Rudy Guiliani ahead in Republican nomination race

had it not been for Perot
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Whole nother story here but Pe-rot did what he did for a large part for personel reasons so Bush would lose. IMHO


terrific arguments there Wa, FF, and Samoand but I do tend to agree with WA in that a vote for a loser doesn't help. Do what ya can with what you have.
 
Wildalaska

I'm puzzled... How exactly do you you "WORK to INFLUENCE your party to meet your ideas"? And why not just use the same rational to just vote for Hillary if you believe that preaching works? Missionary expeditions have rarely succeeded even with simple-minded islanders, do you honestly believe that it might work with a highly complicated politician who has seen it all and just got his way doing exactly what he was doing? Polls and opinions don't mean much to people who are about business, money does. Politics is business for politicians, and your vote is the only currency that they acknowledge, and, speaking of INFLUENCE, really the only influence that you have the leverage to impose.

Regarding who's right... I humbly believe that history have already spoken on this one.


Douglas Adams provided a great illustration to that, btw, in this excerpt from "So Long and Thanks for All the Fish". Enjoy. Got to love the last sentence.
"I come in peace," it said, adding after a long moment of further grinding, "take me to your Lizard."

"It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."
"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"
"No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford. "It is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in."
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Wildalaska

"PS...he is an uncorrupitble former prosecuter who raised NYC from the ashes. He is the MOST QUALIFIED of any candidate out there right now"
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Wild, it's funny how you never get around to responding to my post below about Rudy.......


New York City Sues Gun Industry
By Mayor Rudy Giuliani

"On June 20th, I was pleased to announce that the City of New York filed a lawsuit against two dozen major gun manufacturers and distributors. This is an industry which profits from the suffering of innocent people. The lawsuit is intended to end the free pass that the gun industry has enjoyed for a very long time, which has resulted in too many avoidable deaths."

"More than 30,000 Americans each year - including 4,200 children - die because of gun violence. In addition, the city has found evidence of advertisements by gun manufacturers that claim their guns don't show fingerprints. This feature serves no purpose unless the user is intending to use the weapon for illegal purposes."

"It is our hope that this suit will result in substantial financial awards to the City for the many ways in which illegal practices and illegal guns harm New Yorkers; including the $17 million dollars each year that are spent by the City's Health and Hospitals Corporation treating gun-shot wounds."
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One of the major goals of the suit was to push for "safer" guns, with such features as trigger locks and "personalization" measures that allow only authorized persons to fire the weapon, such as the internal lock on S&W products.
 
A Rudy candidacy is a guarantee of a Hillary presidency. Most conservatives will simply stay home, while Rudy's fellow leftists will vote for Hillary. The only shot the Repubs have against Hillary is a legitimate conservative who is willing to take solid stands even at the expense of allienating the fence-sitters, or Condoleeza Rice specifically to play the race/gender card. Any moderate, luke-warm, establishment white male is going to lose, ESPECIALLY a slimy lefty-in-disguise like Rudy.

Personally, if he's the choice I'll vote in the local and state elections and leave the presidential ballot blank. Just not worth my time to vote when neither candidate is any different from the other, nor represents anything worth voting for. At that point, I suppose the best we can hope for is that Hillary will push things over the edge at long last and we can wrap this up. Either with some sort of revolt, violent or not, or a final recognition that too many Americans have simply stopped being responsible and a resultant slide into European style socialism..
 
Personally, if he's the choice I'll vote in the local and state elections and leave the presidential ballot blank. Just not worth my time to vote when neither candidate is any different from the other, nor represents anything worth voting for. At that point, I suppose the best we can hope for is that Hillary will push things over the edge at long last and we can wrap this up. Either with some sort of revolt, violent or not, or a final recognition that too many Americans have simply stopped being responsible and a resultant slide into European style socialism..
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Are your state and local elections held on a different day than your federal? Because if they aren't, then the amount of time it takes to check a box is pretty much zero, no?

I'd think you'd at least consider taking a second to vote third-part or write-in. I mean, you're already there and all. Also, while both candidates in a theoretical Clinton vs. Guiliani match-up might be bad, in any given election there is generally a candidate who is worse.

Though what I'd like to see is a "none of the above" box, just so that people could actively choose neither in a way that's counted. Even better if high levels of NOTA voting had actual consequences of some kind.
 
One of the major goals of the suit was to push for "safer" guns, with such features as trigger locks and "personalization" measures that allow only authorized persons to fire the weapon, such as the internal lock on S&W products.
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Do you really want an exposition of tort law? Do you feel that one could NOT ever show responsibility on the part of a manufacturer or distributor for gun violence? If not, why does the Immunity statute itself recognize a cause of action?

Caveat..its been a long time since I read the complaint in that case.

I'm puzzled... How exactly do you you "WORK to INFLUENCE your party to meet your ideas"?
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You're kidding right? How do you think party platforms evolve? Easy...INVOLVED citizens who work to have their ideas accepted.....

Politics is business for politicians, and your vote is the only currency that they acknowledge, and, speaking of INFLUENCE, really the only influence that you have the leverage to impose.
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BS....have you ever been involved in a campaign or party politics? You think that the politicos just make this crap up as they go along? Or are their positions coming from a coterie of hard core involved folks who want to see their ideas come to fruition...

Most conservatives will simply stay home, while Rudy's fellow leftists will vote for Hillary.
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Guess your conservatives are different thatn mine then...but then again...I dont let an election rise or fall on one issue.....

Better the devil I know and can talk to rather than the devil I dont and who wont listen.

WildyawanthillarythenstayhomeyadontworkandvoteAlaska
 
in any given election there is generally a candidate who is worse
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Vote for the less of two evils? Gosh, how many presidential elections in a row will this be.. It has been this way for me at least several in a row...sad.
Maybe FF has something there.
 
Wildalaska

"Do you really want an exposition of tort law? Do you feel that one could NOT ever show responsibility on the part of a manufacturer or distributor for gun violence? If not, why does the Immunity statute itself recognize a cause of action?"
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Nice bob-and-weave..........but not unexpected.
 
Vote for the less of two evils? Gosh, how many presidential elections in a row will this be.. It has been this way for me at least several in a row...sad.
Maybe FF has something there.
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Hey, there is time before election day to work with your party, campaign for your preferred candidate during the primaries, etc. There is time between elections to try and influence your party to change their stances. Or even work with our current lawmakers and try to institute election reform to encourage more choices.

But come that Tuesday, you're faced with a choice. In our current system, that choice is between two candidates. Regardless of your reasoning (I'm voting "for" A, voting "against" B, choosing the lesser of two evils, voting my conscience [for a person who will not win], whatever) your choice is directly affecting who will take office. As is your choice to stay home, if that's what you go with.

Yeah, I hate voting lesser of two evils, too. But that's the way the world works sometimes, and not just in elections. There are times in life where you have to choose between "crappy" or "crappier," and grownups don't try to choose "ponies" because they like ponies.
 
Wildalaska

......................
You're kidding right? How do you think party platforms evolve? Easy...INVOLVED citizens who work to have their ideas accepted.....
......................
BS....have you ever been involved in a campaign or party politics? You think that the politicos just make this crap up as they go along? Or are their positions coming from a coterie of hard core involved folks who want to see their ideas come to fruition...
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that's a very narrow view, hope you don't mind me saying so. "INVOLVED citizen" may have illusions of making changes, as long as vector of their involvement happens to coincide with that of someone in power (and they get picked up as a right tool for the right job), or as long as they as a group are founded by someone in power.

Politics have long turned into exact science based on sociology and statistics (I at some point took great interest in both). If you have any doubts to that effect, just look back at the margin that defined presidency in 2000. Science leaves very little room to preaching, your "INVOLVEMENT" will do nada if it contradicts their notion of where popular vote is heading. And the only way to let them know that is by voting where your heart really is, even if your vote goes to a certain loser.
 
Hey, there is time before election day to work with your party, campaign for your preferred candidate
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I have even been considering changing which party I am registered with back to what I was registered as at your age to try and affect what little I can the worse of two evils in that party. Then once past the primary I can vote for whom I choose anyhows ;)
 
Politics have long turned into exact science based on sociology and statistics (I at some point took great interest in both). If you have any doubts to that effect, just look back at the margin that defined presidency in 2000. Science leaves very little room to preaching, your "INVOLVEMENT" will do nada if it contradicts their notion of where popular vote is heading. And the only way to let them know that is by voting where your heart really is, even if your vote goes to a certain loser.
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Stop making excuses for inaction.

Go join your local republican committee. Work your ass off. get accepted as a reasonable and rational human being with intelligent and mainstream ideas. Show yourself willing to negotiate and compromise. Work to influence your fellow partyites. get promoted to Sate republican committees, do the same as before. Hook on to a candidate. Work with him, etc etc etc

See what happens.

Science it may be, but folks evolve the policies, not just science.

Thats why "moderates" like Rudy float to the top of the pile, and why narrow minded fringers like Ron Paul dont.



WildbythewayifthereisarepublicanmorequalifiedANDelectablethanrudyletmeknowAlaska
 
Thats why "moderates" like Rudy float to the top of the pile, and why narrow minded fringers like Ron Paul dont.
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Boy did you hit the nail on the head with that, or as in my simple terms have said "they learn to play the game or they don't".
 
Wildalaska

You are switching to something irrelevant (yet related by association). Being (in)active is a completely different issue from effective voting strategy. One is not a substitute for the other. I'm fairly certain that we haven't met and therefore not sure where this acquisition of inactivity is coming from, be it true or not. Hope you are not trying to replace logic with rhetorics.

If there was anything important in that long word please repeat it with spaces. I consciously cut off intake of info that is intentionally made hard to understand, be it to emphasize a personal style or to draw attention. This is not in any way a suggestion to change your style, it's just the way I am.
 
If there was anything important in that long word please repeat it with spaces. I consciously cut off intake of info that is intentionally made hard to understand, be it to emphasize a personal style or to draw attention. This is not in any way a suggestion to change your style, it's just the way I am.
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Then ya miss the good stuff :)

WildttfnofftoshowAlaska
 
Are your state and local elections held on a different day than your federal? Because if they aren't, then the amount of time it takes to check a box is pretty much zero, no?
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Exactly my point.

I'd think you'd at least consider taking a second to vote third-part or write-in. I mean, you're already there and all. Also, while both candidates in a theoretical Clinton vs. Guiliani match-up might be bad, in any given election there is generally a candidate who is worse.
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Both are anti-gun, pro-UN, pro-abortion, tax and spend leftists. There is no meaningful difference. EVEN if we argue electing a POTUS different from the party controlling CONgress as an automatic positive, it loses effectiveness when the differences are this minute. Meanwhile, Third Parties and such are hopeless. The only way to make a difference there would be to spend a couple decades building one from the ground up and concentrating on local races first. Problem is, we don't have a couple decades and there aren't enough people interested anyway. I tried.

Though what I'd like to see is a "none of the above" box, just so that people could actively choose neither in a way that's counted. Even better if high levels of NOTA voting had actual consequences of some kind.
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This I could go for, along with creating another branch of government whose sole job is to repeal old legislation.
 
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