The Guns that Criminals Carry - Know yourself/Know your enemy

[fastbolt]

If all you practice is at 7 yards, and you think you have it covered, you may want to think it over some more. Being able to make decent hits at 50, or even 100 yards with a handgun, really isnt all that hard, but does require some practice. If you dont practice those type shots, what do you think Murphy will throw your way when your turn happens to come?

I often miss the days of revolvers being used in police work. People had to work harder to develop their skillsets using DA revolvers, and it wasn't uncommon for them to have to learn to shoot with better accuracy (bullseye targets often used) and at longer distances.

Sure, nowadays we're commonly incorporating a wider range of important tactical considerations, (movement, shooting/moving, a wider range of barricade use, non-shoot decisions, full-size picture targets without obvious "scoring zones" or generous frontal views, multiple threats, etc), but learning to run the revolvers within a wider distance envelope really helped people learn to better run handguns better.

Nowadays you can hear some folks express how it's too difficult, or "unfair", to ask them to shoot at 15, 25 or 50 yards with a handgun.

Im not saying to limit yourself in your experiences here though. Being familiar with as many types/platforms is a good thing, and if possible, should also be practiced. You never know when you might have to pick something up and use it. A lot of this just comes from the normal progression of finding what it is you want too. Every new type of gun is a learning experience, be it a positive one or not so much. Its easy enough, to have one of each "type", to occasionally practice with to stay familiar with them.

Some folks just find shooting different handguns once in a while to be a fun range experience, too.

If someone enjoys recurrent training, it's possible to sometimes have to be familiar with running other types of handguns than just some "favorite" make/model. Going to training where the sim-guns are older duty weapons of another make/model isn't impossible to happen, for example. Being thrown into an unrehearsed, fast-paced sim-gun scenario, using the equipment of "someone else", may work out better if someone can rely upon a better ingrained, well-rounded foundation skillset, than just something being heavily dependent on the use of just a particular gun.

People can certainly get a bit weird when it comes to guns, though.

People, being human, have always had a strong streak of ingrained atavistic behaviors, and sometimes a tendency to animism, thinking to imbue objects with attributes of life, consciousness, soul, etc.

Humans also tend to like ritual and ritualistic behaviors, and creating little rituals around the ownership and use of their possessions and gear (including guns) isn't a complete surprise.

I don't love my guns, nor do I give them names. (I know a guy who named his issued duty weapon, and liked to talk about it.)

It's gear, either mine, or just something loaned (issued) to me by someone else.

I like many of my guns, but I don't love them.

I love freedom, but that doesn't translate into love of the tools needed to safeguard it. Maybe I'm just getting old. Dunno. I sometimes look back on the youngster I was in my 30's, from the perspective afforded by being in my 60's, and I wonder who the hell that kid was, and why he thought about a lot of things the way he did.

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

Humans also tend to like ritual and ritualistic behaviors, and creating little rituals around the ownership and use of their possessions and gear (including guns) isn't a complete surprise.

I don't love my guns, nor do I give them names. (I know a guy who named his issued duty weapon, and liked to talk about it.)

lol you know someone who named his duty gun? That's a riot. I know someone who names guns too. I don't.. I was just joking around by the way. If I really "loved" my guns, I wouldn't have sold 40+ of them this year.

Nowadays you can hear some folks express how it's too difficult, or "unfair", to ask them to shoot at 15, 25 or 50 yards with a handgun.

I guess that's because statistics have skewed their perception. I prefer trying to have all bases covered. You really never know. I had a Smith and Wesson Model 19-4 or -3.. Can't remember, anyways.. That gun made it easy (in single-action) to reach out and touch 15 - 25 yards. Never tried 50 though.

 

[TailGator]

A 26 in a Smart Carry

Your proposed solution is to use a holster with slower access rather than changing caliber and capacity. Once again, the question is, do I really need to limit myself in that way the other 360 days in order to maintain absolute consistency on the days that my clothes keep me from carrying in my preferred manner? There seem to be folks on here who would answer yes. I don't think that extreme inflexibility is necessary.

Mind you, I am not arguing in favor of using five different pistols, holsters, or locations every week, more that carrying a different way in unusual situations is better than going unarmed on those occasions. IOW, I think an otherwise good and valid argument can be taken to an unproductive extreme. No offense intended - just discussion of how adamant we should be in our recommendations here.

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

I agree, Tailgator.

I think it's important to carry in the same area as you are trained. For example, if it's 4 o'clock stay true to 4 o'clock, if its appendix stay true to appendix. Also, if your muscle memory is to grab the gun continue your draw stroke and then squeeze the trigger. Stay with guns that do just that. Do not switch to one with an external safety. Which is one of the reasons why I always say that my muscle memory is tuned to Glock and Sig Sauer.

 

[AK103K]

Your proposed solution is to use a holster with slower access rather than changing caliber and capacity. Once again, the question is, do I really need to limit myself in that way the other 360 days in order to maintain absolute consistency on the days that my clothes keep me from carrying in my preferred manner? There seem to be folks on here who would answer yes. I don't think that extreme inflexibility is necessary.

I have to assume by your response, youve never used or drawn from a Smart Carry. Its really not slow to draw from, especially if youre used to it. I use one pretty much daily these days, so its not a big deal to me. If I need to ditch the full size gun, its no biggie. I just have a smaller version of the larger gun, in basically the same place, I just have to reach slightly deeper. Im not limiting myself at all.

Getting to the 26 in, and out of a Smart Carry, is a lot easier than trying to get something out of one of my pockets, or look for it somewhere else on my body. Its also invisible in 99.9% of what I might choose to wear, and is the #1 choice for me, for use in NPE's.

 

[BlueTrain]

Here are a couple more comments to add to the fray.

I don't think there is a real issue with drawing a larger (these days meaning, say, Glock 19ish size gun) from good concealment. It's something else. Mind you, depending on the concealment, it can be tricky and even hang-up prone. The problem is deciding there is a threat to respond to in the first place. It is not a given that you will necessarily recognize a threat immediately, especially since nothing has happen to you for months.

My point about distances was to raise the issue of at what distances can a shooting be considered self-defense and justifiable. No doubt the question is covered thoroughly in the many self-defense classes that everyone but myself have attended. But I still cannot imagine the distance being as great as twenty-five yards. Here I am referring to the places we spend most of our time, either at home, at work and just a few other places. I'm not including the woods, farms and so on.

On the subject of the woods, I am often surprised by wild animals in the woods, though I've only seen bears twice. I also sometimes stalk them and stand and watch something like a fox who happen to be facing the other way. That doesn't happen often. Anyway, being surprised like that in the woods is a good experience for reaction time. It's always unexpected and the circumstances never allow for a really fast draw. They're virtually ambush situations. For experience in reacting to a threat, they are eye-opening.

Since I've mentioned bears, I've sometimes asked about what the appropriate point is for actually taking a shot at a dangerous animal and never really received a satisfactory answer. I have finally decided that the best answer is, "before it's too late." I imagine that's probably true for dangerous humans, too.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

But I still cannot imagine the distance being as great as twenty-five yards. Here I am referring to the places we spend most of our time, either at home, at work and just a few other places. I'm not including the woods, farms and so on.

Where I worked in a very large building that was a place that could attract rampages, we had hallways that were easily 100 yards long. Large rooms with significant distances over 25 yards.

Now, is that type of shot risky? No kidding. But to think that long distances don't exist in the real world is not true.

 

[TailGator]

I have to assume by your response, youve never used or drawn from a Smart Carry. Its really not slow to draw from, especially if youre used to it

A correct assumption. I have a hard time imagining that access is as quick and easy as an IWB holster strong side, but I am glad you are happy with yours and I will keep an open mind towards trying one in the future.

My main point, that having an alternate carry system for unusual situations is reasonable and better than going completely unarmed, seems to be one with which you disagree, but thank you for the civility with which you argue your point.

 

[AK103K]

My main point, that having an alternate carry system for unusual situations is reasonable and better than going completely unarmed, seems to be one with which you disagree

I dont disagree with you, Ive used/tried most of those you can probably think of at some point myself.

Im just saying these days, after working through the usual progression of trial and error, Ive found one that more or less mimics my current carry mode (AIWB), but at a deeper level, and it also allows for a more realistic gun to boot. Im certainly not going unarmed, and I dont have to limit myself to "smaller" compromises.

Thats one advantage to the Glocks. The "smaller" 26 handles and shoots very much like its larger siblings, and isnt limited in capacity. Same platform and MOA's, and can use the same mags the larger guns do.

If you get a chance, give the Smart Carry a try. I think once you see how well they work, and in situations where you'd think you'd have no other choice but to leave your gun at home, you'll be amazed, and wish you'd tried one out a lot sooner.

 

[Dragline45]

Im just saying these days, after working through the usual progression of trial and error, Ive found one that more or less mimics my current carry mode (AIWB), but at a deeper level, and it also allows for a more realistic gun to boot. Im certainly not going unarmed, and I dont have to limit myself to "smaller" compromises.

Thats one advantage to the Glocks. The "smaller" 26 handles and shoots very much like its larger siblings, and isnt limited in capacity. Same platform and MOA's, and can use the same mags the larger guns do.

Do you appendix carry a 26 in a smart carry? Seems like a good way to shoot yourself especially since you have to dig so deep to get it out.

 

[AK103K]

Do you appendix carry a 26 in a smart carry? Seems like a good way to shoot yourself especially since you have to dig so deep to get it out.

It is normally worn just under your belt buckle/fly. It can be shifted to one side or the other somewhat, or you could use another "hand" (left instead of right) to accommodate your main gun carried AIWB.

You dont have to "dig deep", as the grip is normally just below the belt/waistband. Suck your belly in a little, and slip your fingers behind your belt buckle/waistband, and you have the gun in your hand. The draw is quick, and not at all unnatural, once youve done it a few times. One other advantage is, it doesnt look like your going for a gun.

Its biggest advantage is, it doesnt require a belt, or even a cover garment. You can carry basically a full size handgun, under a pair of shorts or sweatpants, even without a shirt.

 

[Dragline45]

It is normally worn just under your belt buckle/fly. It can be shifted to one side or the other somewhat, or you could use another "hand" (left instead of right) to accommodate your main gun carried AIWB.

You dont have to "dig deep", as the grip is normally just below the belt/waistband. Suck your belly in a little, and slip your fingers behind your belt buckle/waistband, and you have the gun in your hand. The draw is quick, and not at all unnatural, once youve done it a few times. One other advantage is, it doesnt look like your going for a gun.

Its biggest advantage is, it doesnt require a belt, or even a cover garment. You can carry basically a full size handgun, under a pair of shorts or sweatpants, even without a shirt.

I carry in a somewhat similar fashion and have been using this method for probably 5 years now. I cut out the back pockets of old pairs of jeans and sew them into my pants where I would normally carry IWB. With a belt on I could do cartwheels and the gun doesn't even shift. It's like a built in IWB holster without the bulk of an IWB holster, super concealable and very comfortable, and it costs me absolutely nothing. If I am carrying larger guns though like my GLock 17 I carry OWB with a cover garment.

 

[AK103K]

I don't think there is a real issue with drawing a larger (these days meaning, say, Glock 19ish size gun) from good concealment. It's something else. Mind you, depending on the concealment, it can be tricky and even hang-up prone. The problem is deciding there is a threat to respond to in the first place. It is not a given that you will necessarily recognize a threat immediately, especially since nothing has happen to you for months.

This is why you constantly practice presenting your gun from how you carry it, in both dry and live fire. You do so, until there is no thought required. If you have to think about what youre doing in respect to getting that gun into play, then you need more work.

What is kind of amazing to me is, the number of people Ive talked to, who say they carry a gun, yet have never drawn and fired it with live rounds in practice.

My point about distances was to raise the issue of at what distances can a shooting be considered self-defense and justifiable. No doubt the question is covered thoroughly in the many self-defense classes that everyone but myself have attended. But I still cannot imagine the distance being as great as twenty-five yards. Here I am referring to the places we spend most of our time, either at home, at work and just a few other places. I'm not including the woods, farms and so on.

Self defense, of yourself, or others, is self defense. Distance has nothing to do with it. As I said earlier, the isles in our local market, are twice the 25 yard distance you are referring to. If need be, could you make that shot?

As far as the woods and farms, thats my yard.

The cleared area of the yard extends to 50+ yards in every direction, and a driveway shot would be anywhere from 0 to over 50 yards.

Rural areas are just as nutty as urban areas, and even more so in many cases. The boy down the road was shot and killed from close to 200 yards away, by a hacked-off son in law with a rifle. In this case, he didnt have a chance, but if the SIL had missed, wouldnt you say he'd be within his right to "self defense", to return fire?

Since I've mentioned bears...

You left out snakes too.

Bears and snakes are the two things most people who arent in the woods on a regular basis, always ask about. You'd think by the way they act, that the whole purpose in life, for one or the other, was waiting behind every tree or rock, just waiting to pounce on the unsuspecting, or should I say quivering, nimrod.

 

[tanksoldier]

Still don't like your way of thinking regardless.

...and now I know why I haven't been back here for almost five years.

Tam's "thinking" is correct. Under pressure your body works on muscle memory. You can't do that if you have to THINK about what gun you're carrying.

You'll have enough to think about without ALSO remembering if you're carrying the revolver, 1911 or Glock.

A military engagement is far different than a self defense shooting... and most Soldiers DON'T change their weapons around. MOST are minimally trained in one or two weapons, with some familiarization in AT rockets or a machine gun, and they plan their engagements... even an ambush doesn't happen in two seconds at seven feet very often.

When a Soldier or peace officer changes weapon systems it is because the one he's using won't do the job... not just because he feels like it. Handguns are carried for convenience and practicality, not because they are effective. If a cop KNOWS he's going into a potential gunfight he probably takes a rifle. If a Soldier needs to kill a tank he gets a AT4 or Javelin... or better yet the guy trained and assigned to USE the AT4 or Javelin.

Most people need to maximize a small amount of training time. Different manuals of arms break your training down into smaller and smaller pieces. You may THINK you've gotten two hours of training with your 1911 and DA revolver... but if you've spent an hour on each, that's how much training you have to show for your two hours... one hour of training. Some things may carry over like sight picture but trigger pull and reset, even the draw of you use different holsters, will not. Reloads won't.

To each their own, but my department mandates I carry a P320 FS 9mm. My privately purchased backup and off duty gun is a P320 SC 9mm. Same manual of arms, same trigger pull, same sight picture, uses the same magazines. It's as close as I can get... and thus I have the maximum amount of carry over from one gun to the other... AND the maximum amount of practicality.

This is still a mostly free county, so if you really want a different gun for every day of the week have at it... but DO NOT fool yourself that your smorgasbord of guns makes you more skilled. It slows your reaction time and it reduces your effective level of skill and training.

Occasionally a situation may arise where you HAVE to carry in a different location or a different gun than your usual. If the choice is between changing or going unarmed by all means change, but you're doing it for a REASON and realize your efficiency is going to be reduced.

Now I'll likely disappear again and avoid the derp for five more years.

 

[Long Path]

Mas is awesome.
Todd Jarret too.

Don't know the rest. Anyways, good. I applaud you.

Still don't like your way of thinking regardless.

You don't know Louis Awerbuck, Constantine?

Hell, you don't know who Tamara is?

You're not really much of one for research, are you?

You said,

Our local SWAT teams as well.

Meaning, that they swap weapons to suit their mission.

I defy you to find me a SWAT or SRT that has officers swapping personal sidearms on a day-to-day basis. I have some friends (or at least, am friendly with) some guys on local SWATs, and they burn a lot of rounds through standardized weaponry. Nobody freelances on the teams, that I know of.

Now, you may mean that they'll swap an AR for a shotgun, and then swap that for gas gun or a beanbag gun or the like. Yeah, sure. But they're not playing "What Am I Wearing Today?" in their duty gear. If anything, they're the most stringent about standardization.

May I inquire as to your background, Constantine?

 

[Long Path]

I'm sorry, I also forget to mention Pat Rogers. Published author. Retired Marine. Retired NYPD SRT. Noted trainer, still very active. Former moderator on TFL.

Serious, Constantine? Doesn't ring a bell?

 

[Dragline45]

I'm sorry, I also forget to mention Pat Rogers. Published author. Retired Marine. Retired NYPD SRT. Noted trainer, still very active. Former moderator on TFL.

You talking about the same Pat Rogers over at BCM and Panteo? If so I had no idea he was a mod here, I've watched a bunch of his videos up on youtube, really knowledgeable guy. I actually have a big poster of him that came with my BCM upper.

 

[fastbolt]

This is why you constantly practice presenting your gun from how you carry it, in both dry and live fire. You do so, until there is no thought required. If you have to think about what youre doing in respect to getting that gun into play, then you need more work.

Yep.

I remember when we'd transitioned from revolvers & Hoyt break-front holsters to aluminum-framed hi-cap 9's with suede lined, plastic-fantastic bucket holsters. I was a young firearms instructor and I was putting in a lot of time practicing with the new gun & rig.

One night I figured I'd probably started to get a handle on the new gear when I was working a patrol shift and thought my partner was about to get shot by a suspect. I didn't even remember drawing the new gun from the new holster. It just appeared when I wanted it. Thinking I was probably starting to get it down, I devoted even more practice time to that gear.

I always devoted even more practice time to my off-duty gear, though, as I figured I'd be even more "behind the curve" if facing an unexpected threat away from work, if caught off guard on my own time.

Perishable skills.

Ultra attention to stringent safety practices has to be maintained when doing "dry" practice, though.

 

[BlueTrain]

Sorry, folks. I'm not a law officer. I can't see myself in a firefight at 50 yards, much less 25 yards. Sniper defense at 200 yards? (If you call that sniping). With a handgun? We had a sniper problem around here about ten or twelve years ago. He was pretty smart, too, but he was caught and executed. Mostly I think you're missing my point. The point is, you have to justify a shooting as self-defense at any distance and at some point, it isn't justifiable, unless you're a law officer. But many here seem to be policemen. None of this is to say you're in no danger from someone at a distance of 25 or 50 yards. It's just that opening fire is probably not your only option.

Snakes in the woods? Yes but not even in the same class as a rabid groundhog. The woods really are deep and dark, you know, but that all changes once your eyes become accustomed to the dim light.

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

Tam's "thinking" is correct. Under pressure your body works on muscle memory. You can't do that if you have to THINK about what gun you're carrying.

Didn't disagree with that. Disagreed with swapping between 2 guns. Read through again. Both a Glock and SIG, you draw and squeeze the trigger. No manual safeties.

You don't know Louis Awerbuck, Constantine?

No.

Hell, you don't know who Tamara is?

No. I also don't care who Tamara is.

You're not really much of one for research, are you?

Again, I don't care who Tamara is. And I research what I feel like researching.

Everyone you meet in this world knows something you don't.

I'm sorry, I also forget to mention Pat Rogers. Published author. Retired Marine. Retired NYPD SRT. Noted trainer, still very active. Former moderator on TFL.

Serious, Constantine? Doesn't ring a bell?

Also, no. Doesn't ring a bell.


It feels like I'm filing out a survey... lol. Such a white knight.

May I inquire as to your background, Constantine?

Worked and trained with some of Israeli's finest counter terror units. I also know Arabic. If that matters.
I've trained under a few members of our local PD. One being NMB SWAT. I was briefly in LE here in Miami. I don't find it necessary to type it up into Microsoft Excel.

Edit to add: Several classes from random trainers in Miami with prior military or law enforcement backgrounds. When I worked at the range I had the honor of taking their classes for a discount. Did some shooting with TFA for several months too. Nothing crazy.

Regarldess, you can't impress anyone online anyways. But since you asked.

I defy you to find me a SWAT or SRT that has officers swapping personal sidearms on a day-to-day basis.

Again. White Knight. You didn't read. I didn't say day to day. Never did I say day to day. It's like a game of telephone with pre-schoolers.... I was also gone for some years and came back to this. Read my first response.


Any more questions? DM them better.