Peggy Noonan's got it right!!!

^ If so, then what? What do we do? Doing nothing is taking McCain OR the alternatives. There has to be something to do that is more than nothing.
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The truth of the last statement depends on what you mean by it. If you mean there still has to be something to do more than nothing in order to have a fully satisfactory president in the next term, the statement is untrue. The next president will be McCain, Clinton or BHO. Nothing you do will change that.

Your only choice is which it will be. Fail to vote against the dem effectively, and you increase their chances of taking the office.

If one's own personal statement of protest is more important the the result of this election, then one can in good conscience cast a boutique vote that detracts from McCain's tally and gives the dems greater relative strength.

I do note there are many places where a 100,000 votes one way or another don't matter, and I think that kind of personal statement voting is more rational in those places.

If you mean that issue advocacy can continue, I agree. Conservatives made an error of judgment in the early 1970s by muting their criticisms of Nixon because Nixon was beseiged by the left. Some rightward preassure might have helped Nixon.

Liberals and democrats generally let their emotions dictate their beliefs.
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And in this election, quite a few conservatives are permitting their decision to be driven by a puerile anger, an emotion.

I just don't think that is logical. We wouldn't choose "second best" in hardly any other aspect of our own lives, yet some of us are willing to nominate the "2nd best" candidate to the most powerful office of the world. That just doesn't make sense to me.
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It may not make sense because the analysis is disjointed. The nomination fight is over. Screwing up a general election so the fourth best wins over the second best is perverse.

If you like him, if he seems to support your views more than the other candidates, then you should vote for him. Voting for a candidate you agree with less because you don't think your favorite candidate can win only rewards the mediocre candidate.
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A federal election is not a reward for excellence, it is a method for choosing the exec. You will two and only two choices of people to hold that office. Refusing to make a choice is also a choice of a kind.

My liking Bob Barr should not leave blinkered as to how to vote; that would allow an emotion to dictate the decision. One would optimally make a choice in voting on who it will put in the office.
 
zukiphile
My liking Bob Barr should not leave blinkered as to how to vote; that would allow an emotion to dictate the decision.
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An emotion? You call voting for the best candidate who most closely agrees with you "an emotional decision"? What emotion is it that dictates that we vote for an inferior candidate (McCain.. ideologically speaking) in the name of getting him elected?
 
You miss the point of elections

My liking Bob Barr should not leave blinkered as to how to vote; that would allow an emotion to dictate the decision.
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An emotion? You call voting for the best candidate who most closely agrees with you "an emotional decision"? What emotion is it that dictates that we vote for an inferior candidate (McCain.. ideologically speaking) in the name of getting him elected?
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None but the desire to deprive the office from a greatly more inferior candidate.

Your own explanation of the defections of repubs who didn't get their way to the illusion of a third party alternative demonstrates the emotional quality of the decision.

That is how many conservatives feel now.
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People who implode when they don't get things 100% their way are not suited to politics. If repubs lose in the fall, it will be this vice that condemns them.

Who would be the better president, McCain or Obama?
 
zukiphile
None but the desire to deprive the office from a greatly more inferior candidate.
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At least you are willing to admit that you are voting to put an inferior candidate in office. There is hope for you yet. :)
 
zukiphile
Who would be the better president, McCain or Obama?
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That is the $20 thousand dollar question, isn't it. They are both liberal... one more than the other, but does that mean McCain will be a better president? There is no way to know the answer to that question, especially when many people see very little distinction between the two on policy.
 
They are both liberal... one more than the other, but does that mean he will be a better president? There is no way to know the answer to that question, especially when many people see very little distinction between the two on policy.
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There are distinctions.....you just have to want to see them, and you don't. Stating over and over that there is no difference, philosophically, between McCain and Obama simply proves that you haven't put a whole lot of thought into it. You are simply content to repeat the conservative mantra, over and over.
 
firemax said:
...especially when many people see very little distinction between the two on policy.
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sasquatch
Stating over and over that there is no difference, philosophically, between McCain and Obama simply proves that you haven't put a whole lot of thought into it.
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Clearly, you are putting words in my mouth. I never said there are "no differences" between Obama and McCain. I said that "many people see very little distinction between them on policy". And I stand by that. Go back and read my post.

sasquatch said:
You are simply content to repeat the conservative mantra, over and over.
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And there's a distinction right there... it seems that many McCain supporters and McCain himself are not interested in the "conservative mantra".
 
There is no way to know the answer to that question, especially when many people see very little distinction between the two on policy.
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It is implausible that the differences on marginal tax rates, congressional apropriation and middle eastern policy count as "very little distinction". Those who pay so little attention to the mens' history and positions that it becomes difficult for them to tell which would be the better exec engage in a kind of self disenfranchisement that I wish were more common.
 
Clearly, you are putting words in my mouth. I never said there are "no differences" between Obama and McCain. I said that "many people see very little distinction between them on policy". And I stand by that.
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If you don't see enough difference between them to vote for one over another, then it amounts to "no differences". And I stand by that.

I believe this horse is dead.........
 
That is the $20 thousand dollar question, isn't it. They are both liberal... one more than the other, but does that mean McCain will be a better president? There is no way to know the answer to that question, especially when many people see very little distinction between the two on policy.
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If you can't see the difference between the two, I submit you have deliberately isolated yourself from any information about the present US political process.


WildbutgoaheadyoucansupportanincompetantbyyoursandboxattitudeifyoulikeAlaska ™
 
wildalaska
if you can't see the difference between the two, I submit you have deliberately isolated yourself from any information about the present US political process.
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small_peter.gif
 
The first sign was in 2006 when the GOP lost control of Congress.
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I would say to back just after the 2000 election.
The Kennedy no child left behind act was a start for me.
Bush's willingness to renew the AW Ban in 2004.

When Bush labeled the minutemen as vigilantes I was pi$$ed off beyond belief......beyond belief!!
Katrina was the last straw for me and that was 2005.


Ronald Reagan's response... "I didn't leave the democrat party. The party left me.".

That is how many conservatives feel now. Their party has left them. Regardless of how the republican party came to nominate a liberal... the fact is.... they have.

And conservatives are bolting in record numbers.
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as they should....why the hell would you reward this crap behavior with your vote........the lesser of two evils "logic" is not Reagan, not winnable.....and only furthers the problem.(denial that something is wrong)

You either believe in your principles or you dont.

Its a big wake time

I will never vote for Mr Amnesity...NEVER
 
For the first time in 20 years, I wil not vote Republican. I am tired of the johnnycomelately White house response to the illegal alien problem, to the exploding gasoline prices, and the failure to monitor the mortgage industry schemes, to the number of recusing issues among the Supreme court justices, that had investments and holdings in the number of corporations facing allegations before the court, to the repeated bungling of airport security systems, and yes, the AWB of 2004, and Katrina gun grab, and the Patriot Act, the extent of its intrusions, which will never be revealed to us regular folks as well as Congress. I could go on, but little ol me just doesn't have the political savvy in the know, just like many many other Americans, who are also feeling betrayed by their own Party
 
HunterGirl
For the first time in 20 years, I wil not vote Republican. I am tired of the johnnycomelately White house response to the illegal alien problem, to the exploding gasoline prices, and the failure to monitor the mortgage industry schemes, to the number of recusing issues among the Supreme court justices, that had investments and holdings in the number of corporations facing allegations before the court, to the repeated bungling of airport security systems, and yes, the AWB of 2004, and Katrina gun grab, and the Patriot Act, the extent of its intrusions, which will never be revealed to us regular folks as well as Congress. I could go on, but little ol me just doesn't have the political savvy in the know, just like many many other Americans, who are also feeling betrayed by their own Party
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You are not alone. The republican party has ignored its own supporters while going after new ones (Liberals). If you notice on this very forum, they have succeeded as McCain does have some amount of support here.

I guess they didn't learn their lesson back when conservatives threw Bush 41 out of office in 1992 because they were mad that he took a liberal position by raising taxes (Read my lips, no new taxes). Will they ever learn? The GOP will not win a national election without its conservative base. McCain will be unable to secure the conservative base. Obama is going to win in a landslide. Blame the GOP.
 
If you notice on this very forum, they have succeeded as McCain does have some amount of support here.
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I'd say he has more support here. :) Check the Bob Barr poll...and on a gun board no less....

Now don't be frustrated and bitter about that:D

WildlifeisgreatAlaska TM
 
It is implausible that the differences on marginal tax rates, congressional apropriation and middle eastern policy count as "very little distinction".
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McCain prefers the deck chairs in a more formal arrangement.
Maybe that's the problem; we're not in agreement on what the real issues are?
 
It is implausible that the differences on marginal tax rates, congressional apropriation and middle eastern policy count as "very little distinction".
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McCain prefers the deck chairs in a more formal arrangement.
Maybe that's the problem; we're not in agreement on what the real issues are?
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This is not meant to read as an insult, so please don't take it as one.

If you believe that federal tax and spending policy and our policy toward the muslim world are not "real" issues you have either developed an interest in issues the bulk of interested people would find trivial, tangential or moot, or as WildA indicates, you have suffered some isolation from the political process.

Those three listed above are not the only issues, but they are significant beyond reasonable question and each shows a polar difference between McCain and Obama.

For the first time in 20 years, I wil not vote Republican. I am tired of the johnnycomelately White house response to the illegal alien problem, to the exploding gasoline prices, and the failure to monitor the mortgage industry schemes, to the number of recusing issues among the Supreme court justices, that had investments and holdings in the number of corporations facing allegations before the court, to the repeated bungling of airport security systems, and yes, the AWB of 2004, and Katrina gun grab, and the Patriot Act, the extent of its intrusions, which will never be revealed to us regular folks as well as Congress. I could go on, but little ol me just doesn't have the political savvy in the know, just like many many other Americans, who are also feeling betrayed by their own Party
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On which of those issues is BHO the better choice?
 
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It is not that BHO is better, it is that McCain and BHO and HRC are all unacceptable, and not worthy of support. If McCain wins, the Repubs will think he is acceptable, even desirable. If McCain loses, maybe, just maybe, the Repubs will rethink the process. And maybe the Repubs will fight a Dem president more than they would a liberal Repub.
 
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