The Guns that Criminals Carry - Know yourself/Know your enemy

First of all, there's something like 18K state & local LE agencies in the US, covering a lot of geography, ranging from rural to urban and all mixes imaginable. Lots of potential for variable experience, which means a fair potential for varying "results" regarding observing the weapons used by folks of criminal inclination, the experience of criminals with firearms and trying to make predictions.

I'd not disagree with the comments and opinions kraigwy has posted in this thread. BTDT. Looking at "trends" over the course of 25-30+ years tends to give someone a potentially pragmatic "long view".

Yes, snapshots of current "trends" may certainly be valuable for helping to learn to address issues (for local LE). However, does anyone want to guarantee that "hiccups" in patterns that occur locally, or may only be the result of short-term "trends" favored among some criminals in some geographical areas, may not distract from the larger picture that appears over time?

Even the FBI's UCR statistics warn against trying to apply them to specific population areas (and for good reasons).

Then again, people can always pick up and move/travel ... and both criminals and their victims are drawn from among the greater group of people. Things can change.

Listening to the situations and trends reported in LEOKA training (law enforcement officers killed and assaulted) can help working LE better understand what's been observed and learned (from interviewing) from convicted criminals, but I'm unaware of anything similar for private citizens.

All the talk about always having a dedicated defensive weapon on someone's person from 'eyes open' to 'eyes closed' is all well and good, but most people don't live their lives in the constant state of being a warrior of Sparta.

Also, firearms used in the role of dedicated defensive weapons are still just gear, in the larger picture.

Knowledge, mindset and training (initial and recurrent) are still higher on the food chain than simple gear considerations, day in and day out.

FWIW, one of the advantages that may be found in properly organized and structured training classes (besides the obvious potential for hopefully improving one's skillsets) is that some of these side questions may be answered over time.
 
Carry enough gun. I know a lot of you are okay with a 5-9 shot pistol and sometimes not even with a spare handy. I could never do that.
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If you really undergunned without several guns, reloads, etc., perhaps a safer locale to live and work is in order? I wouldn't want to live with that daily stress and fear.
 
kraigwy said:
Large high capacity pistols require large pistols. Large pistols are difficult and uncomfortable to conceal and carry.

They are too often taken off the person, and left in the car, left on the bedroom stand or put in a "quick release" gun safe to protect kids in the home.

People are going to chime in and say I always carry mine, its not that uncomfortable, etc. etc. but if they are honest with them selves (even though they wont admit it here) all too often they don't have their pistol/revolver on their person.
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Sorry, but I hadda do it - snapped this facing the last post on this thread as I was reading it, from FITASC.



Yes, I carry all the time, in or out of the house. I also have layered security and don't believe in walking around in a Condition White, either. :) And that IS very much a full size pistol, with an 18 round magazine in place. Just sayin'...and yes, I realize I am not your typical civilian gun owner.;):cool:
 
Actually, it doesn't really matter one whit what an evil doer may choose as a weapon. Nor does it matter what kinds of firearms others may have used effectively for self defense.

What matters, if for some real your best intentions of avoiding trouble have led to nought, are (1) whether you notice danger and react in time, and (2) whether you have and are able to use effectively a firearm that is adequate in terms of penetration and capacity.
 
....perhaps a safer locale to live and work is in order?
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What fairy tale land is that?

Ive lived and worked all over the US, in big cities, uban/suburban suburbs, and currently in a very rural area, and EVERY place has its problems, and those problems can occur at any time. You have no control over that.

I wouldn't want to live with that daily stress and fear.
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Stress and fear are what you make of them. What stress's and brings fear to one, is nothing to another.
 
AK103K

Could not have said it better. I've been tired lately between my IG and my Facebook page, with the going back and forth.

I see it as a truck getting 250 miles per tank. Your destination is 300 miles away. Won't you stop at some point to fill up so you don't come up short?

It's baffling how someone can feel confident with themselves in this day and age with on 5-9 rounds. They either have to change mags or a cylinder. Which is a little harder under stress.

I don't know a single person that has been in a gun fight that carries a small gun. It's unheard of. Have yet to see or hear about it. I know an SF guy who carries a Glock 21 with 1 spare magazine. Cops who carry 9mm's with at least 1 or 2 spare magazines.

I'm not about to spill my guts on here either. A few forum members that I'm friends with here know enough. Not to measure, not at all. They're just so many reasons to carry an adequate setup vs not to.

Multiple attackers. (Usually always the case if you're pulling your gun)

Missed shots. (Stress induced)

Jams. (Double feeds, stove pipes, etc)

Bad rounds. (Bad primers)

Bad magazine. (Achilles heel to semi-auto's)

Magazine falling out when drawing. (Stress induced, mag release pushed on accident)

etc, etc, etc.... There's a reason classes go over all this stuff. Because it happens.

The "fear" part is laughable by the way. Doesn't deter anyone from carrying anything less than usual because you said that.

AK said it so well.. fantasy.. 1 bad guy, 7 yards away, standing still, boom.

Yeah.. okay. -_____-
 
I don't know a single person that has been in a gun fight that carries a small gun. It's unheard of. Have yet to see or hear about it.
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I do. I've known and met a number of them over the years. Worked with some, and met others through training venues. Of course, we're talking mostly cops.

I've learned of a not insignificant number of cops who have survived shooting incidents who still aren't averse to sometimes carrying smaller pistols or revolvers on their own time, either. These minor details were also mentioned in a couple of LEOKA and Street Tactics classes I've attended in recent years (maybe 2012?).

The ubiquitous 5-shot .38 snub and smaller .380 pistols are going to be getting increasingly more competition from the newer generation of smaller single stack 9mmP's, granted. That's not a bad thing, either, as the increased power of the 9mmP cartridge is helpful from a practical perspective.

Sometimes it's still going to remain at the top of someone's "list" to be able to carry a smaller concealment off-duty/secondary weapon than a belt-sized gun, though.

Even some folks who have seen the elephant, it seems.

After a while, the topic of what's going to be agreed upon as being "enough gun" seems to take a back seat to the skillset, training, mindset & knowledge priorities.

Think you need 12, 15 or 17 rounds per magazine? Fine for you (presuming you're not in one of several states with magazine/feeding device restrictions, of course).

Think 5 is enough? 6? 7? Maybe as much as 8 round is enough?

Your call.

Doesn't mean anyone who has another opinion, mindset or experience is "wrong", though.

Then again, I don't bother myself with trying to tell the folks I help train what's "enough" caliber ... 'enough" capacity ... the "best" JHP ... the "best" make/model of gun, etc.

I just work with them so they can use whatever they've been given, or have chosen to use, to optimal effect, and try to improve their skillset and knowledge of tactics, as possible.
 
fastbolt,

I'm impressed you know people who have been in a gun fight and carry less ammunition after the fact.

Good post. I agree.

Just that in my mind, if you're already carrying a gun for self defense to begin with.. why not actually carry one adequate enough to cover all bases? I mean worst case scenario is already in mind. Why not a step further into it.

I guess to each is own. Just looking out for my fellow American citizens.
 
Howdy Constantine.

Nothing special about my experience and exposure to other folks. You hang around cops for more than 30+ years, and meet a lot of them within the context of being a firearms instructor, and you can accumulate a bit of varied exposure to the knowledge and experiences of other cops.

While some folks look for comfort in carrying as much ammunition as may be possible, other folks aren't always anticipating an apocalyptic scenario where they're going to be firing a battle-field load-out.

Sure, I've heard occasional cops state a preference for carrying a 9mm versus a .40/.45 because of the slight increase in magazine capacity, and some of those are even very experienced firearms instructors who have been carrying .40/.45's.

It's not as though that's an unreasonable criteria for someone to use for duty/off-duty weapon selection. Perhaps not the only criteria, though. ;)

However, more often I've listened to cops who have been involved in shooting incidents express their concern with being able to make better aimed fire/hits during shooting situations. They talk more training, skillset and mindset issues than "caliber" or "quantity" issues.

Sure, there's always going to be the guy/gal who decides they simply want more quantity of rounds.

Seeking comfort only in "caliber" or "capacity", though, may cause someone to fail to recognize that it's accuracy of consistently making solid hits on an intended threat target that may make the difference. Peripheral anatomical hits, and complete misses of an intended threat target, aren't the same as making solid hits on critical tissues, structures and organs which could cause a physiological inability to make continued volitional physical action. (Psychological reactions are unpredictable.)

Of course, being able to do so under the effects of the hormonal fear response is another subject.

I certainly grant that there are times when I'll decide to belt on one of my pistols that use 10-rd magazines, instead of one that uses a 6-8rd magazine (and they're essentially the same size).

When I reach into the safe for one of my 5-shot snubs, or one of my LCP's, it's with full awareness of the reduced caliber capability of the smaller guns, and with more attention given to the circumstances in which I'll be carrying the smaller retirement weapons. A certain amount of risk assessment is involved.

No, I wasn't given a crystal ball when I was working, or upon retirement. I have acquired a small amount of experience during the 30+ years of carrying a weapon and ID card/badge, though, and that gives me some small awareness of what might be involved when selecting to carry some gun or other.

Whether I'm working with cops or private citizens on some training range, the particular make/model/caliber ... and magazine capacity ... of the various handguns seem a bit less important than the knowledge, skills, experience and mindset of the folks doing the training.

Some may have to reload a bit sooner than some others, but it's the consistency of making accurate hits, and the controlled manner of their delivery, that seem to produce the desired "results". Not the sheer quantity of rounds being sent downrange.

It's all relative. Pick your anticipated situation and apply some situational context ... and hope you're right, of course.

Training/practice ... training/practice. Know your equipment. Have the knowledge to safely, effectively and lawfully use your equipment. Having some experience to back things up isn't bad, either.

Best regards.
 
Constantine said:
I don't know a single person that has been in a gun fight that carries a small gun. It's unheard of.
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I know of two, both former Marines. One who was with MARSOC who is now an LEO, he carries a Shield 9mm off duty, not even a reload. This guy has been in more gunfights than you can imagine.

Other is also a former infantry Marine who is now an LEO, and off duty he carries a Bodyguard .380 and keeps his full size in the car.

Constantine said:
Just that in my mind, if you're already carrying a gun for self defense to begin with.. why not actually carry one adequate enough to cover all bases? I mean worst case scenario is already in mind. Why not a step further into it.
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And in most peoples mind, 6-10rds is enough, and they don't feel the need to lug around a full size handgun day in and day out.
 
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Okay, you guys do realize.. that's good for you and all, but me, personally.. I still haven't met a person that has been in a gun fight that carries a small gun.
 
Okay, you guys do realize.. that's good for you and all, but me, personally.. I still haven't met a person that has been in a gun fight that carries a small gun.
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And that's good for you, but you meeting or not meeting someone who was in a gunfight who carries a small gun is irrelevant.
 
Okay, you guys do realize.. that's good for you and all, but me, personally.. I still haven't met a person that has been in a gun fight that carries a small gun.
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Just out of curiosity, and you don't have to answer if you think it personal, or simply none of my business, but how many people have you personally met (not online) who have been involved in shooting incidents?

Not having met a lot of people who have been involved in shooting incidents isn't a bad thing, BTW, especially if you're not military or LE. ;)
 
Dragline45 said:
And that's good for you, but you meeting or not meeting someone who was in a gunfight who carries a small gun is irrelevant.
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To me it is relevant in my decision-making.
fastbolt said:
Just out of curiosity, and you don't have to answer if you think it personal, or simply none of my business, but how many people have you personally met (not online) who have been involved in shooting incidents?

Not having met a lot of people who have been involved in shooting incidents isn't a bad thing, BTW, especially if you're not military or LE. ;)
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Quite a few. Having worked, trained with, and trained on some occasions, law enforcement. Not to mention the short time I spent running a shop here and contracting a few LEO's. Also, working for a local range for a friend in which they trained.

So it's been instilled into my mind and the training I've taken with them, whether biased or not, really opened up my eyes to capacity and controlling the firearm while moving to seek cover, kneeling, lying on your back, etc. Pretty awesome stuff. Honored to have worked with them.
 
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That's fine, but bear in mind that local influences within a defined area may still only be representative of training/thinking in that area.

In my case the bulk of the outside firearms instructors and armorers with whom I've attended training have mostly been from agencies on the West Coast, but also some from the Southwest. The instructors have been from all over the country, though.

If I were only going to consider what I've learned from cops working in several of the local counties, I'd probably have a narrower and more limited perspective. ;)

If I were going to further restrict it to only a few years, or a decade, it would probably be further limited in being able to see trends.

Take what you've had the chance to learn, and try to build upon it. :)
 
Pretty much all you are doing is trying to force your idea onto people that everyone needs to carry a full size gun or they are wrong, so speak for yourself.

Sorry that not everyone, and by not everyone I mean the majority, don't agree with your consensus that carrying anything but a full size gun is wrong or foolish. You seem to be getting riled up anytime someone disagrees with you that it's necessary. What I don't agree with, is you trying to insinuate that anything but carrying a full size gun is wrong, or foolish. Do what you want, let other people do what they want. Just because you choose to do one, doesn't make it the right choice across the board.
 
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