Scenario: What would you do?

Pull the pin on my Concealed Carry Grenade, roll towards perp, jump for cover.

Or

Mentally burn good picture of what I saw and take note of time and description of threat. Strategically manuevar my hind quarters away from threat. Check holster, Open cell phone, call in Po-po, be good witness for po-po, go home.

If other people are in resturaunt, and there is a crowd of customers, perp prolly won't discharge gun. And prolly has a buddy in a get away car outside, beware of that. Don't know if perp is alone or with others.
 
are we supposed to assume that everyone thinks before shooting?
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Actually, yes, I was assuming that everyone would think before acting. For me, the big question of the scenario was whether or not it was morally defensible to engage someone in the act of armed robbery.

- Gabe
 
richhelton84,

No, I think what Chris may be saying is that in this situation, since he was unnoticed and his life was not immediately threatened, the more prudent thing would be to slip out and call 911.

It's one thing to take on the responsibility to protect yourself and your family, and yet another to take on the responsibility to protect society at large.
 
quote: "It's one thing to take on the responsibility to protect yourself and your family, and yet another to take on the responsibility to protect society at large."

That's very true. I hadn't thought about slipping out. Most of the Pizza Huts I've been in have the exits to due right and left of the cash register, so there wouldn't be much of a chance of slipping out without the BG noticing you. Then, if you did somehow get to the door unnoticed, he'd definitely know you were trying to get out.

I just assumed that the people in Pizza Hut were all unable to exit the restaurant because of the position of the doors to the cash register. Smashing and jumping out a window might be an option. ;)

Rich
 
What GRD said.

All I would add is that:

"I was in fear for my life, and that of the employee's. I am very upset right now, and I would like to speak with my attorney."
 
The scenario spelled it out that I am alone, without my family.

I'd immediately move closer to the ground towards cover or at least concealment (while making assessments and drawing), and if he didn't lower his weapon out of the clerks face in about 2 seconds or so I'd take him out. Then to calm the patrons of the sound of the shot, I'd say loudly "Oh my god, he was going to shoot the clerk, is everyone OK?" "someone call the police..."

Lotsa good replies. Lots to think about quickly.
 
my first thought:where's the other guy?
besides,
i'm not questioning wether or not killing the guy is lawfull,i just note an all too willingness to kill.excuses for playing God.
-i agree that hesitation is your enemy. you must morally uphold the safety of the general public. it is time to be a hero.-
i say,take cover and assess the situation. if/when the money is had and the criminal is turning to flee,then give him a choice. if the situation escalates before hand,you have to shoot.
i think we all know the rules of intervention,so i won't bother with the play by play.
 
Folks,

There are too many factors to say what you would do one way or the other. Many of the leading defense experts say do nothing; be a good witness.

Sorry, but most of us are good shots, not great, though as men we tell ourselves we are. I am SRT qualified, Executive Protection qualified, and I am an agent with the Army's CID, but I can't say that I would start putting rounds downrange.

Are you sure that once you shoot, he is not going to get a shot or shots off? I saw the two to com, one to the head post, and whatever. I've seen a lot of federal agents shoot, and I'm not very confident that many of them could make the shot under stress.

And do you ever throw rounds at the range? For most of us the answer is probably. Even if it's every once in a while. Are you sure you won't miss and spark a gunfight, which possible kills the person you were saving or even yourself. Gunfighters miss all the time. And I'm talking about cops, who generally have more training than a lot of the people on this post. The question is: how good are you? Most people I know are not very good at appraising their own shooting skill.

Law is also a critical factor, too. If I'm not mistaken, Florida requires you to retreat as long as there is an avenue of escape, but Alabama lets you whack a car-jacker.

Mr. Capital Punishment,

If you ever shoot someone pray that no one associates your name with that post. We shoot to stop. Period! The army, of which I am a member, shoots to kill (actually wound, but that's some theoretical crap about it taking two soldiers to care for a wounded one). So you put one in the BG's brain bucket and you had better be prepared to articulate why you did it. If you come across as I'm ready to kill any bad guy stupid enough to cross my path, the defense, media, and media influenced prosecutor is going to have a field day.

"Mr. Punishment, is it not true that you didn't really need to fire that head shot; that you were simply looking to kill some one?

No? Well did you not one post a message where you stated that you would be happy to remove someone from the 'gene pool.'"

It's downhill from there. It doesn't matter if what you did was right or wrong, but how it is perceived.

There is no easy answer. In some situations, you may shoot based on nothing more than things which you can't articulate, a feeling, a premonition. In others, you may sense that there is no need to shoot. That the criminal is merely posturing. I can't be sure and neither can anyone here.

Regards to all,
Chuck Ames

He who knows neither himself nor his enemy is a fool, and will meet defeat in every battle.
~Sun Tzu
 
I am NOT a police officer.

Starting a gunfight in a restaurant over a few dollars is s bad idea.

I would get the 10 people out the back door, and call 911 on my cell phone.


Or I could call in a B-52 strike on my space command radio.:rolleyes:

You folks who would take em out with a head shot need to stop watching movies and get a clue. Other wise you will end up dead, or in a cell with Buba.
 
Valid responses!
My choice:
A. Get the other ten people outside for safety.
B. Cover the BG for them.
C. Call 911.
D. Continue armed monitoring of the situation, shoot if need be to
save the clerk.
E. Secure your weapon as soon as the cops pull up.
 
Leave the area. Call the cops. Your job as a citizen is to report crime, not stop it--unless you are the one being assaulted or know the person being assaulted and are willing to intervene.

Survival is the goal here, guys, not trying to relive your favorite episode of [fill in name of your favorite '80's action TV show]. If it doesn't play as well in reruns, how do you think it will play in court?
 
Master Blaster and others, I do agree that there is no reason in starting a gun fight over a few dollars of somebody else's money. And, I would definitely put the lives of my family and myself before those of complete strangers. I would not want to START a gunfight if I didn't have adequate cover.

However, it should be pointed out that the gunfight would never be over protecting somebody else's money. Contrary to very popular opinion, espeically by those who think compliance is the answer to getting out of crimes safely, once the bad guy produced a weapon and threatened the employee, robbery only becomes the minor goal of his actions and catalyst for putting him and the employee in the same situation. At that point, it IS a life and death situation. The bad guy has the means, opportunity, and ability, plus has expressed the will to kill the employee. Robbery is no longer consequential to the situation in terms of evaluating whether or not you should act.

Besides, how do you really know robbery is the intent? Like some other murders, maybe this is being staged to look like a robbery gone bad to hide the fact that somebody wanted the employee killed.

Also, even if it is just a robbery at that point, who is to say the bad guy won't still off the employee once he gets the money or won't turn and start blasting the crowd? For some reason, many people who are into compliance feel that a robbery is a form of contractual situation whereby the robber is obligated to let you live if you give what is requested. Sure, some robbers will then split, but in about 10-12% of the time, they go ahead and shoot people anyway and the people shot are not always the clerks, but may be other customers (the statistic is supposedly FBI data presented in one of the documentary detective shows on Discover or TLC). In at least two case I have seen from video tapes, the robber gets the goods, exits the store, then runs back in like he forgot something and what he forgot was to cap a couple of the folks in the store. After doing so, he then leaves again.

Once threats are made and a weapon produced, the situation really is no longer about robbery, is it?
 
If the place has recently been robbed 3 times without anyone getting shot, what makes you to think there will be shooting this time?
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Robbery, by definition, places the victim in fear for his life. Had I a clear shot, absent other data that could influence, shot would be taken.
 
Ironically this near exact scenario happned to my sister in law. She worked at Pizza Hut (Hit) and was robbed at gunpoint. He was yelling and waving a gun around, next thing she knows PD rolls up in the parking lot and the guys says "I'm busted" drops the gun and walks out with his hands up. Unknown to the employees a customer slipped out the door called the police and they arrived in time to catch the guy in the act.
No self deputized hand cannon action needed.
I say leave the society protection to the police or get deputized and trained to handle close combat situations.
CCW does not give you the right/permission to do the police's job.
You never know maybe the guy pointing the gun at the clerk is actually pointing his gun at a bad guy in the back and you shot him only to find out he was a off duty cop or even better you shoot the guy and someone in the restaurant shoots you.
 
Walk up to the BG and say, while pointing a finger at the floor: "Careful! Don't slip on the anchovy." When he looks down in confusion, connect a right hook to his jaw.

Alternative outcome: The expression "You need it like you need a hole in the head" suddenly loses its colloquial appeal.

:rolleyes: :D



Chris...

To protect my life. Not anyone else's.
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Is that how much other people's lives are worth to you? Have a heart, dude!

I would first seek cover; then, from behind it, I'd instruct BG in a loud voice to drop his weapon. If he didn't, I'd drop him.

Look at it on the bright side. Even if you DID get canned (and who says you will?) you're looking at a lifetime supply of free pizza, delivered directly to you cell; compliments of the house. :p
 
Is that how much other people's lives are worth to you?
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Pretty much. Not to say that I don't value the lives of strangers, I just value their lives a lot less than I value mine.

Have a heart, dude!
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I have one, it's sitting on my mantlepiece in a jar even as we speak. ;) The trick is not let one's heart override one's brain. Seriously, are you truly willing to risk your life, your freedom, and the twenty to fifty thousand dollars it will cost you to defend yourself against an automatic homicide charge, all for a total stranger? If you are, well, okay. Just be aware of what is at stake.

I would first seek cover; then, from behind it, I'd instruct BG in a loud voice to drop his weapon. If he didn't, I'd drop him.
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Please don't do this; it's an excellent way to get the cashier or yourself shot. If the BG has a gun out, and you're determined to intervene, don't waste time with a verbal challenge.

Look at it on the bright side. Even if you DID get canned (and who says you will?) you're looking at a lifetime supply of free pizza, delivered directly to you cell; compliments of the house.
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Yeah, you might be able to trade the pizza to your cellmate to maintain the sanctity of your tight little booty! ;)

- Chris
 
Think of the person behind the cash register as your beloved son or daughter. Now, tell me what you would do. Would you really rely on the mercy of some guy (who may be a gang member, strung out on crack or other drug, etc) who is holding a gun pointed at your child?

I practice and carry mainly in order to protect my loved ones if a need ever arises that requires a lethal response. In a scenario like the one described, the person behind the cash register becomes my loved one (at least for that instant).
 
Now lets see...

Statistics say that one in four (25%) of cooperating victims are injured in the US.

By pointing the gun, the BG has actually said that he is not willing to shoot the clerk (yet). If he wanted to shoot somebody, he would have done so straight away. Maybe he just doesn't want to find out how to open the cash drawer (there have been clerks killed by nervous robbers because they forgot how to open the register - most now have a special "no sale" type key).

Move to cover, asess the situation. Has anybody else noticed? Is anybody suspiciously watching the robbery? Any other BGs (they do tend to move in packs)? Does anybody look likely to start screaming when you produce your piece? Or make them aware of the robbery, for that matter?

Attempting to shoot the BG comes only after I am behind cover and reasonably sure of the shot and what is beyond.

If there is some shooting, I would not follow a BG outside the shop. And I would be sure to make the 911 call myself and give a good description of myself to avoid getting shot by the responding officer(s).
 
No self deputized hand cannon action needed.
I say leave the society protection to the police or get deputized and trained to handle close combat situations.
CCW does not give you the right/permission to do the police's job.
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Actually, the Supreme Court has ruled it is not the responsibility of the police to prevent crime, just to investigate it. The POLICE are not trained to handle "close combat situations"*. By definition, "combat" is reserved for the armed forces, and thinking you have any clue about CQB/MOUT after cursory training for a PD is a good route to a purty pine box.

*With the possible exception of some SWAT/SRT-type units, and the Constitutionality and advisability of what is essentially pure combat training to these "peace officers" is another debate altogether.
 
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