Scenario: What would you do?

The first order of the day is to go home safe and get your loved ones home safe.
Inserting yourself into a situation where you may not know all the facts is fool hardy to say the least.
As heartless as it may sound, if a store or restaurant clerk is not my child, spouse, sibling, parent, niece or nephew I am not going to intervene. My life is precious to me and to my family and I won't risk it for strangers.
The sad truth is that these things happen so fast, and unless you are mentally prepared at all times to aggressively counter them, you most likely will just end up with shots being thrown around.
This can lead to the deaths of the people you are trying to save.
Use your cell phone to call the police. If they screw up and someone gets killed, they have very deep pockets and a string of legal aid to deal with it. How many of you have the same resources? Yet you want to act like police.
 
not my child, spouse, sibling, parent, niece or nephew I am not going to intervene.
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Fine. But don't expect anyone to intervene on their behalf in your stead, either.

I believe that what goes around comes around. I let people into traffic in front of me every time anyone asks to be let in. My wife comments on how I always seem to be let into traffic whenever I need to be. I let people in because I appreciate being let in.

I hope that if my family were in danger, someone with the power to do so would intervene on their behalf. It would be rude and cowardly of me not to be prepared to do the same for someone else's family if put in the position.

- Gabe
 
I hope that if my family were in danger, someone with the power to do so would intervene on their behalf. It would be rude and cowardly of me not to be prepared to do the same for someone else's family if put in the position.
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Very well said.

Sounds like a practical application of the Golden Rule to me.

Gabe, your neighbors are blessed.
 
Y' know, there's a "what if" for everything. Your responses seem to show a distinct bias against legal self-defence, as well as marked elitist tendencies. Are you uncomfortable around defensive tools? If so, do you know why? As with any unreasonable feeling, understanding there is a problem is the first step to resolving it.
 
Do a search on Google or your favorite search engine of choice for "Kentucky Fried Chicken, Kilgore,TX., and robbery kidnapping homicide" around September of 1983.

I was living in the area when 5 people were abducted from the restaurant during a robbery gone bad; they were driven across a county line and executed with a bullet to the back of the head and another to the back by persons believed to be 3 in number. Total take may have been $400, US$. Still 'unsolved', but this month there are possibly persons linked, perhaps reliably to the crime.

I was driving past the location at the approximate time this took place. It deeply affected the community and divides it to this day.

If I were in a business...any business...knowing what I do now...knowing that I could be harrassed by the perp's 'family' for offing the little goblin before he pops the pizza boy...

I'd take the little bastard out immediately without saying a word and sleep great that night and every night after that, knowing I had done the right thing.

Regards,
Rabbit.

To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. - Confucius, Analects, c.400 b.c.
 
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Thanks.

FWIW, I reckon I have to look in the mirror every day, and I want to like what I see. (Hey, no wise cracks!) :)
 
Spectre-
Those "what-if's" are things that every person should consider before using deadly force in any situation. Otherwise, its a sure way to find yourself in a "pine box" or a barred room.
You don't know me, don't act like you do after reading 2 messages. Personal attacks do nothing to boost your argument.
 
"If you shoot it, you bought it." If there is no clear shot, no shot should be taken unless (perhaps) there is nothing to lose- i.e. it is a given that the innocent will be taken out, regardless.

There is a proud history of individual action and responsibility in America. It is deeply ingrained into our national identity. Those who do their homework know that the committed amateur is often more skilled in the US than the avg LEO. Follow your conscience, and thankfully, others will follow theirs.

Remember, if we left things to the "professionals", we would have no need to pay any attention to the politicians...:rolleyes:
 
I have read through this whole thread and it's alot to think about. Not sure what I would do. I also think that anyone who says they know what they would do is full of it, unless they have expierenced this situation previously. I also am not sure of the legality of the whole situation either.

And what about civil suits? This secnario made me think of a story told to me during my basic safety class required for my permit. A local liqour store owner who had been robbed previously decieded to get a pistol and permitt to defend himself at his store. He was robbed at gunpoint sometime after he abtained his weapon. During the robbery he was fired at twice both shots missed. He proceeded to return fire and killed the BG. He was arrested for Manslaughter witch was dissmissed almost immiadtly. Now I bet you guys are thinking all good right well WRONG. He was then sued by the BG's family for killing there son. The BG's family won the lawsuit because the store owner failed to warn the BG he was going to shoot him. I don't know about all of you guys but I am a measly public servent that can't afford to pay some BG's family hundreds of thousands of dollars. Just something to think about.
 
Ah, one could make the argument that a weapon pointed at somebody's head is an immediate threat of grave bodily harm or life endangerment. Thus, the duty is to find the 'holy ground' in the restaurant, draw, and announce to the perp that he ought to stop or be dropped.

That being said, there's also the possibility that one could herd the other patrons out of the joint, call 911, and leave the clerk to his own devices. In all likelihood, there will not be a shooting--most armed robberies are 'no shots fired' events.

ANALYSIS: Stopping the BG is the better action. When he is stopped, there is NO possibility of harm to ANYONE. Herding the 10 others out leaves the clerk defenseless, and possibly hurt or dead. However, the obligation to stop the BG carries the requirement that, to the maximum extent possible, YOU are certain that you can STOP him and NOBODY gets hurt.

They are all tough cases.
 
chances are he's out on bail.a majority of bg's are.you are in fear of the boy's life,your life ,and 10 other people's lives.shoot him dead.do not wound him.there may even be a reward on him.What if the cops had picked up the maryland terroists the first time they stopped them?maryland by the way is one of the stricter gun control states,of course so is wash dc.go figure.sarbuck:mad:
 
Oh, by the way:

I saw your post on this this thread Navy Joe. Unfortunately it, along with my previous response was deleted during the server follies.

A word for you, sir.
HUZZAH!

Regards,
Rabbit.
 
I'm not sure I read that last one correctly. OC as in pepper spray? Against an armed man?

Anyway, interesting thread. I noticed a lot of the responses assumed things that quite possibly won't be the case, time being one of them. Withdrawing and getting the customers out of the restaurant may be a good idea, but that's going to take a lot of tme, and it's going to take your attention away from the gunman. Not only that, you increase the risk of drawing the gunman's attention toward the rest of the patrons. And now you've got your attention divided.

The first thing to do is to look out the window. Is there a car and driver awaiting the subject? Just one occupant? Is the car in a position to see into the restaurant? These are good things to know. You can't be a mindreader, but you can try to pick up on the state of the gunman as much as possible. Drugged? Nervous? Agressive? Apologetic? There are all kinds of surface emotions that might be readable in a short period of time, from body language or voice.

Once you've made a (very fast, and probably not reliable) assesment, you need to decide (very quickly) whether or not to use force. If you decide not to, stay out of sight. If you decide force is necessary, better to draw while concealed around the corner, and perhaps better to engage from a lower position when you come back around the corner.

If you do engage, do you give a verbal command or do you simply shoot the guy? I'd have to say that it's probably best for everyone to give the verbal command. so long as the person's gun is pointed away from the clerk. If the clerk's still at the point of the gun, you'd better skip the verbiage, and aim for a CNS hit and hope that your accuracy holds up under the pressure and adrenaline.

Keeping in mind, you've probably got a couple of seconds at best to assess the situation and decide to act and how to act. I'd have to say the best preparation for this kind of scenario isn't so much in reviewing use of force (gun pointing at victim, use of force justified right there) as in practicing your ability to quickly take in as many details as possible. You certainly don't want to engage the guy if he's got a car full of armed partners just outside, or for that matter seated at one of the tables. On the other hand, you may be compelled to engage regardless if the subject seems intent on meyhem.)

Just my .02.
 
See the following thread:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=137754

If you (a) are within range; (b) can get a good shot at the BG, and; (c) have the good stuff within a year after manufacture and and fully charged: then it might work about as reliably as a firearm in this scenario. And it certainly avoids some of the dilemmas pointed out in this thread.

Plus, if you don't have a firearm, ya gotta use what ya got.

Just trying to think outside the box here.

- pdmoderator
 
Sounds like good stuff. Given the unlikelihood of concealed carry in the PRK, it might be a viable alternative in a tight spot.
 
OC spray against a gun isn't a winning scenario. It doesn't control the firearm and the BG has the ability to pull a trigger while suffering the effects of OC. At contact distance, it might be viable to close with OC and engage empty-empty hand but I certainly wouldn't close if I wasn't already close to the BG.

I think, the way the scenario was initially described, you would be better off making for an exit (or making an exit--i.e., bust a window) and moving to a position of cover and then call the police/EMS. Distance=safety.
 
Gun against gun isn't a winning scenarion either, if the BG has it aimed and his finger on the trigger. Same reasons.

- pdmoderator
 
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