Put the beast to bed (.45 vs .357 .... bonus .45 vs .40)
- Thread starter toppermost
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orionengnr
New member
First off, get your definitions straight. "Firepower" refers to the number of rounds available.
Next, I don't believe that is 1/16" steel, and "very, very dense steel" is an undefined abstract.
I once shot a 4x4" piece of 1/2" plate steel at 100 yards with a .308, which penetrated it fully. At the same time, .223 barely put a dent in it, and I probably couldn't hit it with 12 ga buckshot at 1/4 that distance.
Does that mean that .223 and 12 gauge are useless?
Hardly.
I carry .45 acp almost exclusively and trust it implicitly. If I ever have to shoot someone dressed in 1/8" steel plate, I'll run instead, and see if Panzer Man can catch my old arse.
spanishjames
New member
So I guess everyone should stop posting random test information that involves shooting at water jugs, phone books, wet phone books, gelatin, 2X4's, and steel, since bad guys aren't made of any of those things.
And that everyone is free to draw their own conclusions, and shoot whatever makes them happy.
And that everyone is free to draw their own conclusions, and shoot whatever makes them happy.
You keep your 5 rnds of .357 and I will stick with my 11 rnds of .45acp.
I will also keep my other advantages:
A smaller gun that is easier to conceal.
A gun that only weighs more because of the extra 6 rounds it is carrying.
Larger wound channel.
An extra inch of barrel in a gun that is 1" shorter.
Roughly the same muzzle energy as your .357 thanks to that longer barrel and +P ammo.
I will also keep my other advantages:
A smaller gun that is easier to conceal.
A gun that only weighs more because of the extra 6 rounds it is carrying.
Larger wound channel.
An extra inch of barrel in a gun that is 1" shorter.
Roughly the same muzzle energy as your .357 thanks to that longer barrel and +P ammo.
well its pretty to see but issues.
-whats actual type of steel? so much difference its not funny
-heat treating? tested hardness?
-actual velocity?
454 or 445 or 44 magnum with an fmj would be lots more fun.
also, realize they make better bullets for this penetration thing. just look online. sadly, alot of them are illegal to own for a handgun.
but on a nice note, a 303 30-06, k98, 91-30 would have blown all the way through out to crap at least 300 yards.
-whats actual type of steel? so much difference its not funny
-heat treating? tested hardness?
-actual velocity?
454 or 445 or 44 magnum with an fmj would be lots more fun.
also, realize they make better bullets for this penetration thing. just look online. sadly, alot of them are illegal to own for a handgun.
but on a nice note, a 303 30-06, k98, 91-30 would have blown all the way through out to crap at least 300 yards.
Okay guys, at least Toppermost gets an "E" for effort.
For what it's worth, a couple of years ago, a friend and I tested out his surplus Soviet-era CZ-52 pistol in 7.62x25 Tokarev. He wanted three steel plates at 30 yards and used some 1/4" cold rolled steel plate from his workshop. He fired double taps at them and over the bark of the CZ we heard a very flat *plunk* noise. Upon inspection that little 30 cal punched clean through. In fact, with two plates separated by about 2 feet, it blew through one and cratered the 2nd. Color me duly impressed.
But it's a lousy SD round. Overpenetration and high velocity do not make friends with neighbors or police.
I know my .41 Magnum would slice through your sample plate like cardboard. In fact, previous tests show it will slice through the rear bumper of a '59 Mercury, blow through the lower trunk, exit into the wheelwell with enough energy splatter itself against the empty tire rim.
One of my favorite carry guns is a 2.125" S&W Model 649 .357 Magnum. I carry it with Speer Gold Dots or similar .38 +P ammo for anti-personnel encounters. I have confidence that 1-3 shots will end the argument. However, if everything goes down the toilet, one of the speed loaders carries .357 Magnum 145gr Silvertips for penetration and their effectiveness at longer range.
For what it's worth, a couple of years ago, a friend and I tested out his surplus Soviet-era CZ-52 pistol in 7.62x25 Tokarev. He wanted three steel plates at 30 yards and used some 1/4" cold rolled steel plate from his workshop. He fired double taps at them and over the bark of the CZ we heard a very flat *plunk* noise. Upon inspection that little 30 cal punched clean through. In fact, with two plates separated by about 2 feet, it blew through one and cratered the 2nd. Color me duly impressed.
But it's a lousy SD round. Overpenetration and high velocity do not make friends with neighbors or police.
I know my .41 Magnum would slice through your sample plate like cardboard. In fact, previous tests show it will slice through the rear bumper of a '59 Mercury, blow through the lower trunk, exit into the wheelwell with enough energy splatter itself against the empty tire rim.
One of my favorite carry guns is a 2.125" S&W Model 649 .357 Magnum. I carry it with Speer Gold Dots or similar .38 +P ammo for anti-personnel encounters. I have confidence that 1-3 shots will end the argument. However, if everything goes down the toilet, one of the speed loaders carries .357 Magnum 145gr Silvertips for penetration and their effectiveness at longer range.
Cheapshooter
New member
I bet you don't always drink beer, but when you do you prefer Dos Equis!
Gotta call you on that one. The .45 is in no way "roughly the same" as the .357 when it comes to muzzle energy.
The hottest .45 ACP round I could find develops 543 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=12
Most 125 gr .357 loads are in the 700 ft-lbs range, and some of the really hot ones are over 800 ft-lbs of energy.
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=20
We can talk about how effective these rounds are, but when it comes to muzzle energy the .45 is not even in the same ballpark as the .357. If you want a auto cartridge comparable to the .357 in energy, its time to start talking 10mm.
Exactly MLeake!
Falcon642, you missed Cor Bon 165 JHP +P, which is listed at 573ft/lbs. Also:
You can't just read manufacturers numbers and compare them. They may have used different length barrels for testing, making it an invalid comparison. You have to find actual tests with barrels of the same length, and preferably as many guns as possible since each one will act a littler differently. However, even that is somewhat irrelevant because:
With almost no exceptions, Revolvers of a given barrel length are 1-2" longer than a Semi-Auto of the same barrel length. Since overall gun length pays a significant role in carry and concealment it is actually most appropriate to normalize for overall length when comparing the power of a Semi to that of a Revolver.
In this case the .357 revolver is 8" long with a 3" barrel. Lets compare that to the XD Compact which is 8.3" long with 5" barrel.
BBTI tables:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html
Top energy from all .357 tested from a 3" barrel = 479ft/lbs from Cor Bon 125 DPX
Top energy from all .45acp +P tested from a 5" barrel = 578ft/lbs from Cor Bon 165 JHP +P. (Which also gets 504 from a 3" barrel!)
Obviously BBTI is not comprehensive, and there is .357 ammo out there, like the Buffalo Bore (BB) you mentioned, that (according to the manufacturer) pushes as high as 680ft/lbs from a 3" barrel. However, I don't think that detracts much from my point for a few reasons:
When you look at common store-bought ammo, Cor Bon +P JHP is carried almost everywhere while .357 BB, and similarly hot loads, are pretty rare.
BB costs a heck of a lot more too.
Relatively few people carry that hot for Personal Defense in a .357 anyway, which is why BB makes a series of .357 personal defense loads that are rated at about 450ft/lbs energy with low recoil and flash.
Aside from the one that weighs 125gr those heavy loads from BB are primarily intended for hunting or other special applications.
The 125gr load from BB, which is the one focused most towards personal defense use, tested at 605ft/lbs from a 3" barrel, which I would say is close enough to 578 to put it in the "roughly the same" range.
I was addressing the OP.
Putting all that together it is fair for me to assume that the majority of people carrying .357 for personal defense, including the OP, are using loads that have at best only a tad bit more muzzle energy from a 3" barrel than I am getting from a 4" barrel with my Cor Bon .45acp +P ammo.
Also, my EDC is a 10mm with 165gr ammo at about 735ft/lbs. However, I feel completely confident and safe when carrying my .45 as well.
Falcon642, you missed Cor Bon 165 JHP +P, which is listed at 573ft/lbs. Also:
You can't just read manufacturers numbers and compare them. They may have used different length barrels for testing, making it an invalid comparison. You have to find actual tests with barrels of the same length, and preferably as many guns as possible since each one will act a littler differently. However, even that is somewhat irrelevant because:
With almost no exceptions, Revolvers of a given barrel length are 1-2" longer than a Semi-Auto of the same barrel length. Since overall gun length pays a significant role in carry and concealment it is actually most appropriate to normalize for overall length when comparing the power of a Semi to that of a Revolver.
In this case the .357 revolver is 8" long with a 3" barrel. Lets compare that to the XD Compact which is 8.3" long with 5" barrel.
BBTI tables:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html
Top energy from all .357 tested from a 3" barrel = 479ft/lbs from Cor Bon 125 DPX
Top energy from all .45acp +P tested from a 5" barrel = 578ft/lbs from Cor Bon 165 JHP +P. (Which also gets 504 from a 3" barrel!)
Obviously BBTI is not comprehensive, and there is .357 ammo out there, like the Buffalo Bore (BB) you mentioned, that (according to the manufacturer) pushes as high as 680ft/lbs from a 3" barrel. However, I don't think that detracts much from my point for a few reasons:
When you look at common store-bought ammo, Cor Bon +P JHP is carried almost everywhere while .357 BB, and similarly hot loads, are pretty rare.
BB costs a heck of a lot more too.
Relatively few people carry that hot for Personal Defense in a .357 anyway, which is why BB makes a series of .357 personal defense loads that are rated at about 450ft/lbs energy with low recoil and flash.
Aside from the one that weighs 125gr those heavy loads from BB are primarily intended for hunting or other special applications.
The 125gr load from BB, which is the one focused most towards personal defense use, tested at 605ft/lbs from a 3" barrel, which I would say is close enough to 578 to put it in the "roughly the same" range.
I was addressing the OP.
Putting all that together it is fair for me to assume that the majority of people carrying .357 for personal defense, including the OP, are using loads that have at best only a tad bit more muzzle energy from a 3" barrel than I am getting from a 4" barrel with my Cor Bon .45acp +P ammo.
Also, my EDC is a 10mm with 165gr ammo at about 735ft/lbs. However, I feel completely confident and safe when carrying my .45 as well.
zincwarrior
New member
I'll remember this if I am ever attacked by a steel plate. 
zincwarrior
New member
No no, you have to be prepared for zombies all the time, they could leap out at any moment! I have a blow torch for Terminators.
Yep, steel plate is a natural enemy...
Threads like this are pointless other than to get people riled up. They are all good rounds. Pick what you like and pay no attention to people who tell you the one you have is no good. For me, I own all 3 of them, well all 4 if you include the 9mm that got sprinkled into the thread. I like them all.
HAHAHAHAHA PANZER MAN! IM DYING FROM LAUGHTER OVER HERE! But on a serious note 9mil .40sw .45acp and .357mag are all spectacular. The real thing here is though if it punchs holes in 1/16 plate steel..... bones and flesh are no match and you get way over penetration. Even .45 hollows will go through a body and strike persons on the other side.... And if i wanted a 1911 in .45 calibur theres always the .45 winmag. im sure that would punch through it but it isnt necessary. Good effort for the test but once again my .45 handloaded semi wad cutter will do its work at 8 +1 capacity and nice 5 pound pull and nice enlarged sights.
Cheapshooter
New member
toppermost gets an A for effort, but unfortunately an F for thread title, and composition. I'm still trying to envision him stuffing 7 357 rounds in one chamber.
Lots more than 1/16" of who knows what steel to the comparison.
Lots more than 1/16" of who knows what steel to the comparison.