The Guns that Criminals Carry - Know yourself/Know your enemy

[Tactical Jackalope]

Dragline, pun not intended. But that's what has been said a dozen times already. You're dragging it on. That was my post a while ago. Following with me saying I don't understand it but oh well. You're dragging it on way too much. "To each their own" are you going to continue to bicker?

Tell people the world of unicorns, gum drops, and chocolate rabbits awaits them. And 5 rounds do good. I'm covering all bases and looking out for my own to be more prepared. Not less. If you don't see that good for you. No need for a public urinating contest. DM me. Or start your own thread.


Fastbolt, of course. It's totally biased. This is how my area is though. Miami Florida. It may differ from a suburb in Wisconsin which differs from Detroit Michigan.

This suits me and I prefer it. If I had 10 miles between my house and the next house, probably not as extreme as I am now. But similar anyways. I'm just used to it. I feel pocket guns like the LCP or a 5 shot snubby are just a back up to a primary concealed weapon. That's me.

 

[AK103K]

I feel pocket guns like the LCP or a 5 shot snubby are just a back up to a primary concealed weapon. That's me.

Youre not the only one.

I dont even use the above examples (I have both and similar others) in that capacity anymore either. A Glock 26 fills that bill nicely.

 

[fastbolt]

I feel pocket guns like the LCP or a 5 shot snubby are just a back up to a primary concealed weapon. That's me.

I also consider them potentially useful as secondary weapons to a duty weapon.

On my own time, now that I'm retired, I seldom feel like carrying a full/med-size belt gun and a secondary weapon, though.

Quite often carrying a 5-shot snub or a LCP fits my anticipated needs ... as long as I'm willing to continue to frequently use them for training/drills/quals, etc.

Just because they're smaller than my safe full of "belt guns", that doesn't mean user skillset can be relaxed.

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

Youre not the only one.

I dont even use the above examples (I have both and similar others) in that capacity anymore either. A Glock 26 fills that bill nicely.

Cheers to the many like us. Smallest I'd go is 19 and I may actually consider a 26 soon.

Hell, my fiancé has a Glock 17. It rides with her in the car too. She's carried my 19.

My female friend carries a 19 as well.

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

I also consider them potentially useful as secondary weapons to a duty weapon.

On my own time, now that I'm retired, I seldom feel like carrying a full/med-size belt gun and a secondary weapon, though.

Quite often carrying a 5-shot snub or a LCP fits my anticipated needs ... as long as I'm willing to continue to frequently use them for training/drills/quals, etc.

Just because they're smaller than my safe full of "belt guns", that doesn't mean user skillset can be relaxed.

While I don't agree with your gun choice as a primary CCW. As long as you're carrying it and you're good with it, I'm content enough. Lol.

 

[AK103K]

Just because they're smaller than my safe full of "belt guns", that doesn't mean user skillset can be relaxed.

This is something I see is missed by many. Around here, and other places Ive shot, I cant ever remember seeing anyone practicing "realistically", with a "little" gun.

It would be interesting to see a little comparison in time and score (how else are you going to compare?), against "realistic" targets, between those who carry regular sized guns and those who carry pocket, or similar sized guns, when deployed from how they are normally carried, and starting from a relaxed state, with no warning.

How many here who carry the smaller guns, practice that way, on a regular basis?

 

[A pause for the COZ]

I missed this thread for a few days.
I do understand that your likely to face multiple attackers.

But I also believe they will not all be equal to the task at hand.

Have to factor in who and how they choose their targets. They are after all Predators. They over look the sheeple to choose the easy victim, or at least one viewed as worth the risk.

From most of the accounts that I have read. There is usually a leader and he is the aggressive one. As soon as a 45 cal hole gets put in his chest the others may loose their aggressiveness.

I will agree, that its a good idea and does not hurt a dang thing to have as much fire power as possible on hand.
If we all knew we were going into a confrontation. Who would not ammo up??
( Some say we should always act as if.)

But reality rears its ugly head. Most ( my self included) just simply wont carry a full size pistol with allot of spare mags as a daily carry rig.
Easy conceal ability and COMFORT play a major role in the choices.
Thats why they sell zillions of LCP's and LCR's

My concession to that personal reality was to at least carry the biggest caliber that would still fit in the form factor desired.

Now home defense is different. They are most likely hitting me with a plan.
I have a plan too. A AR15 300 black out carbine and a few 30 round mags. 1911 w 5 mags/ light and laser, and Body armor.
So they better bring their A game.

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

That ending of you post was simply beautiful. Loved it. Similar set up over here as well.

Also, I would like to add this quote from Ken Hackathorn: "Most street criminals have an advantage here based upon their experience with violence. You must accept the fact that life threatening events can happen to you. It is a dangerous world, always has been. Love thy brother sounds nice, but history tells us that this is pretty much a fantasy."

 

[BlueTrain]

I don't agree that "love your brother" is a fantasy. Perhaps there would be fewer incidents of road rage if people would make a little extra effort to be well-mannered, even better mannered than the other person. I live in an area with a lot of aggressive type A personalities or at least who are when they're behind the wheel. And sure enough, I see a lot of accidents, few of which are really serious, all in the left-hand lane. Given the traffic, I cannot understand how a carjacking could happen, although I do hear of them.

I still believe there should be a thread about "how to stay out of trouble." Good luck is essential but somehow, most people go through life without getting into fistfights, gunfights, carjackings, holdups, muggings and so on. But I also realize that three-quarters of all drivers seem to prefer to drive in the left-hand lane, even if they're the only car on the road.

Not only do different gun owners had a different vision of the armed encounter they're almost certain to have at any minute, so do different manufacturers. The maker of the Seecamp pistol, if I'm remembering correctly, believes that for an ordinary person who is not a law enforcement person, will need a gun for an arms-length encounter more than any other possibility and so produces a gun just for that possibility. I wonder who bought all those Remington double derringers in the last century?

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by A pause for the COZ:

From most of the accounts that I have read. There is usually a leader and he is the aggressive one. As soon as a 45 cal hole gets put in his chest the others may loose their aggressiveness.

We'll, maybe, but what would lead one to believe that, in the violent stress of a street attack, one could reasonably identify that "leader"?

What is it that would make using force on him first a prudent strategy for self defense, if there is a reason to believe that more than one of them have the ability and opportunity to threaten serious harm immediately, and there is reason to believe that force is necessary?

How would "I shot him bevause he seemed to be the "leader", the "aggressive one" work as a defense of justification?

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

I think he's just using the "leader" thing as a general consensus. Like if one goes down, they'll all flee.

My take? Too much to depend that on. It's happened and it hasn't happened.

 

[fastbolt]

This is something I see is missed by many. Around here, and other places Ive shot, I cant ever remember seeing anyone practicing "realistically", with a "little" gun.

Reasonable observation, AK103K.

No doubt some range restrictions may affect how many private citizens choose to practice with their handguns, regardless of size/carry methods.

So, too, might the diminutive size and inherent difficulties of shooting smaller, lighter, and perhaps less easily manipulated handguns give some owners pause. There's the potential for more difficulties experienced in controlling the littlest guns during recoil/live fire.

Personally, I'm fortunate to have the run of a LE range, and I take advantage of being able to run my small 5-shot snubs and LCP's through various existing qual courses-of-fire and/or usual training drills.

The smaller guns will understandably require more frequent loading than larger guns with higher capacity magazines, but that's one of the compromises involved in their usage.

 

[armoredman]

...

 

[AK103K]

No doubt some range restrictions may affect how many private citizens choose to practice with their handguns, regardless of size/carry methods.

No doubt. Many ranges barely let you shoot anymore.

There are ways around some of this though, with dry fire, airsoft, etc. But as Im sure you know, doing it with a loaded gun, at least at first, and until youre comfortable with it, can be somewhat daunting to some.

So, too, might the diminutive size and inherent difficulties of shooting smaller, lighter, and perhaps less easily manipulated handguns give some owners pause. There's the potential for more difficulties experienced in controlling the littlest guns during recoil/live fire.

Little guns have pretty much always been more of a challenge. Its always amazed me they are so often pushed on those with little experience. Most of he guns of this type, are not beginner/novice type guns, and can be intimidating to experienced shooters.

All the more reason to practice even more with them, and more so than the full size guns. People will tell you they practice regularly, but really, how often do they? I dryfire "something" every day, and shoot once or twice, and sometimes more, a week, but I know Im not the norm. Most people I know here, other than just prior to, and during hunting season, rarely shoot at all. Of course, all of them are expert shots, if and when you might talk about it. On the odd chance you might go shooting with them, they always seem to be having a bad day, or something is wrong with their gun.

Funny how "on demand" shows and puts reality in perspective, isnt it?

Personally, I'm fortunate to have the run of a LE range, and I take advantage of being able to run my small 5-shot snubs and LCP's through various existing qual courses-of-fire and/or usual training drills.

Im lucky in that respect as well. The range I belong to, is quite liberal in what you can do, and has few (basically no) restrictions. As long as youre reasonable and safe in what youre doing, no one bothers you.

The smaller guns will understandably require more frequent loading than larger guns with higher capacity magazines, but that's one of the compromises involved in their usage.

I question if you would even get a chance, if you ran it dry, and still had opponents. My spare 17 mags are easier to access than any gun carried in my pocket. How are those who carry a spare mag for their smaller pocket guns (if they even do) carrying their reloads, and how often do they even practice doing reloads? If those mags/reloads arent readily and easily available, the chore just gets even more cumbersome and slower.

Thats one of the reasons I see them as third line guns, and once you get down to the point of needing one, youre pretty much in a REALLY bad place anyway. If it were "all" I had, Id be glad I had it, but Id be a LOT happier, having something else, and I doubt anyone else could truthfully say different.

 

[fastbolt]

Little guns have pretty much always been more of a challenge. Its always amazed me they are so often pushed on those with little experience.

It's always puzzled me, too.

If chosen by someone with minimal-to-average skills with a larger handgun, it's probably going to be really challenging and difficult, to say the least, trying to master a skillset using the smallest guns.

I frequently hear someone using one or another of the small pocketable guns explain that they're only using it for "up close", as if they feel the need to justify themselves, and some will go on to offer that they know it's not accurate as far as a larger gun.

Depending on the owner's mindset, attitude and willingness (to pay attention and perhaps learn something), I'll often try to explain how one of the good quality little guns are really only limited by the skillset of the user, and are often capable of much greater inherent and practical accuracy than might be suspected. Some folks are quite surprised when I show them I can shoot one of my DAO J's and hit steel at 40-50yds, more often, and more quickly, than they can manage with their full-size duty pistols.

I'll also offer that spending some time learning to run the smaller guns well may pay a dividend of learning to improve their overall skillset, and might improve their abilities with their larger guns.

Then, there are the occasional above average-to-superior shooters who are willing to take the time to learn and master the requirements of shooting the little guns well.

I question if you would even get a chance, if you ran it dry, and still had opponents. My spare 17 mags are easier to access than any gun carried in my pocket. How are those who carry a spare mag for their smaller pocket guns (if they even do) carrying their reloads, and how often do they even practice doing reloads?

I look at carrying reloads for my LCP's as a situational context thing. Sometimes I do, but mostly I don't. Why? Because I really only carry one of the LCP's when I'm engaging in activities in places where I expect a very low risk to exist.

Yes, I understand the need for a spare mag in the event of a mag-related problem, or a type of feeding stoppage that requires ripping/discarding the itty bitty mag in the gun. A calculated risk.

On the other hand, having carried a service revolver on & off-duty for many years, I learned to carry either speedloaders or speedstrips on my own time, and the flat speedstrips worked quite comfortably in pockets. The habit stuck.

Besides, I happen to find loading a revolver, even the snub, to be relatively easier and faster than loading the LCP. Easier manipulation, for me, than the super diminutive LCP.

I also consider the .38 Spl snub revolver to be a bit higher on the ranking of personal defensive weapons than the .380 ACP.

Handguns are all a compromise.

Some more than others.

Safety practices regarding equipment use can vary with the equipment and the conditions in which it's used.

I don't wear a helmet when I drive my car, but I do when I ride a motorcycle.

When I was a young man I used to consider wearing yellow or clear shooting glasses at night while driving a patrol car, on the odd chance I might require eye protection against spalled glass from bullet impacts. Gotta be ready, right?

I didn't wear them on the way home in my POV, though. Then, there was the ONE night when I was driving home in my POV, and some knucklehead decided my car looked like a nice target for a "freeway sniper" target. Got 2 rounds through a side window. My eyes weren't injured ... and I still don't wear ballistic eye protection while driving a POV. Not high on my list of things to overly worry about, although obviously it could happen.

I don't always carry a fire extinguisher in a personal car, and never on the bike.

I don't wear one of my armor vests during my normal retirement activities, either (although in colder weather they can help cut the wind when riding a bike ).

Wish I had a crystal ball, sort of. Some things I'd just as soon not have to know were coming.

Best.

 

[AK103K]

I frequently hear someone using one or another of the small pocketable guns explain that they're only using it for "up close", as if they feel the need to justify themselves, and some will go on to offer that they know it's not accurate as far as a larger gun.

Depending on the owner's mindset, attitude and willingness (to pay attention and perhaps learn something), I'll often try to explain how one of the good quality little guns are really only limited by the skillset of the user, and are often capable of much greater inherent and practical accuracy than might be suspected. Some folks are quite surprised when I show them I can shoot one of my DAO J's and hit steel at 40-50yds, more often, and more quickly, than they can manage with their full-size duty pistols

The user is always always the weakest link. If you dont practice shooting at 50 yards (or any of the other "Ill never need to do that" type things), it really isnt going to make much of a difference in what youre shooting with.

I think the reason you hear "its only for up close", is because that person hasnt/doesnt practice for anything else (if they really practice at all), and has things like the "rule of threes" fixed in their minds (Im begining to think thats more a sales pitch/justification thing for those little guns, than anything else), that thats all they need prepare for, and wont practice for anything else. Just human nature I guess.

Because I really only carry one of the LCP's when I'm engaging in activities in places where I expect a very low risk to exist.

Used to feel that way about my Seecamps. Well, sort of anyway, I actually still didnt like giving up my full size gun, but felt in a couple of those rare occasions I did, it would be inappropriate for the occasion.

These days, a Glock 26 with a spare 17 reload, takes the place of the Seecamps, and carried with the same ease, and in the very same place, so I dont feel Im giving up as much. I almost have the best of all worlds. Still prefer that full size, in its normal spot though. Regularly shooting both, from where they are normally carried, makes it blatantly obvious, if theres an order, which is the better choice.


Im not sure if there is really any place that is truly, "low risk". Maybe the appearance or feel of "lower risk", but I think its generally true, anything can happen anywhere, at any time. From past experiences, it always seemed to me, that when things seem to be going to good, or feeling to comfortable, something was about to change. Then again, maybe it was just paranoia (which has proven not to be a bad thing either).

I'll also offer that spending some time learning to run the smaller guns well may pay a dividend of learning to improve their overall skillset, and might improve their abilities with their larger guns.

Then, there are the occasional above average-to-superior shooters who are willing to take the time to learn and master the requirements of shooting the little guns well.

No doubt.

Ive never understood the "specialization" mentality you so often hear either. The old "beware the man with one gun thing" BS.

You only get to be good, or better, by constant practice, that push your boundaries. You also learn and/or reinforce why certain things are a better choice.

I also consider the .38 Spl snub revolver to be a bit higher on the ranking of personal defensive weapons than the .380 ACP.

For me, it depends on the gun. Things like my SIG P230, or Glock 42's, surpass my 642's. Obviously, the 642's trump the LCP's and Seecamps, etc, especially as the distances open up.

Then again, that old 26 bumps them all farther down the list too. Basically 642 size, with equal or better power, more capacity, as well as better sights and shootability.

Handguns are all a compromise.

Some more than others.

Yup. No doubt here too.

This is where "gear" can help a lot with your compromise choices. I find the Smart Carry holsters, make so called impossibilities, very much possible.

 

[fastbolt]

If I could slip one of my pair of G26's, or G27, 3913, CS9 or CS45, etc, into the same front pockets as I can my J-frames, I'd carry them instead of the J's. I can do so in the colder weather when I'm wearing some jackets with larger pockets, but aside from some of my deep-pocket cargo shorts, the jeans & slacks I like to wear won't conceal the thick paperback profile of the pistols.

I've never acclimated to feeling comfortable while essentially wearing a jock-strap type or AIWB holster, either.

So many years of wearing leather duty rigs and an assortment of heavy and/or large handguns (and magazine carriers) has taken its toll on some of the pressure points around my ilium, gluteal muscles & such, too. Doesn't take much for those long developed hot spots to react to pressure and generate referred pain, including down to one or another of my knees.

Some of my high-end leather belt scabbards and paddles can help mitigate some of the discomfort, but I'm glad I'm no longer having to wear them every day for 10-16 hours at a time in my former plainclothes assignment.

So, nowadays, unless I'm going to be running out & about in some higher risk areas and conditions, my choice of pocket holster carry weapons works better for my overall needs. My training has been tweaked to keep the skillsets active with the smaller guns, too. I include shooting the smaller guns more than anyone else I know, even many of the firearms trainers with whom I still work.

Having had a badge/ID card for more than 30 years, and having been involved in my pursuit of the martial arts for 44 years (this month, as a matter of fact), I've come to accept that even experienced risk assessment only goes so far.

On the other hand, I'm disinclined to let paranoia take the place of prudence and some small experience in such matters when it comes to preparing to step outside the door of our home in the coastal hills.

Yes, violence may arrive or surface anywhere, at anytime ... but the world's never exactly been a "safe" place, and some risk is always going to be present.

One of the reasons I still work to maintain my pursuit of the martial arts.

It took some work to recover from the effects of surgery & chemo back in 2010, and fighting the inevitable effects of aging is a delaying tactic that takes continual work. A good friend of mine, Hany Rambod, has helped me quite a bit when it comes to working to try and keep the decline of aging at bay, to the extent possible, with modern nutrition and exercise methods, although I'm obviously not like his young athletes and Olympia winners.

Life is an interesting and puzzling journey, and it's not always about "guns".

 

[Tamara]

I carry a full-size duty auto every day, but I can dress like a hobo, and so that makes it easy. I know guys who carry AIWB and manage Government Models, P30s, G17s and the like in business casual.

But most people, even people who are serious about carrying, carry a pocket-size gun or a J-frame, and should be encouraged to continue doing so. Unless you're getting jacked for your high dollar art collection or by jewel thieves at your job in the diamond warehouse, then the typical criminal wants an easy cash transaction and not a gun stuck in their face. Statistically speaking, probably three-quarters of typical CCW scenarios could be solved with a realistic-looking airsoft pistol. (Heck, statistically speaking, most of us don't need to be carrying anyway, but it's not the odds, it's the stakes, right?)

What disturbs me is the number of people posturing as tactically aware, switched-on individuals in this thread who don't seem to have done much if any formal firearms training (at least outside their local police agency or NRA instructor) and then talk about the different guns they carry "Like, maybe one day it's this and another day it's that, but I won't go smaller than my 19..."

Are these guns? Or fashion accessories to match your shoes? You shouldn't have a weekday gun, a Sunday gun, a barbecue gun, a retro gun for when you're watching Miami Vice... you should just have a gun, carried in the same place, that you know how to use. And most importantly, the use of which is ingrained enough such that basic pistol operation doesn't take all of your conscious thought, because you're going to need that for other stuff.

 

[fastbolt]

Are these guns? Or fashion accessories to match your shoes? You shouldn't have a weekday gun, a Sunday gun, a barbecue gun, a retro gun for when you're watching Miami Vice... you should just have a gun, carried in the same place, that you know how to use. And most importantly, the use of which is ingrained enough such that basic pistol operation doesn't take all of your conscious thought, because you're going to need that for other stuff.

Good points. No kidding.

However, there are always going to be those folks, cops and private citizens alike, who seem to like to bring a duffle bag of guns to a range training or qual session. Some choose guns of a similar design (just assorted models/calibers), which is easier when it comes to learning to use them, but some have guns of a variety of makes/models & calibers.

Yep, some folks have problems when trying to use different guns, and seem to require a "warm up" in order to remember the requirements of using different designs. Bummer, as they probably aren't going to have that sort of time/opportunity off the range.

Some seem to have worked hard and invested the requisite time needed to instantly pick up and be able to actually use their chosen assortments. Something like pattern recognition occurs when they grasp their assorted guns. Kind of like staying practiced with being able to ride a motorcycle, and also drive cars or trucks with both manual and auto transmissions, right? Gotta stay current and practiced.

I have too many guns nowadays.

If I hadn't been working as a LE firearms instructor for 25 years, working with folks carrying revolvers and an assortment of makes/models of pistols, and hadn't had the opportunity to have bought so many guns at reduced armorer prices after all of my armorer classes ... my gun safe wouldn't be so stuffed.

Before I was an instructor it was easy. I was a revolver and 1911 shooter/user.

Then I had to acclimate to using an issued S&W 3rd gen TDA, and that required a blending of my revolver & SA pistols skills. Then, the increasing popularity of the seemingly ever-expanding number of plastic pistols required another accommodation. (And more opportunities to buy bargain-priced guns after more armorer classes.)

All of my pistols get trigger time when working as an instructor. (Free ammo helps. ) It also helps to remain familiar with the various duty guns being carried by our folks, too, as they can carry the issued make/model (in 3 calibers), or can choose from 3 other brands (in the same 3 calibers) if they want to purchase it themselves. Gotta be able to shoot what everyone uses, especially if you expect to be able to help train them.

I still like the simplicity of the J-frames, though (revolver days), and now the little LCP has become handy for its single strike DAO operation.

You're observation about the ability to have thoroughly ingrained familiarity and manipulative skills, that occur without having to stop and think about it, is right on.

Kind of like being able to subconsciously draw upon the correct move, or evolving flow of moves, in a defensive tactics/self defense situation. Having to stop and think about it at each step of the way isn't usually an advantage.

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

I know guys who carry AIWB and manage Government Models, P30s, G17s and the like in business casual.

That's exactly how I get away with carrying full sized. Awesome method.

What disturbs me is the number of people posturing as tactically aware, switched-on individuals in this thread who don't seem to have done much if any formal firearms training (at least outside their local police agency or NRA instructor) and then talk about the different guns they carry "Like, maybe one day it's this and another day it's that, but I won't go smaller than my 19..."

Did your crystal ball tell you their level of training? Or are you referring to a certain someone?

Are these guns? Or fashion accessories to match your shoes? You shouldn't have a weekday gun, a Sunday gun, a barbecue gun, a retro gun for when you're watching Miami Vice... you should just have a gun, carried in the same place, that you know how to use. And most importantly, the use of which is ingrained enough such that basic pistol operation doesn't take all of your conscious thought, because you're going to need that for other stuff.

People shouldn't switch their guns around too much. Yes.. But sometimes a back up may have a different trigger mechanism. So what if it does? Doesn't hinder the use of the primary or any other.

Also, I don't see anything wrong with someone switching out their gun once a blue moon and then going back to their primary.

Hell, I used the P226 as a work gun at shops for years. Then the 19 for concealed carry.

Many officers do the same thing. Glock 17 or 22 on duty. A 19, 23, 26, or 27. Some go to an LCP or LC9 or a 5 shot revolver.

Are they making "fashion statements"?

Our military swaps out their weapons depending on the mission.

Our local SWAT teams as well.

Are those all fashion statements?

Sorry, your way of thinking is severely flawed. Just because your skill set is handicapped and limited to just 1 firearm and most professionals aren't, doesn't mean you need to be bitter towards anyone else.


What is your background anyways?