Waco TWO?

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The whole thing is a Cluster FUBAR type thing!

OK there looks like there are some B.M. in the place.

It is most obvious that the most of them are brain washed to the max. Maybe the B.M. too!

Like my first few post, Where do you draw the line on it?

416 kids and there families, YES FAMILIES have been intruded on by a outside force.

Would I sell my 8 year old daughter for the price of a pig? I don't think so!

Would I prostitute my daughter out to feed the family? I don't thinks so!

Would I hurl a rock to kill the person on the ground as done in some Muslim countries because they broke the rules? I don't think so.

Like it or not these things happen every day. Yes it is not the American Way! Not what you think as the Normal Behavior!

The majority of the American people would not like to see there daughters married off to a old man.

This is not the case with these people. They don't find it offensive. This is how they have been brought up! Brain Washed as you call it!

Brain washing is not just there thing! You have been brain washed into believing you need to do things.

Why do you think you need a better house then the nabors?

Better car?

Better clothes?

On and ON?


Your view of Normal may not be theirs!


You may choose to live in debt. I don't!

You may choose to raise your kids in a house at 70*. I do not!

You may choose to never let your kids play in the dirt! I do not!


Again , Where do you draw the line?


I have one wife, four boys and live what we think is a normal life. Three of the boys are now 22,24 and 25. Doing fine. Two are in the Army, one drives a stryker one flies a helicopter. The younger one chose to just find a other job.

I bet most of you could not live in my house. It would not be up to your standards!

We only eat food that has not been processed, Drive only when needed. Keep our electric bill below $50.00 a month.

This is not the NORMAL AMERICAN life stile!

Should I be waiting for the crew to come check out my life stile? I don't think so!

Where do you draw the line?????????????




Please Don't Kill the Messanger! Just My Thoughts!:D
 
Hoax caller is Obama Democrat convention delegate?

Unexpected political development...Rozita Swinton, the suspected hoax caller who triggered the YFZ ranch raid, is being reported as a democrat convention delegate, pledged to Barack Obama!!!

http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_8993150
Swinton is also listed on the El Paso County Democratic Party's website as her neighborhood precinct's delegate to the state Democratic convention in May, supporting Sen. Barack Obama.
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http://www.peakdems.org/obama_state_del.asp

As of now, Barack Obama has not done the right thing, and publicly disavowed support from this suspect! Prima facie evidence that Obama supports phone fraud!* Somewouldhaveyoubelieve...















*(Mods please note, this is an attempt to inject some levity into the situation, re: a previous similar situation with Ron Paul).;)
 
homefires.... you are making too much sense. The synapses of many who are reading your post are firing rapidly as they try to think of a snappy response such as....

"....so, you're saying you want to see little girls raped...."
 
homefires.... you are making too much sense. The synapses of many who are reading your post are firing rapidly as they try to think of a snappy response such as....

"....so, you're saying you want to see little girls raped...."
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Actually, no one is responding because his argument is a ridiculous repeat of of the same statement a bunch of other anti-govt wackos are making.

He is somehow trying make it sound like a bad thing by stressing the number of children removed. As if it is okay to protect one child, or two, or even three at a time but it somehow becomes a bad thing because of an arbitrary number. I hate to break it to him but thousands of children are abused every day. I assume by his logic they should all be left where they are because that is just way too big a number. That argument is absurd.

The facts remains that the parents will not give their names, do not deny the charges, and continue to try and use that "it was legal to marry at 14 up 'til a coupla years back in Texas" argument to defend themselves.

I also think a lot of people have stopped responding to certain people in this thread because they have decided they are just not worth the effort. They are going to spend their whole day trying to find a way to defend these people simply because of their own person religious insecurities and their anti-govt mentality regardless of the fact these people have been indoctrinating small children to be sex objects. They try to discredit the raid based on one small aspect of the evidence possibly being fraudulent while ignoring all the other evidence (talk about cutting down the apple tree because you find one apple with a worm in it) and they continue to play emotion word games and semantics with the facts.

In a situation like this I find the fact that anyone that would defend these people beyond saying "I hope it turns out to not be true but I want to find out if it is...and if it is I want to see the children protected and these people jailed for the rest of their lives" repugnant.

I have been involved in a lot of debates, arguments, and disagreements on this forum (as have most people) and have heard some things said that I have found pretty offensive in my time, but for the first time in my tenure on this forum I will be now be placing certain participants on ignore that I would rather forget exist.
 
Lots and lots of opinions...

We (including Texas) have 3 branches of government in this country...
The legislative that write the child protection laws, among others...
The Police departments that enforce those laws...
And the Judicial system, who gets to tell the other two branches and/or the defendants, who messed up...

So far the judge involved has agreed that the relevant laws are constitutional...
The judge has agreed that the police actions thus far are lawful...

And the judge apparently found, 8 and 10 year old children who do not know who their biological parents are, that don't even know what their last name is, and who's mothers (assumed) piously proclaim their religous faith but blatantly lie when specific questions are asked, to shock the judicial conscience... <it shocks mine>

When our society has to to go to this extreme to simply learn a child's legal name because every adult in that cult look the judge in the eye and lie through their teeth does not shock YOUR conscience, then you have a problem with reality...
denny
 
PBP and K8do I think you guys have summed up where I am with this ordeal. I guess I'm more surprised that someone's hate of the govt would be so strong that they can't comprehend that sometimes govt intervention is a good thing.
 
In a situation like this I find the fact that anyone that would defend these people beyond saying "I hope it turns out to not be true but I want to find out if it is...and if it is I want to see the children protected and these people jailed for the rest of their lives" repugnant.
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I agree! I do not deffend anyone !

:mad:
 
playboypenguin
Actually, no one is responding because his argument is a ridiculous repeat of of the same statement a bunch of other anti-govt wackos are making.
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So you find it necessary to throw around derogatory comments about those who do not agree with you. How unique and thought provoking. As long as you understand that and realize that some on this forum might believe that you are a pro-government fascist boot-licker, I guess the balance will continue uninterrupted.
 
From my first post in this thread:
To be critical of the government in this type of incident, is not to condone the actions of the religious sect. There are often situations in life where BOTH PARTIES are in the wrong. Is this one of them?
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Well, there have been some very convincing arguments made in support of this raid. :rolleyes: Will it be hailed as a momentous action against insurrection? Will FLDS be viewed as the foulest conspiracy you could possibly imagine, amounting to white slavery? http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695269050,00.html

C'est toujours la meme chose?
 
Latest...

FLDS mothers ask Texas judge not to take away nursing children

By Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 04/21/2008 11:05:25 AM MDT

SAN ANGELO, Texas -- Mothers in the polygamous FLDS sect on Monday filed a motion for a temporary restraining order demanding access to attorneys, privacy in prayer and a halt to Texas child-welfare workers plans to separate them from their breast-feeding children.

Though filed specifically on behalf of four Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints mothers, the TRO is meant to include other mothers fighting to stop the state from taking their toddlers, who were taken from the sect's YFZ Ranch earlier this month.

Texas Child Protective Services (CPS) officials have repeatedly said they plan to separate all 416 children taken from the ranch -- including those under 2 who are currently breast-feeding -- once DNA testing determines maternity. That genetic screening began today. The proposed TRO, which Texas Judge Barbara Walther set an afternoon hearing to further discuss the motions.

The TRO also claims that since state officials have seized all cell phones from mothers and their children, they have no means to confer with attorneys. Further, despite CPS assurances that telephone access would be provided, that has yet to happen, the mothers' argue.

State officials also have refused to provide mothers and children privacy to say their prayers, which the TRO argues is an unconstitutional intrusion on their right to practice their religion.

"In one instance, it has been reported that [CPS] workers . . . were vacuuming while the children attempted to pray. Without exception [the mothers] have reported that [CPS] will not let them pray without being monitored," the mothers claim.

The women insist they "have a right to pray without the watchful ears the department intruding" on a sacred religious rite. The TRO asks that the women be given 30 minutes of private prayer morning and night.

The judge also received 35 habeas corpus petitions representing the seized children "illegally restrained" by CPS. Those documents were filed on April 15, but were not available until Monday.

In yet another FLDS raid-related development, coordinating attorneys, legal aide attorneys and guardian ad litems announced an undisclosed number of 20-30 young women whose adult status had been debated had indeed been determined to be legally adults.
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9002940
 
Oh, now that's just silly. There's really no way, given the actual nature of the allegations involved, that you can argue that children as young as two are in any significant danger of abuse. I see no reason, really, to separate them from their mothers (I can see temporarily removing them from the home...even that's a bit of a stretch).

The telephone access issue (as it relates to contacting attorneys in particular) is pretty ridiculous as well.

You'll note that I've not suggested that every action by Texas in this case is reasonable or correct (for instance, I had already agreed that the level of force shown in the raid may have been excessive). Just that A) the removal of the children from the home was, and that B) they should continue to be separated from the home (and, in many cases, the mothers) pending further investigation.



And as PBP said, I see nothing particularly outlandish about the removal of 416 kids...the number itself means nothing. It just so happens that this ranch is, essentially, a single home and that the children it it were determined to be at a high risk for abuse. There just happen to be 416 of them. No different than if 416 children had been removed from 150 homes over the course of a few days, rather than all at once from one.
 
cell phone issue

Amazing how technology like the cell phone is not part of the evil outside world. That said it is easy enough to provide the attorney and the client with a cell phone that can only be used for communications between two phones. Give the attorney one of the units under a court order that prohibits him/her from allowing anyone else to communicate with the client over that phone.

This is a very simple thing to accomplish with cell phones. It is done all the time when kids are provided with cell phones that only connect to certain numbers.
 
Ok.. i dont have time to read through 11 pages fo this post, but i need to sound off.

a: The governent has no authority, NONE to do this to these people. Nowhere in the constitution does ti give them the right to break up religions whos principals they dont agree with. The government doesnt even have the right to ban polygamy. READ THE CONSTITUTION PEOPLE. Everyone is so eager to reference it when someone trys to take a gun away, but 'it doesnt apply' or it isnt even thought of when the government breaks up an entire group of people minding their own business. Mark my words - It will only get worse

b: So WHAT if the girls were young? Dont get me wrong, my daughter wont even be dating at the age these girls were havign babys at, but come on people, even at the beginning of OUR country girls 13-15 were being married to people 10,20,30 years older than them. Its been happening forever. Just because it doesnt fall into line with yoru view of the world, doesnt make it evil.
 
a: The governent has no authority, NONE to do this to these people. Nowhere in the constitution does ti give them the right to break up religions whos principals they dont agree with. The government doesnt even have the right to ban polygamy. READ THE CONSTITUTION PEOPLE. Everyone is so eager to reference it when someone trys to take a gun away, but 'it doesnt apply' or it isnt even thought of when the government breaks up an entire group of people minding their own business. Mark my words - It will only get worse
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You'll note that a majority of the focus here is on the statutory rape/sexual abuse issue, not the polygamy. Provided they aren't legally married to multiple partners, the government doesn't seem interested in bothering them too much anymore. Had they ensured that all their partners were above the age of consent, I doubt any of this would happen.

Had you read the thread, this has been covered.

b: So WHAT if the girls were young? Dont get me wrong, my daughter wont even be dating at the age these girls were havign babys at, but come on people, even at the beginning of OUR country girls 13-15 were being married to people 10,20,30 years older than them. Its been happening forever. Just because it doesnt fall into line with yoru view of the world, doesnt make it evil.
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At the beginning of our country people were bought and sold as property, as well. Forcibly. And it had been happening forever.

The validity of stat-rape/sexual abuse laws has been discussed here, and you've added nothing new.


Basically, next time I'd recommend reading the thread before posting. You're bound to waste a lot less internets that way.
 
IncendiumX said:
Ok.. i dont have time to read through 11 pages fo this post, but i need to sound off.
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Well, well, well. The rest of your post summarized: "I know very little about this issue, I don't care for the discussion, my thoughts are all original and infallible, and all of you should listen to me."

Not yet discussed:

Has anyone noticed how FoxNews seems a bit sympathetic towards the cult? Especially Greta Van Susteren - but then again, she is a member of CO$.

IT'S A CULT. There's lots and lots and lots of Kool-Aid and tinfoil hats involved, along with a bunch of brainwashed children. So many on TFL are quick to hate on CO$, or Aum Supreme Truth, or Heaven's Gate, or Jonestown... but oh no, not FLDS?

"But applesanity, who are you to say what's a cult, and so what if they want to live this way?" Straw men. I can't believe that there are some people here who so fixated to such a warped view of "freedom of religion" that they can't differentiate between beliefs and actions.
 
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homefires said:
It is most obvious that the most of them are brain washed to the max. Maybe the B.M. too!
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Careful. By living in a western society, you're brainwashed against communism and totalitarianism.

JuanCarlos said:
There's really no way, given the actual nature of the allegations involved, that you can argue that children as young as two are in any significant danger of abuse. I see no reason, really, to separate them from their mothers (I can see temporarily removing them from the home...even that's a bit of a stretch).
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You can argue that by remaining with their mothers they will become indoctrinated into the "religion" / "cult" of their parents, which endangers their welfare from the perspective of the vast majority of Texans / Americans.
 
Careful. By living in a western society, you're brainwashed against communism and totalitarianism.
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I disagree. We are free to feel any way we wish about both of those topics and free to question their merits and the merits of the system we are raised in ourselves. These children, especially the females, are not allowed to question their indoctrination at all. The word of the elder men is the word of god and to dispute them is blasphemy.
 
Playboypenguin wrote:

I also think a lot of people have stopped responding to certain people in this thread because they have decided they are just not worth the effort. They are going to spend their whole day trying to find a way to defend these people simply because of their own person religious insecurities and their anti-govt mentality regardless of the fact these people have been indoctrinating small children to be sex objects. They try to discredit the raid based on one small aspect of the evidence possibly being fraudulent while ignoring all the other evidence (talk about cutting down the apple tree because you find one apple with a worm in it) and they continue to play emotion word games and semantics with the facts.

In a situation like this I find the fact that anyone that would defend these people beyond saying "I hope it turns out to not be true but I want to find out if it is...and if it is I want to see the children protected and these people jailed for the rest of their lives" repugnant.

I have been involved in a lot of debates, arguments, and disagreements on this forum (as have most people) and have heard some things said that I have found pretty offensive in my time, but for the first time in my tenure on this forum I will be now be placing certain participants on ignore that I would rather forget exist.
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Look man, NO ONE here, thinks abusing children is okay. NO ONE thinks that it should be allowed to continue if true. NO ONE is pro-child molestation.

The problem is, that LAWS are being broken, and RIGHTS are being trampled, and if allowed to continue, what does that mean for the rest of us?

Does not a confessed killer still have rights? Guilty or not?

Putting people on ignore, name calling, and the like, does nothing to help your view. Its not like people are personally attacking you, like you have done to some, simply because you do not agree with them.

It bothers and sickens us ALL that kids might be abused. It also bothers and sickens SOME that laws and rights are brushed under the rug. No one is saying don't save the kids, just don't do it illegally.....

Sorry if thats too much for some of you to bear. Seems like rights only apply when its something YOU believe in.....
 
Look man, NO ONE here, thinks abusing children is okay.
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Really, then why so many people feeling the need to come on and espouse how "it used to be legal to marry a child."
The problem is, that LAWS are being broken, and RIGHTS are being trampled, and if allowed to continue, what does that mean for the rest of us?
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Yes, laws have been broken. The laws that say you cannot have sex with pre-teen and thirteen year old children.

Yes, rights have been trampled. The rights of these children to be raised in a free thinking and safe environment where they are not treated as objects and abused physically.

Where does that the leave the rest of us? In a world where people protect children from sexual predators regardless of what religious symbol they try to hide behind.
 
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