What I Don't Like About Glock...

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When I occasionally carry my G43, I use a simple INW holster. I now have a thin waste,30", & I'm 38" up top. It's generaly pretty warm here in Fl. so I'm not able to use a sholder holster. I really don't understand why people hate Glocks. If it's about the lack of a manual safety, For me, it's just one more extra step that in a emergency I can't afford that wasted effort. Same thought about not having one in the chamber. Those 2 extra steps might be the difference between life & death.
I'm no purist, just an average person living in a dangerous World that's not as safe as it was in the 50's-70's. So you either adjust or not.
 
Stephen246 has brought up an excellent point, pertaining to striker fired weapons and their light triggers / no safety's. TONS of documented LEO and civilian involved accidents with these types of weapons. I have observed a few firsthand on the range, which resulted in major pucker factor. Here are just two, both involving Police Chiefs. Not good.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/4704673
https://www.google.com/amp/s/bangor...entally-shoots-self-with-new-duty-weapon/?amp

In my opinion, most people, including LEO's, are much better off carrying either a double action semiutomatic, a 1911A1 format single action, or a double action revolver.
 
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Tactical Jackalope wrote
"I have my Glock 19 appendix". :eek:
I hope you don't have any accidental discharges, or you may have to change your name to "Tactical Enoch:! LOL!!! :D
 
Stephen246 has brought up an excellent point, pertaining to striker fired weapons and their light triggers / no safety's. TONS of documented LEO and civilian involved accidents with these types of weapons. I have observed a few firsthand on the range, which resulted in major pucker factor. Here are just two, both involving Police Chiefs. Not good.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/4704673
https://www.google.com/amp/s/bangor...entally-shoots-self-with-new-duty-weapon/?amp

In my opinion, most people, including LEO's, are much better off carrying either a double action semiutomatic, a 1911A1 format single action, or a double action revolver.
Oh please..striker fired weapons have safety's and I can show you the video of the knucklehead shooting himself in the leg with a 1911.
"I need to pay more attention," Counceller said. "I know what the dangers are. It was pure carelessness on my part."
The city’s new police chief was cleaning his newly issued weapon Monday afternoon and apparently shot himself in the hand, according to a press release issued by a city official Tuesday.

Chief Mark Hathaway, a 25-year veteran officer who was selected as the city’s chief in April, and other officers had just returned from training with their new guns in Brewer when the shooting took place.

“At approximately 5:15 p.m., while officers were cleaning their new guns at the Bangor police station, Chief Mark Hathaway sustained a non-life threatening injury to his left hand in what appears to be an accidental discharge of his duty weapon,” City Manager Cathy Conlow said in the statement.

The mentioned ones happen to be strikers and both are people who are careless. Do ya clean your gun and DON'T check that it isn't loaded?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za2ezCNvBeU

If ya like the safety/decocker type gig, groovy but thousands upon thousands of hours have been put in carrying and shooting striker fired weapons w/o 'accidental discharge'..I can find you TONS of instances of the same thing with hammer fired one's with safetys also.
 
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:rolleyes:
Ok, below is one more article displaying highly trained individuals accidentally firing striker fired weapons, in this case SW M&P's...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.la...eriff-guns-20150614-story.html?outputType=amp

In the article, it mentions another reason striker fired weapons (not to mention the 9mm caliber), are so popular with LEO agency's Administrators... "equal opportunity".

"The M&P appears to have fulfilled its promise on one front: More women are making it into the department. The percentage of female recruits who failed the firearms test has plunged from 6.4% to less than 1%."

Yeah... ok. :rolleyes:
 
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When I occasionally carry my G43, I use a simple INW holster. I now have a thin waste,30", & I'm 38" up top. It's generaly pretty warm here in Fl. so I'm not able to use a sholder holster. I really don't understand why people hate Glocks. If it's about the lack of a manual safety, For me, it's just one more extra step that in a emergency I can't afford that wasted effort. Same thought about not having one in the chamber. Those 2 extra steps might be the difference between life & death.
I'm no purist, just an average person living in a dangerous World that's not as safe as it was in the 50's-70's. So you either adjust or not.
Agree..the internal safetys are fine with me and gee..I am careful around anything that can put a hole in me or others..called 'training'...
 
:rolleyes:
Ok, below is one more article displaying highly trained individuals accidentally firing striker fired weapons, in this case SW M&P's...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.la...eriff-guns-20150614-story.html?outputType=amp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3kJ6SU3ycs

We could do this all day if you wish..but like I said, personal choice, thousands have used and carried thousands of strikers w/o issue or problem but to imply is an inherently unsafe design just isn't true..
A second subsidiary is formed in Hong Kong to coordinate sales and ... results in exports to more than 45 countries worldwide (special forces, police, ... GLOCK reaches a significant milestone by selling a total of 5 million pistols worldwide. ... .

And that's just Glock..lots of 'Glock' designed pistols and many 'hammer with safety' manufacturers now make..horrors..striker fired pistols.
It is a great time to buy a gun! Specifically, a striker-fired pistol. Manufacturers have seemingly finally figured out that the design GLOCK made famous is here to stay, and all of the big players now have their own take on the striker-fired plastic fantastic.
FN, H&K, Ruger, Sig, S&W, Springfield, Steyr, Walther..to name just 8.
 
USNret93 wrote "thousands have used and carried thousands of strikers w/o issue or problem but to imply is an inherently unsafe design just isn't true.."

That is one way to look at it. Others have a different opinion. Remember, at one point in time in our society, cigarette smoking was thought to be safe and good for asthma, asbestos was widely used in schools and homes in construction and more recently, Oxycontin / Oxycodone was thought to be a new wonder drug and prescriptions were passed out like candy.
Over time, perceptions changed. ;)

Carry what you will, but be careful!
 
USNret93 wrote "thousands have used and carried thousands of strikers w/o issue or problem but to imply is an inherently unsafe design just isn't true.."



That is one way to look at it. Others have a different opinion. Remember, at one point in time in our society, cigarette smoking was thought to be safe and good for asthma, asbestos was widely used in schools and homes and more recently, Oxycontin / Oxycodone was thought to be a new wonder drug and prescriptions were passed out like candy.

Over time, perceptions changed.

Carry what you will, but be careful!
Holy hyperbole Batman!

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 
USNret93 wrote "thousands have used and carried thousands of strikers w/o issue or problem but to imply is an inherently unsafe design just isn't true.."

That is one way to look at it. Others have a different opinion. Remember, at one point in time in our society, cigarette smoking was thought to be safe and good for asthma, asbestos was widely used in schools and homes and more recently, Oxycontin / Oxycodone was thought to be a new wonder drug and prescriptions were passed out like candy.
Over time, perceptions changed.
Carry what you will, but be careful!

Use anything you are comfy with but an inherently unsafe design, it is not.

'Maybe' you could pick other examples tho..and right now, there is a YUGE pushback from many who use this drug, cannot exist without it, and are not Rx drug abusers.

BTW-FAR more handguns are being designed and manufactured as strikers today than last year or the year before..striker designs are MUCH more common, are as safe as ever, where the 1911 'design', SA/DA/decocker/safety, is waning..yes, perceptions DO change..
Carry what you will, but be careful!

Reality, what a concept...:)
 
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"Reality" is a matter of personal perception. Enjoy your coffee. :D
I guess I'll beat this horse again. The reality of it is millions of people carry/use/shoot striker fired weapons and the instance of AD is no higher with striker than with any other design. There's a reason why the below focuses on carelessness, training, etc, and not 'design'..because design isn't a factor.

You mention cigarettes, asbestos and Oxycontin...and imply, as 'perceptions change', like these dangerous things, people will come to their senses and the hammer fired/external safety will magically be the dominant design..

Well, hasn't happened, strikers have been around for a 'while'.
The first commercial success in this type of pistol was the Glock 17. But the Glock wasn’t the first striker-fired pistol, or even the first polymer and striker-fired pistol. H&K produced a pistol that was polymer framed and striker fired in 1970.
Whether you like striker-fired guns or not, the system is here to stay, and as an enduring fan of the 1911, I’ve come to realize that striker-fired guns are much more suitable than other systems for military, law enforcement and civilians for almost every application.

Just a bunch of dumb smokers who build houses with asbestos while being laced on Oxy?

Use what you like but as I mentioned, with 3 internal safetys, striker fired guns are here to stay and their popularity is growing while the popularity of CCW(increasing), using something with an external safety, is shrinking..in favor of strikers..
Like so many foods and nutrients, too much coffee can cause problems, especially in the digestive tract.

OMG, OMG...:eek:
 
In my opinion, most people, including LEO's, are much better off carrying either a double action semiutomatic, a 1911A1 format single action, or a double action revolver.

I agree completely.
 
USNret93; Since you kicked the dead horse (he still didn't budge), I'll try to roust him. :D
You mention 3 "internal" safety's in striker fired Glocks. Great sales pitch. :rolleyes: What about external????? Bottom line is, if the light (single action mode, that's essentially what it is), trigger is pulled, intentionally or not and a round is in the chamber, the gun WILL fire. There is no other safety, aside from that trigger / joke they consider a "safety". I don't consider this "safe" for your average individual or pro. But to each their own. Some are comfortable and carry them with confidence. Not me.
Unlike many of the popular striker fired pistols, the 1911 has an external thumb safety, requiring a separate movement to fire the gun, and NOT relying on ONLY the trigger finger discipline during a stressful situation. When cocked and locked, (condition #1), in a holster, the 1911 is in a FAR safer condition than a striker fired weapon like the Glock or M&P in a holster. The 1911 pistol sports a external hammer, alerting an LEO or CCW permit holders of the pistol’s condition. This provides an increased layer of safety when reholstering as the shooter can manually use the thumb to hold back the hammer. Not so with a Glock. God forbid a piece of clothing gets caught in the striker fired pistols trigger guard as one reholsters, pulling that trigger!
The 1911 has several safeties, internal and external (thumb, grip and disconnecter), and requires intentional action to discharge, unlike most striker fired pistols, which are easier to accidentally fire as numerous agencies have documented.
The striker fired weapons are good pertaining to accuracy, durability and adaptability for troops with various hand sizes., I'll admit that. My duty issue S&W M&P is super accurate. I shoot it well. Grip feels good, but the trigger is no where near as smooth as on my S&W revolvers or 1911A1. I carry what I'm issued on duty, but it wouldn't be my first choice. And off duty, no striker fired plastic gun for me... I carry revolvers, a Sig 220, Beretta M9, or one of my 1911's.
My point is, that without extensive training (and sometimes even with, given the high number of accidental discharges LEO's have had), striker fired weapons are more dangerous than 1911's, double action pistols and revolvers. Just my opinion. I have seen them negligently discharged. Not fun to be around. :eek: Most important safety is between our ears, but that being said... accidents happen. Be safe!
 
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Bottom line is, if the light (single action mode) trigger is pulled...
If you have to sneak a lot of premises into your statements to make them sound reasonable, then that is a clue to you, and others, that your statements have trouble standing on their own.

The Glock trigger is not "single action mode". It may appear to act like a single action trigger externally, but approximately half of the striker spring compression by distance and approximately 75% of the striker spring compression by energy is performed by the trigger. You can verify this with your own measurements if you're skeptical.

The Glock trigger is not especially light. Measured conventionally, an unmodified Glock trigger runs about 6.5lbs, advertising claims and internet hyperbole aside.
When cocked and locked, (condition #1), in a holster, the 1911 is in a FAR safer condition than a striker fired weapon like the Glock or M&P in a holster.
This is a difficult premise to support given that neither of the guns can possibly discharge in this condition without parts breakages.
This provides an increased layer of safety when reholstering as the shooter can manually use the thumb to hold back the hammer. Not so with a Glock. God forbid a piece of clothing gets caught in the striker fired pistols trigger guard as one reholsters, pulling that trigger!
It is true, IMO, that holstering a conventional striker-fired gun without a manual safety requires more care than holstering a gun with a manual safety and a hammer. I've commented before that holstering is probably one of the most hazardous things we do as firearm owners.
The 1911 has several safeties (thumb, grip and disconnecter), and requires intentional action to discharge, unlike most striker fired pistols.
All guns that are drop-safe require some sort of intentional action to discharge unless something breaks.

As far as the additional safeties making a gun safer, that is only true if the safeties are all used properly. This is one of the contradictions of this argument.

Argument. A gun with a more complicated manual of arms involving manual safeties is safer than a gun with a simple manual of arms involving no manual safeties.

Problem: If a person can't figure out how to do something as simple as keep their finger off the trigger, why does it make sense to assume that they can learn something more complicated such as engaging/disengaging a manual safety properly AND still learn to keep their finger off the trigger?
My point is, that without extensive training (and sometimes even with, given the high number of accidental discharges LEO's have had), striker fired weapons are more dangerous than 1911's, double action pistols and revolvers.
If you have the evidence, that when corrected for the number of pistols in use, striker fired weapons are accidentally discharged at a higher rate, please post it. I'm not talking about anecdotes, or listing a number of incidents you found on the web;

Real evidence would be much more useful than handwaving around the issue and making the same unsupported assertions repeatedly as if the repetition will give them validity even in the absence of real evidence.
I have seen them negligently discharged.
Anecdotes are not evidence of anything other than possibility. An anecdote proves that something CAN happen, it doesn't prove that it's a likely outcome or that it's more likely than another possible outcome.

For example, I've only seen two NDs in person. One was with a double action revolver, the other was with a hammer-fired DA/SA pistol with a manual safety. That doesn't prove that double action pistols and hammer-fired DA/SA pistols with manual safeties are more dangerous than other kinds of guns, it's far too small of a sample size. Even if it were a MUCH larger sample size, it would still need to be corrected for the number of types of guns I've seen in situations that could possibly lead to unintentional discharges. All it proves is that it's possible to unintentionally fire those two kinds of guns under certain circumstances.

In other words, if I collect data from a population of 100 guns where 90 are striker-fired and only 10 fall into other categories, then if I end up with 5unintentional discharges with striker fired guns and one from the other category, the temptation is to believe that the striker-fired guns are 5X more dangerous.

In reality, that outcome would actually make the striker fired guns almost 2 times SAFER. That's because the rate of unintentional discharges for the striker fired guns is 5/90 (5.6%) while the rate of unintentional discharges for the other types is 1/10 (10%). You have to correct for the number of guns in use to have any chance of being able to accurately interpret the data.

This is a problem when trying to collect "informal" data using anecdotes and looking for incidents without doing a very thorough data collection effort. Inevitably, the most popular types of guns are going to be over-represented in the data, regardless of what kind of data is being collected.

What it comes down to is if you handle striker-fired guns properly, they are safe. If you handle hammer-fired guns with manual safeties properly, they are safe. Handle either kind improperly and YOU are unsafe.

Anyway, while we like to go on and on about how design aspects are really a big factor in unintentional discharges, the bottom line is that the majority of unintentional discharges are the result, not of the peculiar design characteristics of the firearm in question, but of the user intentionally pulling the trigger (e.g. dry-firing). There are no safeties (manual or passive) that can protect against that.
 
[/"U]If you have to sneak a lot of premises into your statements to make them sound reasonable, then that is a clue to you, and others, that your statements have trouble standing on their own."

The Glock I used to own was 5 pounds (trigger pull). And externally, it did act as a "single action". Once again... Semantics...:rolleyes: Nitpicking over Semantics to make oneself sound sanctimonious often has the opposite effect.


"Real evidence would be much more useful than handwaving around the issue and making the same unsupported assertions repeatedly as if the repetition will give them validity even in the absence of real evidence."

Pretty sure I was clear I was just making my opinion known, based upon personal experience and preferences, not writing an op end piece for The BBC or CNN, hence no statistics. I posted a couple of links to articles depicting accidental discharges with striker fired weapons, involving LEO's who had been trained in their safe handling and use.
The title of this thread is "What I don't like about Glock". I assumed, apparently incorrectly, was that it was open to personal opinions, and comments were not subject to statistical analysis and backing. :D. Just my 2 cents worth. Not charging a nickle, only 2 cents.
This was what I wrote. "My point is, that without extensive training (and sometimes even with, given the high number of accidental discharges LEO's have had), striker fired weapons are more dangerous than 1911's, double action pistols and revolvers. Just my opinion." [/I

So without "Real Evidence", statistics, etc., our opinions and experiences are not worth posting? :confused: I was clear it was my opinion.

B][/B]"As far as the additional safeties making a gun safer, that is only true if the safeties are all used properly."
???? Are you implying that one would carry a 1911 cocked and unlocked??? Grip safety taped down, is that what you mean, provided we are comparing striker fired to a 1911??
Not sure I'm following your premise based statement. ???

[B""that the majority of unintentional discharges are the result, not of the peculiar design characteristics of the firearm in question, but of the user intentionally pulling the trigger (e.g. dry-firing). There are no safeties (manual or passive) that can protect against that."


Absolutely correct, similar to what many of us have written.

__________________
 
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I assumed, apparently incorrectly, was that it was open to personal opinions, and comments were not subject to statistical analysis and backing.
Fair enough. I see that you did include the caveat: "Just my opinion." right after you made the comment.
The Glock I used to own was 5 pounds...
An unmodified Glock with a straight 5lb trigger is pretty unusual. Even the simple modifications intended to lighten the trigger pull don't usually get down to a straight 5lb trigger. It usually takes a combination of modifications to get to 5lbs or below.

I'm not going to state categorically that there are no stock Glocks with 5lb triggers--it's unlikely and it's not something I've ever seen but I suppose it's possible. That said, the possible existence of outliers doesn't change the norm.
And externally, it did act as a "single action".
It does appear to act as a single action from an external perspective, but that's an example of why there's a common saying that appearances can be deceiving. The trigger does a lot of the work of compressing the striker spring by any metric one chooses to employ.
Are you implying that one would carry a 1911 cocked and unlocked???
I suppose that's one way a person could use manual safeties improperly. I wasn't specifically thinking about that example.

If a person doesn't use the manual safeties on a gun properly they can create situations where the safeties provide no benefit or they may directly create unsafe situations. There are a number of ways one could do this: failing to use a safety at all, failing to disengage a safety when it should be disengaged, disengaging a safety when it shouldn't be disengaged, relying on a safety to ameliorate obviously unsafe behavior, expecting a safety to do something it isn't designed to do, disabling a safety, etc.

Anyway, the point was that if a person can't manage something as simple as keeping their finger off the trigger, the idea that adding complexity (more things to learn) is going to help with that problem is somewhat contradictory. If a person can't do something very simple it doesn't make sense to expect them to do something more complicated as well as still doing the simple thing. After all, even in a gun with manual safeties, the trigger finger rule still applies.
 
The Glock was used, but I doubt it had been modified as it was like new. Possible though. This was in the early 90's, a 19. Measured 5 pounds on my trigger scale, which was pretty accurate.
 
trigger is pulled, intentionally or not and a round is in the chamber, the gun WILL fire.
Yup, just like any gun.
I don't consider this "safe" for your average individual or pro. But to each their own
Correct, my gun is safe to carry and shoot..all these 'examples need to be correctly identified as 'negligent discharge, not 'accidental'..strikers don't just do off w/o pulling the trigger.
This provides an increased layer of safety when reholstering as the shooter can manually use the thumb to hold back the hammer. Not so with a Glock
Correct, and that's why I choose the holster I do..to make sure the gun is safe to reinsert into the holster.
God forbid a piece of clothing gets caught in the striker fired pistols trigger guard as one reholsters, pulling that trigger!
Yup, 'negligent'...put video of guy shooting himself in the leg with a 1911 here.
The 1911 has several safeties, internal and external (thumb, grip and disconnecter), and requires intentional action to discharge, unlike most striker fired pistols, which are easier to negligently fire as numerous agencies have documented.
FIFY..strikers need 'intentional action to discharge' also..pull the trigger.
Most important safety is between our ears, but that being said... accidents happen. Be safe
I agree..some guns may have more 'safetys' than others. The safest is one w/o a round in the chamber, unless you are one handed and cannot rack the slide.

MY final point is similar to yours..Use, shoot, carry what you are comfy with, what you are trained to use. BUT nothing is inherently dangerous about the striker DESIGN..'negligent' use..that applies to every gun. BUT strikers are used far more in LEO, military, around the globe than hammer/external safety type guns. More NDs? maybe cuz more strikers.. BUT strikers have been carried and used by thousands for decades..and the design is MORE popular now than ever. Alomost every(every?) major gun manufacturer has a striker gun in their lineup..why is that? Maybe cuz they are safe and easy.

Seen some NGs? I saw a lady put a round in the ceiling the other day at the range..with a 1911..WAY to big for her...trying to shoot it to make her male friend happy..should have seen her hand shake. Shot it, lots of barrel rise, pulled the trigger again, while pointed...up...Negligent.

Finally, thanks for your service as a LEO..tough job...
Anyway, the point was that if a person can't manage something as simple as keeping their finger off the trigger, the idea that adding complexity (more things to learn) is going to help with that problem is somewhat contradictory. If a person can't do something very simple it doesn't make sense to expect them to do something more complicated as well as still doing the simple thing. After all, even in a gun with manual safeties, the trigger finger rule still applies.

BTW-JohnSKa above said it better than me...:)
 
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Tactical Jackalope wrote
"I have my Glock 19 appendix".
I hope you don't have any accidental discharges, or you may have to change your name to "Tactical Enoch:! LOL!!!

Well, don't hex me! I'd never want to lose my lope rope!

I did once reholster my gun (DA/SA) in SA and not know it during a class. So I guess it can happen to anyone at any time.
 
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