Put the beast to bed (.45 vs .357 .... bonus .45 vs .40)
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...and since the .357 is 'the hammer of thor', I'll sell you many of them at extremely high prices. After all they(.357) is the best. 
People who say a 9mm = .357 either don't own, or can't navigate a reloading manual.
No dig on 9mm, if you like it I'm tickled to death for you. But saying it is what it isn't is just silly.
Same with any caliber. They are what they are.
My CCW contender, in .338 webley-vickers improved nitro mag, firing AP, will penetrate the most supreme really, really dense, and solid too, steel.
I once defeated the frontal armor of an Abrams, took three shots tho. The CIA confistated the pistol, but I've secretly build it's evil twin.
J
No dig on 9mm, if you like it I'm tickled to death for you. But saying it is what it isn't is just silly.
Same with any caliber. They are what they are.
My CCW contender, in .338 webley-vickers improved nitro mag, firing AP, will penetrate the most supreme really, really dense, and solid too, steel.
I once defeated the frontal armor of an Abrams, took three shots tho. The CIA confistated the pistol, but I've secretly build it's evil twin.
J
I'd like that. I'd have an opportunity to expound on steel alloys and their individual characteristics.
This brings back the memory of an episode of miami vice. Crocket was going to meet some guy in the dunes for a coke buy, the guy may have been ted nugent.
Crocket put a sheet of 440 C steel in his briefcase, and successfully bounced a .44 magnum out of a desert eagle back at the bad guy.
The memory may not be entirely accurate, I was cracking up at the time, and didn't hear a lot of the dialog.
I got my numbers from BBTI. You mentioned a 3" sp-01 in OP not a 6 " and then said you don't have a 9 because you see no use in the under performing round. Of course the magnum pulls ahead at longer barrel lengths. I was under the impression you thought the sp-01 357 was better than the .45 and 9mm
No need to be condescending. I have multiple .357 smiths and a taurus 605. I am very familiar with the ballistics and muzzle blast. That impressive muzzle blast is all waste from handgun barrels. Which is why 357 and 9 are near identical at 3" and 4" respectively.
Almost seems contradictory but, i suppose its not. I apologize if I misunderstood your posts.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Hey, everyone, your guns don't give a damn how intelligent you are (or are not)!
They only want to be fed and shot regularly.
Keep the discussion on topic.
They only want to be fed and shot regularly.
Keep the discussion on topic.
Creek Henry
New member
The .45 has never been effective against armor of any kind. The bullet SD is not good for that. They tend to bounce of windshields more than fast, narrow bullets also. This is just physics. The FBI's quest for a better bullet moved them to the 9 because they worked better against early vests (so SF mag insisted when I was in college).
But, against living tissue, big, heavy, relatively slow bullets work well. We had a doctor in one CHL class I was in who had pulled bullets out of people's brains. He said he's pried out 9mm, 357, 22, etc. The instructor asked him about the 45acp and the Doc replied, "Never needed to, all DOA". But, Evan Marshall's stats show the 45 is less likely to penetrate the skull and 2% more likely to just bounce off of it than the 9 is.
I'll say this though, the last 2 times I qualified I outshot most of the poeple there and everyone that had a 40S&W. It was all about recoil. By the time the target was 25 yards and 40 rounds had been spent, they all were shooting pretty poorly. Not so with my 9 (and double hearing protection that really helps on closed ranges). The guy that outshot us all last time had a HK 45; in his hands, it was a laserbeam deathray.
So, for the 'average' shooter that puts < 50 rounds through their gun every year, the 9 probably has an advantage. If I were a trained LEO, I'd get a 40. As a target shooter, the 45 is better. For CC, a small 9 is perfect.
Also, the 357 is dim shadow of the 38 Super
Let's argue about THAT for a while!!
But, against living tissue, big, heavy, relatively slow bullets work well. We had a doctor in one CHL class I was in who had pulled bullets out of people's brains. He said he's pried out 9mm, 357, 22, etc. The instructor asked him about the 45acp and the Doc replied, "Never needed to, all DOA". But, Evan Marshall's stats show the 45 is less likely to penetrate the skull and 2% more likely to just bounce off of it than the 9 is.
I'll say this though, the last 2 times I qualified I outshot most of the poeple there and everyone that had a 40S&W. It was all about recoil. By the time the target was 25 yards and 40 rounds had been spent, they all were shooting pretty poorly. Not so with my 9 (and double hearing protection that really helps on closed ranges). The guy that outshot us all last time had a HK 45; in his hands, it was a laserbeam deathray.
So, for the 'average' shooter that puts < 50 rounds through their gun every year, the 9 probably has an advantage. If I were a trained LEO, I'd get a 40. As a target shooter, the 45 is better. For CC, a small 9 is perfect.
Also, the 357 is dim shadow of the 38 Super
Let's argue about THAT for a while!!The issue here is that mild steel is not armor plate.
At close ranges (closer than is usually safe for recreational shooting) many handgun rounds will penetrate mild steel up to 1/8". Once you harden it into armor plate steel, however, few handguns will reliably penetrate it.
But the measure of a firearm's effectiveness for self-defense cannot be measured by its ability to penetrate sheet or plate metals. A high speed 124 grain FMJ 9mm bullet may easily defeat sheet steel, but that same round is more than likely going to make a simple, unimpressive hole through living tissue.
Modern designs for expanding bullets do quite a good job of leveling the playing field in terms of performance. The difference between a hit with a 9mm JHP and a .45 ACP JHP of the same design lies mostly in the final diameter of the expanded bullet and its associated wound track.
In terms of incapacitating an opponent, shot placement and penetration is much more important than expansion or caliber. We can view penetration as a measure of "work" to be done -- punching through bone, varying density tissues and fluids to reach a certain "adequate" depth. Efficiency can be measured as how much energy it takes to reach that adequate depth and still produce a large enough wound track to cause rapid pressure loss in the circulatory system.
At close ranges (closer than is usually safe for recreational shooting) many handgun rounds will penetrate mild steel up to 1/8". Once you harden it into armor plate steel, however, few handguns will reliably penetrate it.
But the measure of a firearm's effectiveness for self-defense cannot be measured by its ability to penetrate sheet or plate metals. A high speed 124 grain FMJ 9mm bullet may easily defeat sheet steel, but that same round is more than likely going to make a simple, unimpressive hole through living tissue.
Modern designs for expanding bullets do quite a good job of leveling the playing field in terms of performance. The difference between a hit with a 9mm JHP and a .45 ACP JHP of the same design lies mostly in the final diameter of the expanded bullet and its associated wound track.
In terms of incapacitating an opponent, shot placement and penetration is much more important than expansion or caliber. We can view penetration as a measure of "work" to be done -- punching through bone, varying density tissues and fluids to reach a certain "adequate" depth. Efficiency can be measured as how much energy it takes to reach that adequate depth and still produce a large enough wound track to cause rapid pressure loss in the circulatory system.
seeker_two
New member
If your Plan A involves taking out armored vehicles with a pistol, you really need a Plan B.....
Just FYI, you guys can check this at ay of the big sites, the .357 has a higher sectional density, and thus better potential for penetration than any other comon.y used sd round. A very solid fp jacketed lead 158 at full possible velocity will probably do Better than anything else on either body Armor or barricades
and figured it for incorrect verbiage (stopping power does not = firepower).Stevie-Ray
New member
I don't blame you! That is, of course, because you want to stop everyone behind your intended target as well, right? No?
Thanks for reminding me why I carry and have always carried .45 ACP.
dalegribble
New member
i wonder which has more knowdown power, a hardball thrown as hard as you can or a bowling ball thrown as hard as you can from 15 feet?
Sheikyourbootie
New member
Nobody has shot this thread yet?