Put the beast to bed (.45 vs .357 .... bonus .45 vs .40)

I have a few questions:

1) Being in the fabrication business for over 25 years, where can I buy some of this "very, very dense steel"???? I need some. Do they make a very, very, very dense version cause that might be a lot better?

2) Then, where can buy this "solid" steel? I've spent a lot over the decades on non-solid steel. I need some that's solid.

3) How many humans have you personaly shot?

4) What percentage of those humans were sporting a 1/16" solid steel very, very dense outer skin/covering?

5) I have a cutting torch, it will happily cut thru about 6" of "solid" "very, very dense" steel. Is it a mo better choice than say a .40????

Thank you for your time.

J
 
something that bears repeating.

The stove lid scene in the spaghetti western wasn't real, either.

a stove lid isn't steel, it's cast iron. the first hit that thing took would have shattered it.
 
Toppermost - Never owned a 9mm. Don't see the point. Almost every gun made in 9mm comes in an identically sized 40 s&w... and the extra 2-3-4 rounds you get doesn't make up for the loss of firepower IMO.
Click to expand...

.357 out of 3" is about 1250fps w/ 125gr
9mm out of 4" is about 1220 w/ 124gr

Why is .357mag the hammer of thor and 9mm just about worthless?
 
I'm of the persuasion that even a 20% change in velocity is pretty much meaningless in most cases, compared to the quality of the ammunition.

I'd prefer 1k fps out of a 38 spl +p with a good defensive bullet to 1,200 fps out of a 9mm with a tapered fmj of the same weight. Of course, lots of people will disagree with that. That's their prerogative.
 
1- thanks for posting the photos and info! I love random ballistic tests and comparisons, and learn something new every time I see one!
2- also, i love "vs" threads when applied to a theory or study. You made my day! Ballistics gel studdies are sooo booorrrring!
 
"a stove lid isn't steel, it's cast iron. the first hit that thing took would have shattered it."

Maybe, maybe not.

Those old soft lead bullets would deform pretty readily.

Depending on how thick the stove eye cover was and the particular composition, I could see it not being affected by one or more bullets.
 
.357 out of 3" is about 1250fps w/ 125gr
9mm out of 4" is about 1220 w/ 124gr

Why is .357mag the hammer of thor and 9mm just about worthless?
Click to expand...


This should end all wars on 357/vs 9mm :rolleyes::confused:
 
can't you guys just imagine a future when God himself steps down from the throne, hands us the divine ballistics bible with all known information in it?

He'll tells us "here are the facts, quit all this arguing, it's giving me headaches."

How many people will go right to their garage, neck down the .44 magnum to .17 caliber, and call it the "17 contentious" just so he'll have something that isn't in the book to argue about?

hey, has anyone ever tried that? :confused:
 
Been here since 2006 but don't post often unless a really classic thread comes along. This is one classic thread!! Haven't had some good laughs like this in awhile. Thanks all for the great replies.
og
 
arentol,

10mm MP5s are already in use by some special operation units and police forces so 10mm is a practical military and police caliber in some situations. I don't think a 10mm at 1400fps would be practical for all troops to carry as a standard issue firearm due to kick and size of the guns requirred.

In addition, 40 S&W is already found in a prolific number of potential handgun models with plentiful cheap ammo while 10mm is a limited production item with expensive ammo. A 40 slide and barrel will convert most 9mm frames to 40 S&W due to the length of the shorter round being the same as a 9mm round. The reason 9mm will probably remain the standard is due to it's role as a secondary weapon and the great cost of a new adoption from testing through purchase. It will not remain the standard because it is the best choice any more than 223 is better than the 6.8 or 7.62x32 for that matter. rc
 
rc, some good points. I am looking at this from a combat effectiveness perspective. From an MP carry perspective .40 S&W makes perfect sense. But what do you issue officers and medics so if they find themselves up close and personal with the enemy they have something at hand to defend themselves? Assuming the enemy is as likely as not to be behind light cover or have some kevlar on you want something as close to rifle-power as possible without the size of a rifle or carbine. For that job 10mm is considerably better than .40 S&W.

I don't really see the concern about recoil as being all that valid. They could easily go with a 135gr FMJ doing 1600fps for maximum penetration with less recoil (lighter round reduces recoil). Some troops might have slight issues with it at first, but that is easily fixed by proper training on how to manage recoil by holding the firearm correctly. Also, in the heat of battle I don't think most soldiers would be affected much by the recoil anyway. Stopping the enemy will be a far greater concern. Recoil that seems huge and unmanageable in training quickly becomes irrelevant when your life is on the line.

As to size... That is a non-issue. The military issued 1911's for decades, so clearly a 10mm 1911 wouldn't be a problem. Also there is the Glock 20, which is barely larger than the Glock 22/17. 10mm guns don't have to be much larger than .40 S&W or 9mm guns.

As to their being enough 10mm guns out there to chose from, that is a non-concern as well. If the military put the call out then there would be more. It would not take that much to adapt almost any .45ACP or .40S&W gun to 10mm if it meant getting a good shot at a fat government contract.

If the military adopted 10mm then the ammo would become more plentiful and eventually on par with .40 S&W. Also most training could be done with .40 S&W if they wanted anyway since most 10mm firearms can be converted to .40 S&W.

Don't get me wrong.... I know it is all a pipe dream, and .40 S&W is far more likely to be chosen some day than 10mm (while still being pretty unlikely right now). However, from the perspective of military conflict combat effectiveness I think 10mm is clearly superior, and that is why I don't see why someone recommend an ammo based on things like penetration ability and greater overall power wouldn't recommend 10mm before .40 S&W.

Also, if it is good enough for Colonial Marines it is good enough for me! :D
 
I know what I'm gonna do! After careful deliberation, I have come to the conclusion that I had best carry 1 of each caliber. That way, I can deal with every situation imaginable! People wearing 1/16" inch body armor, people hiding behind soft walls, hard walls, out in the open, rabid jackrabbits or grizzly bears! :eek: Did I miss anything? :( ;)
 
.357 out of 3" is about 1250fps w/ 125gr
9mm out of 4" is about 1220 w/ 124gr

Why is .357mag the hammer of thor and 9mm just about worthless?
Click to expand...

First off, I am not a round basher. I enjoy shooting just about anything. But the numbers you list here aren't quite accurate. A quick lookup in a reloading manual shows me typical 125 gr out of a 9mm will average between 1,050 to 1,150 fps(4" barrel). Over to the .357 page, the typical 125 gr goes between 1,350 - 1,450(also a 4" barrel). There is even one load going over 1,500. Out of my 6" revolver, I have chronographed my 158 gr bullets going over 1,500 fps.

I'm assuming by your post that perhaps you have never fired a 357. If you ever have the chance, fire some stout loads and then you will understand that compared to the 9mm, the 357 IS the Hammer of Thor(but also has some disadvantages). And of course there are many round that are the Hammer of Thor compared to the 357.

However the 9mm is certainly not a worthless round. It's a great round, and anyone who tells you otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about. Just keep in mind that there are tons of fantastic rounds and many people are extremely biased toward what they own, even though they may know little or nothing about the other rounds out there.

And my final thought, every round (as well as every gun) is a compromise, as there is no perfect caliber or gun. No matter what you shoot, there is another round/gun setup that will have advantages(in some area) over what you have. But it also goes the other way, your setup will have advantages over that other gun in some other area. There are tradeoffs to just about everything. So get out there and shoot and enjoy whatever it is you have.:)
 
Why is .357mag the hammer of thor and 9mm just about worthless?
Click to expand...

Years ago I did a little experiment with Federal's 9BPLE 115 grain +P+ 9mm JHP, and their 125 grain .357 Mag JHP. Test guns were a Beretta Centurion and a 3" Model 13 S&W. I shot both loads against two water-filled 100 oz. detergent jugs stacked together and backed by a large catalog. Distances were five and fifty yards and I managed center hits at both distances.

You literally could not have told the differences between any of the impacts at either distance- not by watching the splash, seeing how high the caps went in the air or by examining the jugs afterward. Dead heat.

Each platform has its advantages. We compromise as we see fit.
 
Ya'll are confusing me....

Now I don't know what to use, my 9's, 40 or 45. Or sell them all and buy a 357 or 357 sig barrel for my 40.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top