequently in these forums.
 
The problem I have here is the criticism does extend to revolvers. It comes up frequently in these forums.
To each his own I guess. For defense against humans, not bears, I see revolvers squarely taking their rightful place on the mountain of antiquity.
Weight for weight, size for size it's 5 or 6 vs 15 to 19 shots. Reliability may slightly favor the wheel guns, but the modern auto loader is so reliable that "issue" is a non issue.
Does any special forces group in the world use revolvers in combat? Any SWAT teams? Seems like a closed case to me. I have plenty of revolvers. I even carry them on occasion. I do not kid myself and think I have same firepower as when I have Glock 19 or 23.
 
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