Something New: Springfield Armory XD Pistols??

jtduncan, you seem to jump in to bash the xd/hs whenever there's a thread, without a lot of proof to back it up.

You are right. I think Springfield is smoking crack if they think anybody is going to buy their XD when they can find an HS2000 for less.

I've been around a lot a gun shops and have access to two of the largest ranges in Washington State and the largest police range in the state. And I've been a field tester for several manufacturers. Confidentially reporting my findings. Sorry but when people aren't getting value for their money, it pisses me off! I used to work consumer fraud cases for the Ohio AG's Office and ripped more than a few A-holes for bad marketing practices.

1st fact wrong: springfield isn't 'making' these pistols as you state, IM metals is. Springfield is the importer into the US. It is branded for them to sell.

Look, I wasn't being literal. We all pretty much know that Spring is badging them. What do you think badging means?

2nd fact wrong: The price of the pistols is not comparable to glocks. Maybe you see a dealer pricing them high. Members of the hs2000talk.com forum have purchased them for about $409, with some seeing them $10 to $20 less. Show me where I can get a new glock for that price, and I'll buy it. Of course, I'll turn around and sell it for a profit, too.

Around here, $459 is the price. And you can buy a lot of great guns new or used in that price range. And if you are $400 or $475, you're in the smae price range in most people's books. And I know of at least three dealers who will sell you police trade-in Glock refurbs with a pair of hi caps for $429. Sigs, Berettas too. Even an HKP7M13 with a pair of hi caps for $1K!

3rd fact wrong, or maybe just ignorant of if: HS arms was supposed to up the price on the next batch of HS's. In other words, it would have been more expensive even if HS had retained the importation rights. HS apparently couldn't meet their quotas, so they lost the rights. Sprinfield got the new contract, and then signed on for a new price point.

The 'facts' are that HS didn't do that great a job getting the word out about the pistols. It got great reviews, but lousy marketing. Now springfield is getting into the game, and has their marketing expertise and budget behind it. They basically have to build it up from scratch, all over again. Apparently they're doing a full page ads in some magazines, so that's a start.

AND . . . I don't care. Screw the gun rags. Ever wonder why some articles or reviews don't get published. because the author said the gun was marginal and advertising told the columnist to stash the article. The HS2000s were building up steam. Look at the following over at GT and do a historical search. They were doing well. Expertise, what are you talking about? The top selling 1911s are not made/sold by SA. They are babes in the polymer woods!

So the slower sales should be expected when starting up, unless you expect guns that very few people have heard of just start flying off the shelves all by themselves, which apparently glocks do, because we all know glocks just came out, have no advertising budget or word of mouth yet, and they don't have any track record in law enforcement sales.

And sales will continue to be bleak because of the price point and the fact that SA has no experience in the combat polymer handgun market. Glock, Kahr, CZ, Sig and even EAA already have competitive polymer models.

The key is to create a new market. Like Kel Tec did with the P-32. almost two years later and those things still don't get cold under the cases. Seecamp had that market but didn't keep up with consumer expecctations of a little gun. NAA also get dusted with their heavy but well-engineering guns.

This is America, and everybody should have an opinion. But when you price a product into an established price point with well known offerings, odds are against you. and nobody is going to make accessories, holsters, etc for you as well. Kind of like owning an Oldsmobile - out in the cold.

The HS2000 is a nice gun but not when you badge it and charge another $100. Warranty service aint' worth that much if its a well designed gun and QC is on top of their game. Now if SA comes out with the .357 sig, 40sw, and a 10mm version, they may have a better chance of justifying the increase. The Croatians couldn't roll out all of those different calibers. Then it may be nice. Hitting those niche calibers like 357 sig and 10mm will grab sales.

While, you may not like my opinion, its the truth. The XDs will see only anemic sales. Getting into a new market is risky unless you create it.

I love guns. But only the good ones priced for what you get.


12-25-2001 03:56 AM
 
jtduncan, you wrote:

"Sorry but when people aren't getting value for their money, it pisses me off!"

Well tell you what, when I have to wade through the same tiresome and unfounded statements from the usual suspects each time the HS2000/Springfield XD is mentioned, that's what pisses me off.

"...when you price a product into an established price point with well known offerings, odds are against you. and nobody is going to make accessories, holsters, etc for you as well. "

So Blade-tech, De Santis, Hogue, Safariland, Waldon Holsters, High Noon Holsters, Uncle Mike's, Novak, Meprolite, Trijicon, Ashley, PT, Sure-Fire, Insight Technologies and Beamshot are nobody(s)?

You continue:

"Look, I wasn't being literal. We all pretty much know that Spring is badging them. What do you think badging means?
"

To me, making means making and badging means badging. But here's what you had to say it:

"...Springfield makes 1911s. What you think you can make polymer semi-auto's now? Way out of their experience zone..."

and

"...The top selling 1911s are not made/sold by SA. They are babes in the polymer woods!..."

and

"...And sales will continue to be bleak because of the price point and the fact that SA has no experience in the combat polymer handgun market..."

Semantics aside, I believe your point is moot. Since it is IM Metals of Croatia, and not Springfield that is "making" them, Springfield doesn't need a whole lot of experience in the combat polymer handgun market. IM Metals provides that experience and Springfield acquires a thoroughly tested and reliable polymer pistol while spending virtually nil on R&D. Not bad for "babes in the polymer woods".

You also said the following:

"...I think Springfield is smoking crack if they think anybody is going to buy their XD when they can find an HS2000 for less.
..."

Let's face it, the supply of HS2000 pistols is finite, with most of those already gone from the dealer shelves. The HS pickings are getting slim and they aren't going to get any better --- in fact, there are some reports of the HS asking price going up since the introduction of the Springfield version. I'll grant you, if you can find one, the lower costing HS2000 is certainly the better deal. But the days of the $269 HS are gone and the days of the $349 HS aren't far behind. The HS2000 was never a sub-$300 pistol in terms of quality. And those who thought the introductory "come-on" pricing would last forever are the ones smoking crack. Like it or not, now that Springfield has it, it is finally being realistically priced.

So let's see now... Springfield takes a substantially underpriced pistol, badges it as their own, offers to stand behind the warranty of the original importer, provides numerous accessory makers with blanks, introduces two new calibers, begins to market the pistol heavily with full-page color ads, only raises the price by $100 to realistic levels (yet still under many competitor's prices), and some people think Springfield should be chastised for that?

Give me a break. But perhaps that's the sort of thing you were referring to when you said:

"...I used to work consumer fraud cases for the Ohio AG's Office and ripped more than a few A-holes for bad marketing practices..."

And by the way, you are aware that the XD is available in flavors other than 9mm, aren't you?

"...Now if SA comes out with the .357 sig, 40sw, and a 10mm version, they may have a better chance of justifying the increase. The Croatians couldn't roll out all of those different calibers. Then it may be nice. Hitting those niche calibers like 357 sig and 10mm will grab sales..."

The Croations most certainly could role out the different calibers, and they did. The problem was that the importer (Intrac) was having enough problems supplying the market with 9mms, let alone attempting to push additional calibers. On the other hand, from virtually the moment Springfield came on board, they made the .40s&w version available --- with the inevitable .357sig version ready to follow.

No supply problem now, to which my new XD 40 will attest:

fe0d9145.jpg.orig.jpg


Believe it or not, there actually is one sentiment of yours to which I will whole-heartedly agree:

"...I love guns. But only the good ones priced for what you get..."

How true. And with the HS2000/Springfield XD you get everything you should expect from a $400+ pistol and more --- rock-solid reliability, accuracy, safety, comfort, aftermarket accessories, and the backing of a reputable manufacturer.

That's why an HS2000 Gen 1, an HS2000 Gen 2, and a Springfield XD 40 are allowed to share space in my gun safe with a bevy of more expensive pistols from more storied manufacturers. I refuse to own an inaccurate or an unreliable firearm. Some big names have come and gone from my collection, but the Croation pistols have earned the right to stay (an experience similar to those reported by other HS2000 owners as well).

And those real world experiences, both my own as well as those of other HS/XD owners, demonstrably show that the Croation pistols are not just excellent 9mm compact guns for the $300 price range, as you posit. They are excellent guns period.

Which leads me to my final disagreement with you:

"...While, you may not like my opinion, its the truth..."

Actually, I don't like your opinion on the HS/XD because too often it's not the truth. As shown above (and in numerous other threads) your comments about the HS/XD at times contain inaccuracies or erroneous information, and at other times contain blanket generalizations not supported by specific examples.

Which brings me to the crux of my rant: Such inaccuracies and erroneous generalizations do a terrible diservice to those who come to TFL looking for accurate evaluations of prospective firearms. And while I may or may not decide to offer alernative views to opinions with which I do not agree, I am absolutely compelled to point out information I know not to be true.

Marko
 
vluc said: "I've handled them and played with them, but never fired them! But, i want one!

I like the feel, the way it points...just strikes me as a nice pistol."

vluc: Sarge and I have been trying to hook up to do some shooting at the indoor range at Anthony Arms near the Allegheny County Airport. Join us and you're more than welcome to try mine out (by the way, they have both the 9mm and .40 XDs for sale there). Also, Firearms Unlimited in Bridgeville and Ace Sporting Goods on Rt. 19 in Washington have them (although Ace only had the 9mm at $439 when I was there last). Not sure if Braverman's has them yet. And don't forget the Greengate Mall show in January --- I'm sure you'll find some there too.

Take care. Marko
 
Marko:
Your point-by-point rebuttal to jtduncan's XD/HS bash is dead-nuts on the money! It would be a real shame if a potential XD buyer was swayed towards purchasing a different gun based on the inaccuracies and misinformation found in jtduncan's post. Thanks for taking the time to set the record straight.
Best regards - Pussball
 
I'm bashing Springfield for screwing folks. I used to bash the HS2000 too until my range put one out for rental and one of the employees lent me hers to shoot. The HS2000 is a great gun. But when you call an HS2000 an XD and up the price, I'm sorry. My opinion can be changed with reason and evidence.

Everything I stated was direct from the mouths of two gun store owners. And my own opinion too.

You are free to disagree. Investigate the facts. Talk to your gun dealers - the old timers who know a lot about guns.

We will see how Springfield provides warranty service on the XDs?

Will gun buyers will really buy them?

But when you star hitting the $400-419 price range (Gunsamerica pricing) with 9mms or 40SW, you better have a good product or be prepared to see weak sales and in this economy US side, people aren't just going to throw down the $450 including taxes for a gun they don't believe in.

Sorry but a couple of holster manufacturers and some gun show types who don't have to retool isn't a big deal so far as support.

Go over to Midway or Brownell's and search for HS2000 or XD products. Maybe a page of offerings. With XDs pricing, others will not jump on board when they have to drop their $20K in retooling to sell 500 more units.

Springfield saw the HS2000s selling like hotcakes and thought they could up the price and continue the sales curve. It's not happening. And advertising and other costs should have planned for ahead of time. Not something you pass right onto customers like that at that rate. Come on!

Just because you're in business doesn't mean you should be.

Look at Dan Wesson's revolvers. Nice guns but Smith and Wesson and Colt still capture 90 percent of the target revolver market. too expensive, poor warranty service unless you have a brand new 2000 on DW and dealers avoid carrying them. Nice guns but priced out of the market.

The XDs are in a very competeitve price range now -- that's all. Bad case of pricing from any marketing professor's standpoint. Now if they offered a 10mm version and sold conversion barrels for 40Sw and 357 sig, they have a better seller. Or a 45 ACP version with 40Super barrels too.

As they are priced, they are not selling. Ask your gun dealers. Go see the same ole XD's sitting for sale. Ask the gun store owner. They are not happy about them.

But some sell springfield 1911s. So Springfield has some leverage to force dealers to display the XDs. You want our 1911s, you take five XDs with your order or else. Don't think its not happening. People float around in the gun business.

That's what Glock does too. If you want a larger order of Glocks, you have to buy several Glock 17s because they aren't moving as fast as Glock would hope.

But I've been looking at some of the same ole XDs in the State's four largest gun shops and the XDs are not selling. And when things don't sell, people stop carrying them. Simple economics.

Again, the 10mm, 357 sig, 40Super markets are ripe for the XD products and people would buy them but in 9mm and 40SW, its a hot and heavy fighting market.

That's all. No stress.

People are free to decide. Just because the Hi Point 9mm carbines are inexensive with a lifetime warranty doesn't mean you don't spend the extra money for a better Kel Tec carbine or a top flight HK89 carbine (civilian MP5 clone).

For me, I'd rather save up and get the gun I REALLY want compared to settling for second best. My safe can only hold so many guns.
 
jtduncan has stumbled onto something here...

...in the whole "marketing" thing.

Relative merits and brand loyalty aside, Glock is the 800lb gorilla of its market segment. Everybody knows what a Glock is; by stuffing LE holsters across America with them and selling them cheap when they first came out (remember when Glocks cost about the same as Rugers?), Glock bought brand recognition. When the USP first came out, they were $25-$50 more than a Glock and didn't sell at all. By bumping the price $100, HK bought some cachet that goes with the higher price tag and USP sales took off. ("They must be better than a Glock; they cost more.") FN entered the FortyNine in the Glock price class, and the pistol died on the vine. SIG put the SIGPro in at the same price point and sales have been dismal; unfortunately for SIG, they can't jack the price without risking the SIGPro stealing sales from their own P-series guns. Walther sensibly decided to trade on their name and debuted the P99 at $100 or more than the Glock; the cheaper-yet-nearly-identical SW99 is doing no better at challenging Glock than the original high-priced Sigmas (although the cheaper VE-series Sigmas are selling okay). The HS2000's sales were picking up strongly at the $300 price point, and can probably do well as the XD at the $379-$399 level, but crossing the $400 barrier puts them in head-to-head competition with the Austrian juggernaut. That's a tough row to hoe.
 
jtduncan, you wrote:

"...I used to bash the HS2000 too until my range put one out for rental and one of the employees lent me hers to shoot... "

So in other words, you bashed a pistol before you even had any experience with it.

"...I'm bashing Springfield for screwing folks..."

How's that? Is Springfield holding a figurative gun to buyers' heads, forcing them to buy the XD? The consumers only get screwed when the price is artificially raised on something they need, not something they merely want. Considering you worked consumer fraud cases, I'm sure you've heard the terms "capitalism" and "the free market", have you not? They're not dirty words. Let the market decide what's a fair price and what's not.

Springfield has set a price for the XD. Consumers can either choose to purchase the pistol or choose not to purchase it. If the price is too high, consumers will stay away and Springfield will be forced to lower the price. If the price is fair, consumers will buy the darn thing. And if prices are too low, Springfield will be able to raise the price. It's called supply and demand, the very essence of what you call "simple economics".

You continue:

"...Sorry but a couple of holster manufacturers and some gun show types who don't have to retool isn't a big deal so far as support..."

A couple of holster manufacturers? In case you missed it in my earlier reply, there are numerous manufacturers of numerous accessories supplying the HS/XD: Blade-tech, De Santis, Hogue, Safariland, Waldon Holsters, High Noon Holsters, Uncle Mike's, Novak, Meprolite, Trijicon, Ashley, PT, Sure-Fire, Insight Technologies and Beamshot. Hardly "a couple".

And one of the more intelligent features of the HS/XD is that manufacturers don't need to retool for it. IM Metals did the retooling by designing the tactical rails, dovetail cuts, and mag well to accept already mass produced accessories.

You had still more to say:

"...As they are priced, they are not selling. Ask your gun dealers. Go see the same ole XD's sitting for sale. Ask the gun store owner. They are not happy about them..."

Actually, I did ask my local gun dealers. And they're very excited about the pistols. But considering the guns just hit the shelves only in the last month, and considering that Springfield's ads are just now hitting the gun rags, it's a bit premature to sound the death knell for the XD yet.

I'd continue further, but I'm not sure I concur with your next statement:

"...My opinion can be changed with reason and evidence..."

So I'll conclude by responding to perhaps the only point of yours with which I agree:

"...For me, I'd rather save up and get the gun I REALLY want compared to settling for second best. My safe can only hold so many guns...."

See now that's the key, getting the gun you "REALLY want compared to settling for second best". The HS/XD obviously isn't for you. Fine. But is a good fit for many others. The Glock 19, on the other hand was second best for me. That in no way makes the Glock 19 second-rate, as you purport the HS/XD to be.

Marko
 
value!!!!

This is ridiculous! You can't put a price on personal value.
Let's look at the original HS price. Many bought because of the cost. Once the shot it, the price looked even more attractive. The fact is, many feel (as I do), that the HS out performs the Glock in some areas, such as ergonomics, and add-on safety features, etc.
Now...where do you place your value. Let's say that the price of the HS in 9mm. is the same as a Glock 19! Which on are you going to buy? Are you going to purchase name brand & reputation? Some would say that's a good reason, as I would. But what if the HS just performs better in every aspect, than the Glock for you. Where is the value placed? Where does the cost factor in, on a pistol that meets your expectations?
The fact is, I carry the HS as a duty weapon. It replaced the G-19, because it offers me what I value in a sidearm. If the Glock personally offers you everything you value in a pistol, then it's the better deal.
If the XD was the same price as the Glock, my values wouldn't change. Common sense isn't driven by dollars, IMHO.
 
I fondled one at my range last week and I like the ignition system and the iron sights much better than the Glocks I have had affairs with. The ultimate judge of character will be the longevity and service life if an enterprising salesperson gets a major LEO agency to take the XD otherwise, it will go the way of the rest of the Glock rivals.
 
Ditto what Frenchy says. When I was shopping for a 9mm, I was first attracted by the article in American Handgunner. The HS was on the cover. After considerable research, I bought my HS and have been very happy with it. The fact that it was priced low to penetrate the market was my gain. My research told me that the HS pricing was a genuine bargain, and I took advantage. But bargains don't stand forever. And some of you seem to be victims of "psychological pricing" (marketing term for all you marketing aficionados here).

When the .45 XD comes out, I will seriously consider it even if priced same as a G21. Yeah, I wish I could buy the .45 for $275 like my 9mm HS, but as the saying goes, "Wishing in one hand, s*** in the other. See which hand fills up first." ;)

Tony
 
jt and Tamara, you have a great understanding of firearms marketing and price points. Do you find that there is resistance at a price point for handguns above $500? Seems to me that there is a certain 'level' of handgun that a person expects for $500. This is an area where a NIB Glock is $449-$479 and they were $429 until the supply got low a few months ago, so that figure should probably be adjusted regionally.
 
Hello Jeff OTMG:

I agree whole-heartedly with Tamara's points concerning the psychology of pricing. In fact, much of the early unfounded criticism of the HS2000 came as a result of its ridiculously low intro price. "No way can a $269 pistol be that good" was the common sentiment amongst the uninitiated. In fact, jtduncan himself admitted to bashing it before he even had any experience with it.

And as for my main disagreement with his position on pricing, it's not the consumer who gets screwed if Springfield's price increase is out of line, as he puts forth. It's Springfield that takes the hit due to lost sales. Again, the market will eventually set the price. By crossing the magic $400 threshold, maybe Springfield has bitten off more than it can chew and maybe it hasn't. If the price is too high, Springfield either loses sales, reduces the price to increase demand, or drops the product all together due to lack of profitibility. In which case it's money out of Springfield's pocket, not the consumer's. So where's the beef?

But more important, pyschological pricing aside, is my disagreement with jtduncan's unsupported notion that the HS/XD does not have the quality to warrant being priced in the same neighborhood as the big boys. A notion that is utter hogwash. There may be marketing-type reasons for not pricing it accordingly, but there are no quality-based reasons for doing so.

And finally, intelligent people can sift through marketing hype and make an informed purchasing decision based on their own first-hand judgment, as well as being based on the recommendations of those who purport to be experienced with a given product. I'd like to think that most people here at TFL want to be considered a reliable source of information and want to give the straight scoop. So it sticks in my craw when I hear the same inaccurate drivel being constantly regurgitated by the same source.

Take care. Marko
 
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By the way (I can't believe I forgot to mention this earlier), I stopped at the local big shop Thursday afternoon. Four of the five $428 Springfield XDs that were there on Thursday are no longer there. Sold were two forties and two nines. The two $529 G19s that were right next to the XDs are still there.

I'm not drawing any conclusions. I just found it interesting...

Take care. Marko
 
There were reasons I didn't buy a HS2000; one was that I already had a Glock 19 and two I didn't have an extra 300$ when my local shop had one in stock. I would still like to get one, but I will wait until I can find a used XD for about 269$.;)
 
You know I have too laugh because of all this controversy every time there is a post about the HS 2000 or the Springfield XD. I don't know if springfield can market them at $400 plus but I guess we will see. Hopefully they can because if people actually give one a try, then they understand why some of us get so upset when this fine pistol gets a bad rap whether it be at $300 or $400. My HS is the most reliable pistol I have ever owned and I've had a few. It does not skip a beat period. Ergonomically it fits my hands better than all my other handguns and it points very naturally. I bring it up to get on target, and the sights are lined up pretty much without adjustment. Its very accurate and has a really good trigger right out the box. The more I shoot this gun they more I like it. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that springfield's marketing strategy works because it would be a shame if this handgun were to just die on the vine. Mark
 
I'm probably one of the many who really hadn't heard about the HS2000 (now the Springfield Armory XD). This was until I saw someone posting two of them for sale here on TFL.

I did an Internet search and found many good reviews and also searched past postings here. I then decided that the price the guy was asking was worth taking a chance. It is a 2nd Generation HS2000 .9 mm LNIB (never fired).

If anyone is still interested, he is listing a 1st Generation HS2000 for $275. Only catch is he doesn't want to hassle with shipping.
 
The HS2000 is a direct competitor to the Glock 17, but the Glock 17 is not the most popular Glock since they only come with 10 round mags now and you could buy a much smaller pistol to hold 10 rounds. With Beretta mags much cheaper than Glock 17 mags, Springfield would do well to get the XD in at a $350. at least under $400, price point. That way a person could buy a new XD for the price of a rebuilt Glock 17 and you could buy full cap mags for much less than for the G17.
 
For those of you here that own a HS2000 (2nd Generation), what holster are you using.

Heard Comp-Tac has Kydex holsters, but wondering if anyone else is marketing them.
 
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