Scenario: What would you do?

I see all you points as valid. Crime just does not happen in the bad areas any more. It happens all around us. My kid just had his Wal-mart special bicylce stolen. We live in a "good" neighborhood. The local gas station was just robbed here a few weeks ago. The very day I was in to get finger-printed for my CCP, a local contractor's truck was stolen in broad daylight right behing the stinking police station...the very hour when the Captain was finger printing me. I live in a "good" area.

So, while I understand the circumstances of the fist post, I also understand that if we a citizens do not stand our ground and say no, these guys will continue to do what they want. Do you know what the coolest crime is now???? It is home invasion robbery...robbing anything as well as the virginity of our daughters....just for a thrill. The next hottest thing in our area next to that is robbing banks.

I understand what you say and agree with you up to a point. LEOs are our friends but they can't be everywhere. I'm not a hyper wacked person. I just don't want these BG doing whatever they went when they want and where ever they want.

Not trying to argue...but just stating it the way I see it.

You, know, if we stop going to Pizza places because they get robbed and because they are a luxury, the bad guys will come find us because that is where the money is. I say we go where we want to freely and if we just so happen to bump into a bad guy with a gun then we deal with that when it comes up.
 
Hummersander,

I agree with you totally, we can't let the BG's rule the world. Home invasion is a different scenario all together, you must defend your home and family. I know crime doesn't just happen in the bad area's anymore and thats why CCW is important. All I was just trying to point out is that if you are anticipating a 4th robbery happening at this particular pizza hut, aren't you just better off having dinner somewhere else? Is that pizza really worth risking your life over? Is someone elses few dollars worth risking your life over? Thats really all I am saying. I just think that if you are anticipating a 4th robbery my suggestion would be to avoid the place. Its unfortunate that some individuals seem to let carrying a concealed weapon instill a false confidence that could get them and others killed. Civil suits are no joking matter.

IMHO if the original poster thinks a 4th attempt is going to be made to rob the pizza hut, why would you want to eat there? IMHO you are seeking out trouble instead of trying to avoid it. Again I think CCW can lead one into a false sense of security and a lack of good sound judgement, but that is just my opinion.
 
xnavy, I didn't mean to take what you said out of context.

Eating pizza is a luxury that you really don't have to have.
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I suppose not. But ask the two brothers who run the pizza place across the road from me- they might think it was more of a neccessity, it being their livelihood and all. They haven't been robbed, but if they had the misfortune of being robbed I wouldn't take any of my business from them. Of course, if they got robbed every Tuesday, maybe I'd get delivery or make Tuesday taco night. :)

BTW, I respect your opinion and the other dissenting opinions here. I think we're talking about a question of degree, more than anything. In my case- I can't speak for others- carrying a sidearm is not a "macho" thing. I don't go looking for trouble.

Let me put it this way. New scenario. I took a course on CPR years ago. Probably about time to take a refresher course, but I could handle it. I'll probably never have to use it. I don't walk around the grocery store hoping some old guy will collapse in front of me in line. That's my worst nightmare.

I'm not a LEO. Duh. I couldn't afford the pay cut. I'm not a paramedic, either. Someone drops in front of me in line at Winn-Dixie, you could say it's none of my business. True. I have no legal duty to help anybody. True. I could get sued if I help. True. I could be held accountable for every broken rib. True. I could step right over the dying SOB, and take my food out to the car. True.

CPR will never save ME, like CCW might. Why even take the CPR course? To be a good neighbor. I have to think it probably won't but could happen, so I prepare myself for it. Being prepared to help a loved one or even a stranger who has loved ones at home, isn't trying to be a hero, or macho, it's being a good neighbor. Being prepared to save yourself- that's just survival instinct that every being comes with out of the factory.

Again, I think we're talking about degree.

Five degrees that I see here:

1. There's the guy walking around every day looking for trouble, poised to blow someone away. This guy is crazy as hell. These guys are rare, I trust, on this forum.

2. There's the guy who carries into the aforementioned place thinking it may be robbed.

3. There's the guy who carries everywhere. Because "One more gun couldn't hurt, right?" He thinks the pizza place is no more dangerous than the fast-moving highway in front of it.

4. There's the guy who won't carry into the aforementioned pizza place 'cause he thinks "it would never happen to me".

5. Then there's the guy paranoid enough to think the pizza place in the original post is too dangerous and will avoid it like the plague. I think he's as crazy as the guy in #1. Fortunately, these guys are rare, too.

xnavy, I really don't think you are in category 1 or 5, so I don't think we are far from agreeing, and as long as you are a pro-gun gunowner I consider you a friend.

Clone yourself, the sport needs more of you.
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Pythonguy, with all due respect, I don't think of the defensive use of the pistol as a "sport". We're not talking about paper targets, we're talking about people's lives.
 
Wayne,

I do respect your opinion and like I said, everyone has to be accountable for thier own actions. I consider all CCL owners brothers in arms. The only thing I am trying to get across is be careful what you wish for it may happen. Like I said the original poster is already anticipating a 4th robbery and yet he still wants to have dinner knowing that the chances are good it will get robbed again. Its not paranoid to think the place is dangerous when its been robbed 3 times and the poster is already anticipating a 4th robbery. Maybe the pizza place is in a high crime area, that wasn't addressed in his post. I carry to protect myself and my family and if the situation calls for it to protect innoncent life. With this in mind I still will use good judgement about where I take my family. I won't take my family somewhere where there has been repeated robberies, it doesn't make good sense IMHO.

P.S. I am not sure I would categorize CPR and CCW as the same. One is strictly used to save life presenting no danger to others. The other can be used to take life either BG's or Innoncents depending on your training and skills.

Its ok for us to disagree, thats what makes america wonderful.
 
All this physiology has me confused...Bad guy holding up some place and probably going to shoot an unarmed person and or persons ?? Possible will not want to leave any witnesses.....Glock 20C--center body only to alleviate the threat---Bang, bang, have a nice day.........
 
P.S. I am not sure I would categorize CPR and CCW as the same. One is strictly used to save life presenting no danger to others. The other can be used to take life either BG's or Innocents depending on your training and skills.
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CPR and other first aid skills can be misused causing injury or death to a victim. Don't think for a minute you won't be sued for trying to help someone out in a situation like that. One case comes to mind in which a sheriff's deputy lost his legs when hit by a drunk driver in our town. A retired LEO (Massachusetts state trooper?) stopped to help and was sued for putting a tourniquet on his leg.

Its ok for us to disagree, thats what makes america wonderful.
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I agree.
 
Wayne I agree that you can hurt the victim with CPR or first aid. What I meant to get across is he or she is the only one you can hurt. Using CPR can only hurt the person you are working on, a CCW can not only hurt the BG but other innocent victims as well. That is why I said the Two really can't be compared.
 
No vest, no backup, no radio, 1 magazine, not sure who who's working with him... I would quietly get on the cell phone and act as one hell of a witness unless the stuff really hits the fan.
 
let me think..

if he looked like he was going to shoot the clerk then I would shoot his ass, but if not then I would get my a$$ out of there as soon as posisible and call the fuzz. :D :D :D
 
I will scan the surroundings for a clear shot and take it. A lot of armed robbers shoot their victims even if they are cooperative as my friends mom found out. She owns a small resturant and was locking up. One guy walks in with a gun and since she has been robbed a few times in the past she hands him the money like always but this time the guy shoots her in the chest severing nerves, she is now paralyzed from the neck down. If I was ever in a situtation like that I will not hestitate to take out the robber. Besides, its not like the pizza guy will file charges aganist you after you take out someone threatening to kill you.
 
it all depends on the situation/scenario. 99% chance is that i would make like hell out of the store and drive far away. if that 1% chance of him not having a clear shot on anyone and him not seeing me at the same time with no innocent civis by him... i would most certainly push his wig back with a nice hollow point.
 
What if his gun was not loaded or a pellet gun and you shot him in the head standing behind him? I would not feel good about that (though if he pointed anything that looked like a gun at me I would shoot). If you can not take cover and from cover tell him to drop the gun then you should leave the scene.
 
Its on the security cameras, BG was seen pulling a "gun" and using it in a threatening manner. If those damned proscuetors can spin a yarn into getting some little kid in jail for plinking cans with a toy gun im sure I can find a defense attorney that will substantiate my story.
 
Check your six, NOW.

Does the BG have an accomplice? a getaway driver? someone who would be totally po'd if you turned his head into a spaghetti bowl?

I will protect mine and me. I will also protect others, but it is MY responsiblity not to be turned into wallpaper by a 12 gauge from an accomplice.

If you pull your piece, the accomplice may waste you immediately.

If it is clear, pull it, and watch the BG. If he looks like he is going to take the money and run, let him get the hell out. If he looks like he is going to kill the kid for a few bucks, I would blow him the hell away.

Why would you go to a pizza place which you know has been robbed three times recently? Aren't there other places to eat? Do you have a Charles Bronson complex? Just questions to ask yourself.
 
The argument that the pizza shop is not a necessity is a fairly valid one.

However, to answer the original question: I would shoot, assuming that I had a clear shot and there were no accomplices.

In PA, we may legally use lethal force to defend others in any circumstance where the victim of the crime could legally use lethal force. That is, since I could shoot someone for drawing a gun on me, I can also shoot someone for pulling a gun on somebody else.

If somebody has a gun (loaded, unloaded, facsimile, or otherwise) and is using it in a threatening manner, the only rational assumption is that they're willing to shoot somebody.

Lawsuits, I can deal with (hell, my total assets only amount to a few grand anyway). Knowing that I could have acted to save somebody's life, but didn't would haunt me forever.
 
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On a thread witha 7 page reply list, I don't read them all....sorry....short attention span. Here is how I view it...from a civilian point of view.

Walking into the situation, you DON'T know, or should presume he has a accomplice watching the situation. It's a safer bet. My first priority is going to the 10 other people....quick view and tell whisper to the closest one to call the police. Then, quickly turn your attention back to the robbery. You can take a shot, yes, but then you open yourself up to ALOT of litigation.....a personal satisfaction from doing what is right yes, but litigation out the ying-yang. Be prepared for that.

If you can get through the situation without a loss of life, the better it all is. Heck, with so many camera phones out there, snap a picture of him and send it to the detectives....lol. I say, keep cover, monitor the situation and try to assertain if he will shoot the clerk. I don't want the haunting image of brain matter flying all over the place.

Just because you have the ability to kill, doesn't mean every time to use it.

The BG may be scum, a low life, but he is still a person....why take a human life unless it is absolutely needed.
 
Didn't read it all either :p

I like the shepard idea. I would have a hard time living with myself is something happened to those people and I got out cus I left. I mean, I don't just carry to protect me. I carry to protect other people too. I mean, how would you feel if you found out later that he capped some little kid? :(

But on the other hand, he might have an accomplice. If possible, quietly get the other customers to leave out the back while getting on the phone. And I make damn sure the operator knows I'm armed.

Now if its me, once everyone possible is out, I'm staying. First I'm gonna try and locate another BG. If I see one or more, time to leave. Discretion is the better part of valor.

If one BG, then I find the most defensive place I can that has a view of the exits and bathroom. Get my pistol out and ready. Center my sights. Call out to him. Be authoritative, but not over the top. Tell him that the police are on the way and that if he wants to live, he should leave now. If he threatens either me or the cashier, bang.

Oh and one other thing: If he looks either intoxicated or high, I empty the magazine. I really don't wanna wrestle a guy on PCP.
 
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