Negligent Discharge at Gun Show

Unless there's a concrete wall behind the vendor, there's no way to pick up that gun safely- there's someone standing behind the muzzle 4 rows over. It's sitting on the table pointed in an unsafe direction. As soon as you touch it, you break rule #1. I know you handle it safely after you get it clear of the table, but until then, unless you're at a table by the wall, the gun is pointed in an unsafe direction
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Semantics. and this definition would make it almost impossible to even hold guns on public hunting ground.

There are more rules than just the first one that are included in gun safety. The degree of difficulty in following them in no way negates them. To the contrary it should make you that much more cognizant of them.
 
The solution for this is a term called "wholesale condemnation."


For every one hundred ccw holders, one is stupid. Which one?
We don't know until they do something stupid.
So a policy is invoked that basically punishes all one hundred
ccw holders by having a rule that none of them are to carry while
at the Gun Show.
That is the only answer and it works for just about everything where
a stupid person is in the mix.
 
The solution for this is a term called "wholesale condemnation."

For every one hundred ccw holders, one is stupid. Which one?
We don't know until they do something stupid.
So a policy is invoked that basically punishes all one hundred
ccw holders by having a rule that none of them are to carry while
at the Gun Show.
That is the only answer and it works for just about everything where
a stupid person is in the mix
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I've heard this argument somewhere before but it sounded a little different

The solution for gun violence is a term called "wholesale condemnation."

For every one hundred gun owners, one is stupid. Which one?
We don't know until they do something stupid.
So a policy is invoked that basically punishes all one hundred
Gunowners by having a rule that none of them are allowed to own them
That is the only answer and it works for just about everything where
a stupid person is in the mix.

This isn't an acceptable justification regardless of the reason.

Steiner, I know that isn't how you intended that phrase to be used but thank you for supplying it anyway.
 
Please walk me through what "strapped off" means, and the process I should expect. I'm thinking I should just leave my magazine and bullets in the car?
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Generally before you enter the building there is a table set up with someone from the show asking if folks have a loaded gun. They will ask for the gun making sure its unloaded and they will use a plastic zip tie to render the gun safe and unusable while inside the show UNLESS YOU decide to cut the zip tie off.
 
This isn't an acceptable justification regardless of the reason.
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Gun shows are a unique situation, as I explained above. That should be more than obvious.

It is acceptable because there is no other place where gun toting folks gather in mass and handle guns and are tempted to handle their loaded guns with thousands of other people in literally every direction.

Sure, in some theoretical world, I'd let the stupid people handle their guns, have a negligent discharge and make them pay the price for their stupidity. In the real world, it is some NON-stupid person that gets shot that ALSO gets to pay for the stupid person's stupidity. That is unacceptable.

Claiming that it's the same argument the Brady's and their ilk use is a strawman. It's bull. This is a unique situation. It is not like the one guy walking down the street with no particular reason or compunction to play with or touch or look at his gun. You may still disagree with the rational but comparing it to the Anti-gun crowd is beyond silly. It is an absolute refusal to acknowledge the logic. Willful blindness.

With respect to LeadCounsel, the gun shows he attends must be dramatically different than the shows in NY. It is impossible, literally impossible, to pick up a gun at a gun show in NY without violating the 4 Rules. The moment your hand touches it, you have violated a rule. There is no safe direction. Yeah, you can point it at the ceiling, AFTER you've pointed it at 2 dozen people, but there's NO getting it there without pointing it at people and there's no putting it back down without pointing it at more people. You can not pick up a gun, with people literally shoulder to shoulder to shoulder, 360 degrees around you, without pointing it at dozens of people.
 
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Guys..

The deal on the 4 safety rules can get a little crazy. The real world facts of the matter is people get muzzled all the time everyday. I personally know at least 1 person that carries is a horizontal shoulder holster. That pistol muzzles EVERYTHING behind him ( not saying i agree with this mode of carry).

I personally have muzzled maybe a hundred people over my professional gun carrying lifetime. Most have been intentional, IE. I meant to do it. The only ones that got shot were the ones i intended to shoot

The 4 safety rules are there AS A WHOLE to make gun handling safer.

Think about it... You can violate 1 of them and nothing bad happens. Put 2 together and carp goes sidewise

Rule 1 "Treat every weapon as loaded".... Hmmm how do you ever dry practice? Examine a new pistol at a gun shop/show. How in the world could you ever CLEAN your pistol while adhering to this rule? How about "treat every weapon with the care and diligence due a loaded weapon"?

Rule 2 " Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy". Im not willing to destroy the fancy leather electric seats in my Yukon, but my pistol points at them EVERYTIME i get in it. Certain carry positions (AIWB) have the pistol covering your leg when seated. I know ALOT of very well know tactical trainers that carry that way everyday. Hmmmm...

As we look at just the first 2 you see we can be paralyzed into inaction if we follow them like the commandments from Mt Sinai.

So back to gun shows..... Pick up said gun from table with your finger off the trigger. Point it in the SAFEST direction possible and VERIFY its empty. A simple chamber check takes 2 seconds and know you KNOW IT UNLOADED. Dont intentionally point it at other people.

As to the CCW issue, as i said earlier. If you cant keep your CCW pistol safely holstered at the gun show, maybe you dont have the mental ability to carry a loaded gun ANYWHERE. Im sorry but it takes a thinking man/woman to play in this arena. Not every person is capable of that level of brain power
 
Semantics. and this definition would make it almost impossible to even hold guns on public hunting ground.
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Call it semantics if you want, but semantics almost got someone shot at that show. Fortunately the guy's finger didn't touch the trigger when the gun was lying in its case, because odds are it was pointed at somebody.

When I'm hunting and pick up a gun, it's pointed away from people.
 
sharkbite said:
Guys..

The deal on the 4 safety rules can get a little crazy. The real world facts of the matter is people get muzzled all the time everyday. I personally know at least 1 person that carries is a horizontal shoulder holster. That pistol muzzles EVERYTHING behind him ( not saying i agree with this mode of carry).
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This is not a violation of the rules. A gun by itself is irrelevant. Note that the rules apply to how a person HANDLES a gun. A gun in a holster is not being HANDLED. A gun on a table is not being HANDLED. The rules do not apply. A holstered gun is no more being handled and no more dangerous than a gun in a safe.

When a human being handles a gun, the rules apply. The rules are structured so a multi-rule failure is required if someone is to be injured.

1)ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED.
2)NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY.
3)KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
4)BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

Gun shows, by the very laws of physics, violate 3 of the 4 rules simultaneously, constantly, and from start to finish. The only thing preventing tragedy is the one remaining rule, trusting folks to keep their fingers off the triggers. If we could trust people to do that, we wouldn't need the other 3 rules... but we can't and we do.
 
With respect to LeadCounsel, the gun shows he attends must be dramatically different than the shows in NY. It is impossible, literally impossible, to pick up a gun at a gun show in NY without violating the 4 Rules. The moment your hand touches it, you have violated a rule. There is no safe direction. Yeah, you can point it at the ceiling, AFTER you've pointed it at 2 dozen people, but there's NO getting it there without pointing it at people and there's no putting it back down without pointing it at more people. You can not pick up a gun, with people literally shoulder to shoulder to shoulder, 360 degrees around you, without pointing it at dozens of people.
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Your missing the rule about keep your finger off the trigger.
That one helps when the others are violated.

When I'm hunting and pick up a gun, it's pointed away from people
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I try to keep it that way as well, but when I'm on public ground and loading/unloading my weapon from the car, the possibility is that I've flagged someone else who happens to be out there too.

So back to gun shows..... Pick up said gun from table with your finger off the trigger. Point it in the SAFEST direction possible and VERIFY its empty. A simple chamber check takes 2 seconds and know you KNOW IT UNLOADED. Don't intentionally point it at other people.
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This

You may still disagree with the rational but comparing it to the Anti-gun crowd is beyond silly. It is an absolute refusal to acknowledge the logic. Willful blindness.
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It is none of the above. If we can rationalize it and we use it as a valid argument to deprive someone the right to carry a firearm, so can they. And it will be just as valid when they do it.

I'll offer up this scenario: your at crowded movie theater with your family and someone threatens the life of your family, is it ok to violate rule number 2 and flag someone when you draw your weapon? What about rule 3? Will you usher your family out (provided you can) with your finger on the trigger? My point is that in this hypothetical scenario you are under a lot of stress and have other things on your mind. Should gun safety rules be relaxed? You already know there is threat in the area, should rule 4 be left off?


For the life of me I cannot believe we are trying to create a situation where it is acceptable to disregard gun safety rules. I have been to gun shows where you literally cannot get down some isles, it's simply too crowded. There are still ways to practice gun safety. If you violate rule 2 then don't violate rule number 3!! Follow rule number 1.

The more we talk about this, the firm is my belief that there is no unique situation or special circumstance where you can treat guns like they aren't guns and disregard/relax or ignore gun safety rules.

Interesting topic btw. Thanks Lew, for bringing it up.
 
I'll offer up this scenario: your at crowded movie theater with your family and someone threatens the life of your family, is it ok to violate rule number 2 and flag someone when you draw your weapon? What about rule 3? Will you usher your family out (provided you can) with your finger on the trigger? My point is that in this hypothetical scenario you are under a lot of stress and have other things on your mind. Should gun safety rules be relaxed? You already know there is threat in the area, should rule 4 be left off?
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No, it is not ok to flag someone. In fact, proper training will include how to draw and handle your gun in a crowd without flagging an innocent. (That doesn't change the fact that it's IMPOSSIBLE to do it at a gun show.) This is why certain carry methods are often frowned upon. It becomes impossible to draw in a crowd without flagging people (shoulder holsters). When you've got 4,000 people, shoulder to shoulder, in every direction and virtually every single gun is on a table and horizontal, it is IMPOSSIBLE to pick it up without flagging people.


No, it's not ok to usher your family out with your finger on the trigger. I certainly hope that's not even a serious question.

I don't even know what the relevance of this line of questioning is.

One of the reasons I don't go to gun shows is that they ARE they exception to ALL the rules, all the time, every day, non-stop. It is IMPOSSIBLE to pick up a gun in a gun show (any show I've ever been in) without flagging one or two dozen people.

Even if I am intent on keeping all 4 rules, which means I'm not going to handle a gun.... there are 4,000 other people who AREN'T!

For the life of me I cannot believe we are trying to create a situation where it is acceptable to disregard gun safety rules. I have been to gun shows where you literally cannot get down some isles, it's simply too crowded. There are still ways to practice gun safety. If you violate rule 2 then don't violate rule number 3!! Follow rule number 1.
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We are not "trying to create" anything. It exists. Being able to follow one rule doesn't not mean we are following safe gun handling rules. If you drive 55 but don't wear your seat belt, are you following traffic laws and being safe?

The OP of this thread is absolute, indisputable proof that the ONE remaining rule DOESN'T get followed.

It's a little mystifying that this is even a talking point. Mistakes happen, that's why there are FOUR rules. One is NOT ENOUGH. If it were, we could just say FOLLOW THE ONE RULE!

That one helps when the others are violated.
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And number 2 helps when 3 is violated and number 4 helps when number 1 is violated... so what? That doesn't mean it's ok to violate 3 out of 4 just as long as we're really, really careful about that 4th one... because one of the other 4,000 people in the same room, for hundreds of feet in every direction WON'T follow that last one.

It is none of the above. If we can rationalize it and we use it as a valid argument to deprive someone the right to carry a firearm, so can they. And it will be just as valid when they do it.
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First, it's impossible for an individual to violate constitutional rights. The constitution controls government behavior, not individuals. An individual can only violate individual laws.

So,
Can I come into your house and scream at you and your children/family?

Can I go into a business and tell everyone inside that their product sucks and go somewhere else, while I picket around their dining room with a sign equating their business to the KKK?
 
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It happens; I was at a Coconut Grove (Miami), FL gun show in the late 80s when some smarmy lawyer decided he was going to hide his loaded 9mm Beretta under his shirt so he didn't have to have it zip tied. The end result was that the 16 year-old nephew of an acquiantance of mine was fatally shot in the stomach by his uncle's friend. Many mistakes were made in this incident, ending up in a fatality.
 
No, it's not ok to usher your family out with your finger on the trigger. I certainly hope that's not even a serious question.
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No, it was a hyperbole.

We are not "trying to create" anything. It exists. Being able to follow one rule doesn't not mean we are following safe gun handling rules.
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True, it does exist. I should have said, Why are we trying to make excuses for this to exist?

One of the reasons I don't go to gun shows is that they ARE they exception to ALL the rules, all the time, every day, non-stop. It is IMPOSSIBLE to pick up a gun in a gun show (any show I've ever been in) without flagging one or two dozen people.
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Yes, it is impossible not to break rule 2. That is not a license to break the others. If you flag a person on the way to raising or lowering the barrel of a gun, so be it. Keep your finger off the trigger. Do not point the gun intentionally at another person. Follow those rules and things will be fine.
By allowing for lax gun safety rules at gun shows, we allow for NDs to occur. IF we follow gun safety rules, these things wouldn't happen. IF they don't happen, then there is no reason for me not to be allowed to concealed carry my weapon.

So,
Can I come into your house and scream at you and your children/family?
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Yes, you are welcome to come to my house. But I should warn you before hand that the kind of behavior your asking to engage in will land us both on the six o'clock news. Behave yourself.

Can I go into a business and tell everyone inside that their product sucks and go somewhere else, while I picket around their dining room with a sign equating their business to the KKK?
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Again yes, you can. Just don't tell people your here visiting me if you do.
 
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Brian Pfleuger said:
I mean "stupid" by the whole thing, actually.

Why does that rule need to exist? Stupid people.

Who ignores the rule? Stupid (and dishonest) people.

Who tries out holsters with a loaded gun, in a room full of people where there is no safe direction? Stupid people.

If I really felt the need to "try out" holsters, I'd get a blue gun. I wouldn't use my CCW, loaded or otherwise, because it is ALWAYS loaded, as are all guns.

I would go to the gun show (in a world without the rule that's only neccesary because people are stupid) and I would have my CCW strapped on my hip, loaded as always, and it would stay there the whole time. I would try out holsters with the blue gun, if I felt so compelled, and would be no more danger at the gun show than I am every where else, every single day.

Other non-stupid people would find a similar solution.

Stupid people are the problem.
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What makes this problem so hard to solve is that stupid people don't know they're stupid... because they're stupid.
 
Why are we trying to make excuses for this to exist?
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I'm not making excuses. I'm pointing out that it is literally impossible to avoid and that it is the justification for the "No Loaded Guns" rule. The rules can not all be followed, even by the smartest of people. No level of smarts allows you to do the impossible. Given that fact, the last thing we need is armed, stupid people NOT following the rules that COULD be followed IN ADDITION to not following the rules that CAN'T be followed.

No right is ever absolute. Ever. Not a single one. There are extenuating circumstances that make certain "violations" of those rights logical in very specific circumstances. Every single right has examples of logical violations, religion, press, speech, freedom, every one of them.

Gun rights are no different. Gun shows are a logical exception.


IF we follow gun safety rules, these things wouldn't happen. IF they don't happen, then there is no reason for me not to be allowed to concealed carry my weapon.
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If... if... if.... is a world of fantasy that I WISH existed but it does not. I covered all that in a post on page 2 (or maybe the end of page one). You and I would be fine and dandy in a gun show with a loaded CCW, of that I have no doubt. However, considering the circumstances, it is one of the (few) places where it makes sense to not allow loaded guns. Not because of the non-stupid people, but because of the price the non-stupid people would pay for the mistakes that the stupid people would (AND DO) make.

as Armed Chicagoan so aptly states:

What makes this problem so hard to solve is that stupid people don't know they're stupid... because they're stupid.
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All I know is that our 2nd ammendment rights are under constant attack and then you have people like this that fan the fire. They need to grab on to their ears, yank really hard and pull their freakin heads out of their rear ends.
 
as Armed Chicagoan so aptly states:


Quote:
What makes this problem so hard to solve is that stupid people don't know they're stupid... because they're stupid.
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Thus giving credence (sadly) to the statement: "Some people should not be allowed to own guns."
 
I don't know where you live but where I live no gun store allows loaded weapons to come in the door.

Shows do have security who patrol the floor checking to be sure all guns are strapped. Frequent announcements remind all that loaded firearms are prohibited and that includes CCW. A dealer or customer caught with a loaded weapon will be ejected.
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Wow! I'm not sure you could run a successful gun store here(OH) with a anti-CCW sign on the door. Most people would just not go in. I have seen signs that say keep your loaded guns holstered and show your unloaded guns at the door sign.

Well, your point is made. When I go, I follow the rules. No worries here. If gun show promoters need those rules, then I must weigh that in my decision to attend. Like I said before, it is basically a waste of time until our local promoters get a handle on the number of stuffed animal, fake china crap dealers and snake oil salesmen.

I hope that the point that reasonably mature people can CCW without shooting themselves or others is clear. Just because ol Chief "shot my leg" can't handle his coat safely, I pride my self on running ND free with such complicated equipment. Thank God the chief did not decide to be a nuke plant controller.
 
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