Who carries a "Mouse Gun" for CCW?

I absolutely agree with the above (Rogerzvz), and feel it's a great error to conflate civilian roles with law enforcement in the selection of equipment and tactics. However, I do not think the different role of civilians calls for lesser equipment. Instead, it allows for a greater variety of choice based on personal preferences rather than institutional standardization and conformity.

I'm also convinced that civilians, who in the United States are regarded as the highest order of person or rank, will be seriously offended at any implication that they should not have equivalent or better capability than their public servants. While I agree with the principle, I do not make it point simply to arm myself equal or superior to officers. Instead, I think it's more important to arm each as best as practical for their respective roles.

Some differences to consider:

The civilian is unlikely to have a partner.
The civilian does not have dispatch standing by on their radio.
The civilian is not likely to have a baton or taser or sticky foam and is less likely to have a large can of OC spray.
The civilian can't call for a K9 unit if they don't have a dog.
The civilian probably has no air assets.
The civilian probably has no vest or plate carrier on.
The civilian cannot lawfully demand people to comply with their commands or force compliance.

Given all those disadvantages, the civilian is not well-advised to be poorly equipped with respect to their side arm.

Another thing to consider is that a civilian is likely to be given less deference with respect to the results of their use of force. We have countless examples of people acting with force for law enforcement purposes whose actions resulted in very undesirable outcomes and yet they were protected from personal or criminal liability, from prosecution, and from conviction. The bottom line is a law enforcement officer acting in the line of duty has protections that a civilian does not. I'll admit they're also held accountable and to a degree of scrutiny in some ways a civilian is not. What we know for sure is the civilian is almost always on their own following a lethal force incident. There is no "system" to shield them from individual responsibility. It would be ill-advised for the civilian to use equipment that improperly places an excess number of bullets or which makes it difficult to place shots under circumstances which demand the highest level of accountability. Even if we don't agree about whether an officer or civilian is held to a greater level of accountability, we can be sure that it is not widely accepted for officers to shoot mouse guns in the line of duty, and part of the reason for that is the liability for the poor performance that can be expected. I don't see how a civilian is in any way exempt from those concerns.
 
Mouseguns are fine... especially when you may be accosted by a very large mouse!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by driz View Post
LCP for me. Fits right in my pocket holster and all. I like the heavier long trigger for its intended purpose. If you know what you’re doing 7 are all you’re ever going to need. Especially when you consider you’re never going to need it at all unless you are careless or go looking for trouble

Jerrys writes this:
that's an incredibly ignorant thing to say.

Not in the least when you realize the first line of civilian self defense is situational awareness, and avoidance!
Then with that logic why carry? Obviously you don't need to if your so confident you can avoid every situation.

I have to agree with Jerrys. Seriously though, it is comical some of the things that are being posted.
 
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My last choice for CC is a S&W Bodyguard 380...and it's relegated to a pocket when I absolutely cannot carry a holster of any type...it beats a stick but it's a close in weapon only. Rod
 
I absolutely agree with the above (Rogerzvz), and feel it's a great error to conflate civilian roles with law enforcement in the selection of equipment and tactics. However, I do not think the different role of civilians calls for lesser equipment. Instead, it allows for a greater variety of choice based on personal preferences rather than institutional standardization and conformity.

I'm also convinced that civilians, who in the United States are regarded as the highest order of person or rank, will be seriously offended at any implication that they should not have equivalent or better capability than their public servants. While I agree with the principle, I do not make it point simply to arm myself equal or superior to officers. Instead, I think it's more important to arm each as best as practical for their respective roles.

Some differences to consider:

The civilian is unlikely to have a partner.
The civilian does not have dispatch standing by on their radio.
The civilian is not likely to have a baton or taser or sticky foam and is less likely to have a large can of OC spray.
The civilian can't call for a K9 unit if they don't have a dog.
The civilian probably has no air assets.
The civilian probably has no vest or plate carrier on.
The civilian cannot lawfully demand people to comply with their commands or force compliance.

Given all those disadvantages, the civilian is not well-advised to be poorly equipped with respect to their side arm.

Another thing to consider is that a civilian is likely to be given less deference with respect to the results of their use of force. We have countless examples of people acting with force for law enforcement purposes whose actions resulted in very undesirable outcomes and yet they were protected from personal or criminal liability, from prosecution, and from conviction. The bottom line is a law enforcement officer acting in the line of duty has protections that a civilian does not. I'll admit they're also held accountable and to a degree of scrutiny in some ways a civilian is not. What we know for sure is the civilian is almost always on their own following a lethal force incident. There is no "system" to shield them from individual responsibility. It would be ill-advised for the civilian to use equipment that improperly places an excess number of bullets or which makes it difficult to place shots under circumstances which demand the highest level of accountability. Even if we don't agree about whether an officer or civilian is held to a greater level of accountability, we can be sure that it is not widely accepted for officers to shoot mouse guns in the line of duty, and part of the reason for that is the liability for the poor performance that can be expected. I don't see how a civilian is in any way exempt from those concerns.
I agree with disadvantages you list for civilians.

With the exception of my friends in LE, I never come into contact with LE. I don't make decisions based on anything LE related. If I get into some altercation, I have to win... especially living way back in the deep woods. One thing I know for certain, is that all hell can break lose at any given moment. And you are right... it is not well advised to be poorly equipped.
 
Then with that logic why carry? Obviously you don't need to if your so confident you can avoid every situation.
Pulling a carry gun is for when you are out of options, avoidance and retreat if possible are the plan before that. People can go on for 50 pages about minimum caliber for CCW. I can shoot my mouse guns accurately multiple shots, 7 rounds of 380 or even 12 rounds of 32ACP on target will take the fight out of most. I'm not shooting through walls or body armor. I have large calibers and do carry those, but I feel fine carry a "small" gun. These threads pop up over and over and there's two camps, one is shoot what you can shoot well, and the other if it doesn't carry over 10 in the mag or start with a 4 in the caliber have 4 mags in you belt you might as well use spit balls. Much like everything in life gather info, make the best choice for your self.
 
I pocket carry 90% of the time. I usually carry an RM380 but often throw my P32 in my pocket when I walk the dogs or go to the gym. I don't go out much at night but when I do I carry a Sig P365 on my hip. I also carry the Sig to church as I am part of the security team.
 
Then with that logic why carry? Obviously you don't need to if your so confident you can avoid every situation.
Because stuff happens even when we take all precautions.
But saying that you will never use your ccw unless you are careless or looking for trouble is "an incredibly ignorant thing to say." sounds like something right out of the Mall Ninja handbook! "I carry a big gun, anf lots of ammo so I can save the wotld, and everybody in it"
The first objective of carrying a gun forself defense is to never have to use it. The second, being fully capable of doing so if everything else fails.
 
Pulling a carry gun is for when you are out of options, avoidance and retreat if possible are the plan before that. People can go on for 50 pages about minimum caliber for CCW. I can shoot my mouse guns accurately multiple shots, 7 rounds of 380 or even 12 rounds of 32ACP on target will take the fight out of most. I'm not shooting through walls or body armor. I have large calibers and do carry those, but I feel fine carry a "small" gun. These threads pop up over and over and there's two camps, one is shoot what you can shoot well, and the other if it doesn't carry over 10 in the mag or start with a 4 in the caliber have 4 mags in you belt you might as well use spit balls. Much like everything in life gather info, make the best choice for your self.
I carry an LCP when I go running and 9s when I'm not in the woods. I don't care what camp people are in or what caliber anyone carries. There is no way I'm ever going to tell anyone that an LCP is all you need.

So you think this makes sense? The last couple sentences...

" LCP for me. Fits right in my pocket holster and all. I like the heavier long trigger for its intended purpose. If you know what you’re doing 7 are all you’re ever going to need. Especially when you consider you’re never going to need it at all unless you are careless or go looking for trouble"

Yeah, that makes perfect sense right? I can't believe only one other person called this nonsense out and I'm amazed that anyone actually agreed with it. That statement might be true if you live in Beverly Hills... or a nursing home.
 
Because stuff happens even when we take all precautions.
But saying that you will never use your ccw unless you are careless or looking for trouble is "an incredibly ignorant thing to say." sounds like something right out of the Mall Ninja handbook! "I carry a big gun, anf lots of ammo so I can save the wotld, and everybody in it"
The first objective of carrying a gun forself defense is to never have to use it. The second, being fully capable of doing so if everything else fails.
Third, understanding that there will be consequences for using a gun regardless of the outcome.
 
I'm confused sir
I do not think the different role of civilians calls for lesser equipment
who in the United States are regarded as the highest order of person or rank, will be seriously offended at any implication that they should not have equivalent or better capability than their public servants

But then you say
It would be ill-advised for the civilian to use equipment that improperly places an excess number of bullets or which makes it difficult to place shots under circumstances which demand the highest level of accountability

So, lacking legal protection and accountability, a civilian should be concerned about stopping the bad guy so as to retreat as easily as possible. Completely opposite to any LEO in the same situation. Who's job is to stop, then apprehend, if possible. Not ever retreat..
Not sure how that aligns with being armed as well as or better than your 'public servants'..
 
I'm confused sir



But then you say


So, lacking legal protection and accountability, a civilian should be concerned about stopping the bad guy so as to retreat as easily as possible.
I made the point that the civilian lacks some of the legal authority and legal protections than officers acting in the line of duty possess. While both officers and civilians are held accountable, the officer's accountability and liability are to some degree shared with their agency. I never asserted that civilians lack accountability. I also never introduce the concept of "bad guy" in my assertions. I don't believe in boogey men. Instead, I made firm the distinction between law enforcement and civilian roles, and claimed that these different roles do not justify equipping either type of person with equipment that is less effective or less suited to their needs.


Completely opposite to any LEO in the same situation. Who's job is to stop, then apprehend, if possible. Not ever retreat..
Not sure how that aligns with being armed as well as or better than your 'public servants'..

I affirm the same distinction in the roles of law enforcement and civilians that you describe, but would point out that law enforcement does have an option to retreat and they often do (but only to begin the pursuit again later). Also, while civilians can choose to retreat, it is sometimes not possible, and they are often not legally obligated to. Certainly, they are not obligated to retreat from their own homes.
 
Because stuff happens even when we take all precautions.
But saying that you will never use your ccw unless you are careless or looking for trouble is "an incredibly ignorant thing to say." sounds like something right out of the Mall Ninja handbook! "I carry a big gun, anf lots of ammo so I can save the wotld, and everybody in it"
The first objective of carrying a gun forself defense is to never have to use it. The second, being fully capable of doing so if everything else fails.
Your first line, "Because stuff happens even when we take all precautions." is irrelevant because apparently all you have to do is not be careless and not look for trouble. And then you take a swipe at someone with your Mall Ninja Handbook BS.

So you agree 7 rounds of .380 is all anyone will ever need too as long as you aren't careless and not looking for trouble? If so, that is amazing.

Here is a shocker, I may not have a hard copy of the mall ninja handbook, but I believe 1 round of .380 might be enough, but I am not going to rely on not being careless and not looking for trouble as guidelines to keep me safe. I actually believe trouble can find you. I was under the impression that if you're being careless and looking for trouble, that those are not good qualities to have when carrying concealed in the first place.

If anyone else wants to chime in on this, please read post 55 and 56 to understand why I am having such a hard time agreeing with post 55.
 
Does a Springfield XDE 45 count as a mouse gun? I had a Ruger LC9S as my carry pistol but since I’ve become so accustomed to hammer-fired pistols, the little Ruger wasn’t gonna do it for me anymore so out with the old, and in with the new...


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Does a Springfield XDE 45 count as a mouse gun?
Don't think even close. "Mouse gun" is more in the line of the Kel-Tec P32, P3at, Ruger LCP, Taurus Spectrum. Mostly 380 acp or 32 acp that will disappear in most any pocket.
Even Glock's entry, the G42 is too big to be a true "mouse gun".
Maybe wee need another term. Like "Hamster" gun. Same Idea as a mouse, but a bit bigger.:D
 
Don't think even close. "Mouse gun" is more in the line of the Kel-Tec P32, P3at, Ruger LCP, Taurus Spectrum. Mostly 380 acp or 32 acp that will disappear in most any pocket.

Even Glock's entry, the G42 is too big to be a true "mouse gun".

Maybe wee need another term. Like "Hamster" gun. Same Idea as a mouse, but a bit bigger.:D



I think you may be right but I was part of another forum who kinda head a little bit of it’s head up it’s own ass where a few members felt as though if the gun fits in a pocket or doesn’t necessarily fit one’s hand then it’s a mouse gun.

But yeah, I figured the only real qualifying mouse gun I had was my NAA 22 magnum revolver, or maybe my Ruger LC9S....


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