Waco TWO?

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pre 2005 law

hammer4nc does the Texas statute on marriage pre 2005 ignore the other things that are required to constitute a legal mariage? I doubt the previous law ignored the polygamy aspect or the legal requirements to be married (i.e. marriage license, relationship of parties, etc.)
 
toybox,
Without researching this specific aspect, I'm guessing that Texas would argue that all n+1 marriages are null and void, and hence any sexual activity in this context would require an age of 17 to be legal. I'm also guessing that few if any FLDS marriages are licensed down at the courthouse, so TX may refuse to recognize even first marriages, within the church.

Here's the affidavit for search warrant: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0410081polygamy1.html

Note: 17 years is highlighted repeatedly.

Here's the affidavit for protection order: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0408081texas1.html

Contains description of the initial "hotline" phone calls. Unverified "claims" listed as "facts"? (subtle distinction). No mention made of verifying the source via caller ID or other tracing? Claims are made about broken ribs, medical care, yet no mention of verifying with local hospitals? Do all social agencies proceed without first checking basic elements of phoned in stories?
 
affidavit for warrant etc.

OK I'm no a lawyer nor are most who are posting on this thread. As I read through the affidavit it sure seems to me that there was more than a single phone call from one girl that led to this event. Unless you believe the contents of the affidavit are fabrications.

It is going to be a long and drawn out trail when it finally get to the entire case. The reports of today's court hearings is just an indicator of things to come.

A request was made at the hearing to have DNA testing done on the children and others. The judge held off ruling on the request. Lets see what the judge rules on the request for DNA testing. Then we can begin the threads on how the DNA testing is not proof positive of who is the offspring of who.

Hammer4nc my limited experience with Child Services when I was teaching leads me to believe Child Services must react to any claim involving a child's welfare.
 
Then we can begin the threads on how the DNA testing is not proof positive of who is the offspring of who.
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Actually, the "guberment" planted DNA in those people to frame 'em...or better yet, they went and messed with there DNA to try and create a race of super slaves and are now trying to cover their tracks. Also, the whole thing is actually an attack on "Jeebus" by the anti-christian guberment. :rolleyes: ;)
 
All bad jokes aside (really bad), the judge questioned the state today as to why if there was evidence of 5 underage children that were possibly abused, why then did all 400 children need to be taken. This has just started, but the state has an uphill battle in order to support it's wide sweeping actions in removing over 400 children from their families.
 
the judge questioned the state today as to why if there was evidence of 5 underage children that were possibly abused, why then did all 400 children need to be taken
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Well if the Judge did'nt ask that I would wonder about his fitness.:cool:

"Your Honour, its evident that the alllegations of harm committed against a small percentage of children in this community by isolated individuals does not support the draconian measures employed by the state"

and

"Your honour, it is clear from the sworn allegations before you that the harm inflicted on several of these children amply demonstrates a harmful environment that was inimical to the safety of all of the children"

Facts first. decide later. Your choice of either of the above as a result right now is not supported by any admissible facts, so merely is based on your own prejudices.

As for me, probably the second..but hey, I have heard every excuse ever written from a fair variety of scumbags, many of whom continued to walk the streets after arrest and arrest all based on rules of evidence that are designed to let folks walk..

But hey, I'll never sit on a jury, I know too much :)

WildsoimwaitingfortheoutcomeAlaska TM
 
if it look like a duck, walks.......

then its a duck. 5 children opens the door to question the safety of the other children.

Also during the hearing today the records of a church Bishop were entered into the record. One entry of the Bishop indicates a man who has twenty-two wives. Sounds like polygamy to me. But I'm not religious enough to know for sure if it could be a platonic marriage the Bishop was referring to.
 
Remove 5 now and later find out another 5 or 50 or 200 were being abused and there would be hell to pay for the person who made the call to abandon them to their abusers.

I imagine the same people would still be complaining, but instead of "Why did they remove them all?" it would be "Why did they leave the little children there to suffer when they knew that 5 had been abused already?"

They had to take them out of there until it could be sorted out. I wonder how many of the grown women went through the same thing when they were 12 or 13.

John
 
The Village?

Has anybody ever seen the movie The Village? Well basically this group of people take their family into the middle of nowhere and brain wash them into believing that there is a creature that will harm you if they pass certain boundries. It is a very philosophical movie and in this movie they do this to better the lives of ther families and generally I think it is a brilliant idea. I think this is very similar to what is going on over here in Texas except that they are not doing this to better their community they are doing it to get laid by the freshest meat the farm has to offer I hate to be disgusting about it but that is what this is! I remember hearing an interview of a young teenage boy that was kicked out of his community because the elder men saw him as a threat... that there tells me that there is nothing that has to do with God in this belief. It is disgusting selfish perverts that have found a way to use religion as a guise for there evil ways.

It is extremely unfortunate that these families are being torn apart and that is the only life they understand. I see it in the same light as if there was one person that was concealed carrying a weapon during any one of the masacres that we have had in the recent years that could have ended a life to save others, two deaths is far fewer than 12. My point being if this many people are hurt to save many many more in future generations, it must be woth it.
By the way I am not big on government sticking their nose in everything but on occasion it is a neccesary evil.
 
They had to take them out of there until it could be sorted out. I wonder how many of the grown women went through the same thing when they were 12 or 13.
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Probably more than a few of them. This is why I keep hammering the fact that it isn't just 16- or 17-year-old girls with children that are indicators of a pattern of abuse. Sure, there may be some of those. But any 22-year-old women with children over the age of 4 or 5 are also indicators of that same pattern abuse. It doesn't matter if she's 27 now, if mathematically it can be shown that she conceived before the age of consent it goes down as evidence of a pattern of abuse in this community.

And given the semi-communal living arrangement there, that pattern would seem to me to qualify as reason to remove the children of any family residing on the ranch.
 
CNN - quotes from court-appointed lawyers for the children.

Some attorneys said they were having to use limited information in representing children, particularly young ones. Lawyer Susan Hays, representing a toddler, said she arrived at the hearing without records and had had no access to the child's father.

Another attorney called the procedure a violation of due process for the children.

.... Of Thursday's hearing, she (Attorney Damiane Banieh, who represents a 2-year-old) said, "I found it to be laborious. They were unable to get down to the real issue as to whether or not they had probable cause to go in and get these kids. Attorneys were objecting to everything, and rightfully so."

"There were lots of motions filed," Banieh said. "We didn't have an opportunity, one by one, to look at them and have an opportunity to file written responses. The other thing I had a serious problem with is ... no parents, to my knowledge, received a copy of the original petition for emergency removal.

"You are supposed to know why your children were removed," she said. "And if you don't know why your children were removed, how are you supposed to prepare your lawyer to come in in 14 days and defend you?"
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If the state did the right thing in the wrong way, the case may unravel in court. It would be a travesty if the abusers go unpunished and the children are put back in that hell-hole just because the state failed to follow legal and procedural steps necessary to sustain the case in court.
 
But, but, but it doesn't matter?

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_8966589

Polygamy case may be linked to Colorado
With Texas Rangers present, Springs police arrest a 33-year-old on false-reporting charges.

By Joey Bunch
a Swinton was arrested at her home Wednesday evening on charges of falsThe Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 04/18/2008 06:35:06 AM MDT


Prank calls from a 33-year-old Colorado Springs woman may be linked to the raid at a West Texas polygamist compound, Colorado Springs police say.

Rozita Swinton was arrested at her home Wednesday evening on charges of false reporting in a local case, but Texas Rangers were present for the arrest, Colorado Springs police said Thursday night.

ABC News reported on its website Thursday that former Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints member Flora Jessop, who operates a rescue mission for teenage girls trying to escape the sect, told Texas authorities she had gotten calls from a girl claiming to be an abused member named Sarah.

A girl with that same name made the original calls for help to a San Angelo, Texas, hotline, sparking the raid in which 416 children were taken into protective custody.

Jessop told ABC News that the Texas Rangers directed her to record the calls and the Texas Rangers traced those calls to Colorado Springs.

Though announcing the Rangers' involvement, Colorado Springs police declined to elaborate on the Texas link, and records in Swinton's Colorado Springs case have been sealed by a judge. Colorado Springs police said Swinton's Wednesday arrest was on local charges involving calls in which she claimed to be an abused child being held in a basement.

The Texas case drawing national attention began two weeks ago when an unidentified female called an abuse hotline, saying she was a 16-year-old sect member who had been beaten and raped by her 50-year-old husband.

A judge ordered the search of the polygamous compound in Eldorado, 40 miles south of San Angelo, but have never found the caller. Texas officials say they believe the child does exist.

The state took legal custody of 416 children, who are being housed at two sites in San Angelo, about 200 miles northwest of San Antonio. Another 139 women voluntarily left the compound operated by the Mormon splinter group.
 
Ooops. Sorry about that citizens. Even though we claimed to raid your compound with tanks and machine guns because of a hot tip from a child in the compound, ...... there actually was no little girl who called from inside the compound.... it was just a hoax by some woman in Colorado.

Ooops. Our bad.

But, we don't like your life style and your leader is shifty looking so, while we're here, give us all of your children and we'll see you in court.

Despicable.
 
Ooops. Sorry about that citizens. Even though we claimed to raid your compound with tanks and machine guns because of a hot tip from a child in the compound, ...... there actually was no little girl who called from inside the compound.... it was just a hoax by some woman in Colorado.
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Okay, aside from the tanks and machine guns I'm failing to see the problem here. You keep focusing on that. Assuming for a moment that tanks and machine guns weren't present, would you still have a problem with the raid?

Ooops. Our bad.

But, we don't like your life style and your leader is shifty looking so, while we're here, give us all of your children and we'll see you in court.

Despicable.
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Well, their leader is shifty looking and several of their young girls are pregnant, and likely many more can be shown to have been pregnant while underage.

But let's ignore that, right?

As I said before, even assuming the call is a hoax once they executed the warrant they did find evidence of sexual abuse. What do you propose they do about that?
 
hammer4nc

Wow...another article full of "mights", "coulds", and "maybes." I love how low your threshold of proof is when it comes to searching for reasons to start defending child molesters.

They even admit the records are sealed and police "declined to elaborate on the Texas link." So this is speculation and it completely ignores the fact that, as I and others have said until blue in the face but zealots chose to ignore, that the local Texas authorities did not act on simple phone calls alone. They also had informants inside the compound and other evidence that will surface as the trial progresses

The article also says " Texas officials say they believe the child does exist." That would be weird if they knew this woman made the calls in question...funny how you ignore that part.

Even if you were somehow completely correct and it turned out this woman made all the calls, the girl does not exist, and the police based the raid solely on those calls it would still not halt the case. The police did not act irresponsibly or fabricate information. They acted on provided information (from a 3rd party) and obtained a search warrant. They then found definite evidence of a crime during the search.

If I and other neighbors call police and report one of our neighbors is holding his wife hostage and the police act on this information only to find that the wife is not being held against her will it does not mean they have to ignore the pound of marijuana sitting on the table when they get there.
 
20 teens with child

"Relying on the interviews and records taken from the sect's compound, Voss told the court that more than 20 of the girls either conceived or gave birth before they were 16 or 17. "There is a culture of young girls being pregnant by older men," Voss testified under cross examination." http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4680903&page=1 "The testimony came from Angie Voss, a supervisor of investigations at the Texas Department of Child Protective Services."


I think it is time the older men in the compound start practicing how to talk nice to Bubba over at the penitentiary. Bubba is going to have a few new roommates to entertain himself with before this is over. I wonder if these old men will understand how Bubba justifies his relationships.
 
I'm not in social services. Some members apparently are...Q: Is it legitimate to ask what responsibility CPS has to vet incoming calls, as to their source? As I pointed out earlier, basic caller ID is a commonplace feature; we hear time and again how 911 hangups are traced automatically. Cell phones are triangulated via towers. If you're going to call out snipers, APC's, and armored/hooded raid squads (as was done in this incident) on the basis of a phone call, without some vetting, seems to be bordering on willful negligence on the part of CPS. Discussion?

I posted links to the affidavits in this case. Read the source documents for yourselves. I would imagine that CPS would cite their strongest suspicions, in clear language (if it exists). No mention was made about verifying calls. As I pointed out, "claims" were listed as "facts". Referencing "secret investigations", now when the affidavit may prove false, seems like backpedaling. Or, is this just another rubber-stamp case, were a judge has granted a warrant without sufficient oversight? Like that's not happened before!

Several have cited "plain sight criterion", to justify confiscation of items from the sect. "A pound of mj sitting on the table" is a far, far cry from ordering access to locked safes for source documentation on the genealogy of the sect. That type of evidence has been proffered already by the state, in yesterday's hearing, if I'm not mistaken. Will it be disallowed?

One thing the advocates of this action please explain. If you accept underage sex as the motivation for this action, what, exactly are you comparing it to? What is the baseline? Outside the sect (in mainstream society), we see record-setting levels of std's among teens; birth control freely handed out; still teen pregnancies so out of control, that officials argue whether underage pregnant teens should have access to abortions without their parents' knowledge or permission. This is the gold standard from which society is prosecuting the flds sect? Within the sect, underage girls are described as unwilling slaves. In mainstream society, you're denying their civil rights if you interfere with their abortion. Removing a beam from one's eye seems appropriate.

Here's a recent story from Lubbock, TX. Link: http://www.kcbd.com/Global/story.asp?S=8042820&nav=menu69_3

Lubbock has twice the number of chlamydia and gonorrhea cases per capita then the state and national average.

Last week, studies showed the rate of chlamydia in Lubbock among young girls is one in every five. Then on Monday, the Lubbock Health Department issued a syphilis alert. So far this year, 11 cases have been reported compared to a total of 11 cases in 2007 in Lubbock County.
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Mayor Miller introduced the 30 members of the Lubbock Family Council. At the time, Miller said the council would not replace any existing efforts to curb Lubbock's high rate of sexually transmitted diseases, low-birth weight babies and unplanned teen pregnancies. Instead, it would bring students, health care specialists, faith workers, and social service providers together to work toward a solution. However, more than a year later there are still no recommendations.
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When the problem is within society, the solution is unending useless discussion among paid bureaucrats, on government payrolls. When the suspected problem is in a culturally different group, call out the tanks! Does anyone else see the hypocrisy?
 
Several have cited "plain sight criterion", to justify confiscation of items from the sect. "A pound of mj sitting on the table" is a far, far cry from ordering access to locked safes for source documentation on the genealogy of the sect. That type of evidence has been proffered already by the state, in yesterday's hearing, if I'm not mistaken. Will it be disallowed?
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Now, again this is beyond my legal knowledge, but wouldn't seeing what appear to be obviously underage girls with children, given the nature of the allegation that brought them there, constitute probable cause to search for that information (and secure it before it can be destroyed)? Since, you know, these people often aren't real good about filing official birth certificates and marriage licenses?

One thing the advocates of this action please explain. If you accept underage sex as the motivation for this action, what, exactly are you comparing it to? What is the baseline? Outside the sect (in mainstream society), we see record-setting levels of std's among teens; birth control freely handed out; still teen pregnancies so out of control, that officials argue whether underage pregnant teens should have access to abortions without their parents' knowledge or permission. This is the gold standard from which society is prosecuting the flds sect? Within the sect, underage girls are described as unwilling slaves. In mainstream society, you're denying their civil rights if you interfere with their abortion. Removing a beam from one's eye seems appropriate.
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I'd suggest that the gold standard is the law, for starters. But only for starters, since obviously the law can flawed. Maybe it's just me, but I see a significant difference between a young girl having sex with her (relatively) equally young boyfriend as being a bit different than a young girl entering into a sexual relationship with a 40-year-old. Especially given that in the one situation, it's generally done over the parents' objections and in the other the parents are often actively pressuring her to enter the relationship.

One is merely young people making bad decisions. The other is young people being pressured or coerced into bad decisions by their families to satisfy the desires of pedophiles.

If you don't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.


Also it should be noted that it appears that the pregnancy rate among FLDS teenage girls may be as high, if not higher, than those out in the rest of the country. So the question then becomes how many of those were the result of sexual assaults, rather than two teenagers who don't know how to use a condom.
 
Since nobody wanted to touch this one, I'll try it again.

Now, to put it straight, I hate child abuse, and anyone who abuses a child in my opinion should be hanged. That said, lets play devil's advocate here for a minute.

Lets suppose that this religious sect in question is VERY serious about their faith. They honestly believe that they are doing the will of God, and live it, breathe it, 100%. (as evidenced by their completely removing themselves from normal society, deemed evil and wicked to them)

Lets suppose they teach love and spiritual harmony, and are completely religiously fanatic in their beliefs. Lets suppose that they honestly and fully believe that marrying at 14 is spiritually right for them, and they are not just doing this to get "young meat" as so many have put it. They honestly believe they are doing as God instructs, and as they have been taught, no doubt by their parents, grandparents, ect. Lets suppose, that these girls, and young women, raised this way, have no problem with this, and believe they are gloifying God by having many children.

What if this is the case? (as in some it most likely is) Does it still make it wrong? Does it make it right to say that OUR sense of MORALITY, is better or more right, than their sincere religious beliefs?

Is it right for us, to force our moral judgments and beliefs on others? If this is TRULY a pure religious belief, do we have the right to stop how these people live? Is freedom of religion true, or isn't it? Is it absolute, or are there limitations? If so, are there limitations to other rights? Like the 2nd? The 1st? We can't decide which ones to defend, and which ones not too simply because we don't morally agree.

As I said, I don't personally agree with what is happening, just playing Devil's Advocate. But I'm sure someone will still argue that I am defending pedophiles with my statement. Which can't be farther from the truth.....
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Anyone care to play along?

And on the other side, we have rampant pregnancies among young girls, some as young as 12, all over the US. Underage teen pregnancy rates are the highest is US history. Why then, is not EVERY ONE of these teenage mothers children take away as soon as they are born? Why are the parents of these young teens not jailed? Why are not all children in these parents homes, taken by CPS, since they couldn't stop one teen from getting abused and pregnant, then their other children are surely in danger of the same under the lax supervision of these terrible parents. Why isn't this happening? Why is it acceptable that this happens in mainstream society, but when it happens behind the walls of a "weirdo religious compound" it requires tanks and swat teams?

Can't anyone see the double standard? Start grabbing all the babies from underage teen mothers in inner cities, or removing all the kids from homes with underage teen mothers, and watch how fast the ACLU and others leap to their defense. But no such luck for these people? Because they are clearly wackos, who hide behind their religion to practice pedophilia.....

I'm just trying to present both sides, and gather some answers, but nobody seems to be able to give any good ones.....
 
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