Negligent Discharge at Gun Show

[Aguila Blanca]

Ok Brian - sorry I brought it up.
I should have just dismissed the whole thing by saying "Stupid People" to myself rather than bring the problem to light.
But may I suggest that you bring your own Blue Gun equipped and weighted exactly as yours. We can't possibly have them all and truth is they don't make them all.

Stupid People...why didn't I think of that.
I must be one of them.

If you don't think stupid people is the problem ... what do you think the problem is, and how does the incident you reported support your theory of what the problem is?

Shows are safe places. This was the first ND in over 2 years. But it takes vigilance to keep it that way.
If I ran a show there would be metal detectors - to be sure those coming declare and clear and on the way out to prevent theft - which does happen.

In the space of one thread on one forum we have read abut one negligent discharge with no injury, one negligent discharge that killed a dog, and one negligent discharge that injured a vendor.

How is it that gun shows are safe places?

I think I understood you clearly.
Other people are stupid.
You are not.

Your sarcasm is unwarranted. Brian has stated a premise as to what he thinks the root of the problem is. You can't refute his theory by calling him names. If you disagree with his theory, explain why and tell us what alternate theory of yours better fits the facts.

Your later posts seem to suggest that you think the problem is people who don't follow rules, yet your description of the incident tells us that the vendor in question didn't intentionally ignore the rule, he brought the gun in thinking it was empty. Doesn't that sort of fit under the "stupid mistake" heading?

 

[leadcounsel]

You should NEVER EVER pull the trigger on a gun you have not personally cleared and checked twice visually and with your finger if necessary.

I said it once, but I'll repeat. We have 4 simple rules. Adding 100 more rules on top of those 4 rules is meaningless. If this person, or any person with an ND, can't follow 4 simple rules, then shame on them and consequences will likely follow.

I manage to carry guns in huge crowds all the time and never had an ND because I don't go pulling the triggers of loaded guns. At a gun show, I personally check and recheck any gun I handled immediately, before I go fondling it and such.

These NDs at gun shows are not due to people failing to follow the "no loaded guns at gun shows" rules. It's because they don't follow the FOUR BASIC rules, heck even ONE SIMPLE BASIC RULE. ONE RULE! It's not that hard to follow folks. Assume the gun is loaded and check it before you pull the trigger!!!!

Loaded guns at gun shows, frankly, are accidents TRYING, not waiting, to happen, IMHO.

Wrong. It's not an ACCIDENT! The guy didn't fall and stumble and slip his finger in the trigger guard and squeeze the trigger. It was a purposeful criminally and stupidly NEGLIGENT action. He knew better. He probably had decades of training and handling guns. He failed and purposefully put his finger on the trigger and pulled it and got a nasty surprise.

These IDIOTS damage gun rights by giving us a serious black eye.

I cannot for the life of me understand how someone cannot follow such simple and important rules. Especially professionals like FFLs and collectors and military members. Thread veer for a moment, but as a professional Soldier and lawyer, I reviewed tons of investigations in the military and on deployments. You would be baffled at how many professional Soldiers, even Special Forces, have NDs. In a short time, in SF, we had a Captain have an ND at the Embassy, a sniper pulling overwatch had an ND, a WO5 had an ND with a 1911 that nearly hit another Captain and an Airforce E5, and plenty of other NDs to add to it. I'm astounded at how highly trained people cannot follow such simple rules.

 

[Nathan]

Rule#1. . . .

Absolutely.
When you're opening up and setting out a hundred new firearms it's easy to get sloppy.

Wow! This is actually the most dangerous part of the gun show and you excused it. It is where uncontrolled guns are moved into a controlled(unloaded) environment.

Like Brian seems to be saying. . .I think I could bring my normal loaded CCW into a gun show safely. I think if I wanted a holster for it, I could unload it in the sand trap and carry it "strapped" back to the table. . . .or I could carry another gun so that gun could be strapped for use trying on holsters, etc.

So, this issue of stupid. . . .I think stupid is something which you can never really stamp out. Sure, some promoter and a NJ insurance company think stupid can be blocked with the signs. Has it been? I mean, here we are discussing another gun show ND!

So, I would propose gun shows allow CCW like gun stores. I would also propose they only allow strapped guns be handled, except in a gun fight. I would propose they enforce the strapped gun only handling policy with "enforcers" in a show security t shirt.

Last, the punishment for handling loaded guns in the gun show should be a lifetime ban. . .with your picture hung at the entrance as banned.

So back to the OP. . .So, there was an ND. It was done by a table vendor. How was this addressed? Root Cause is a table vendor was being careless. What did you do with this one vendor? What did you do to engage all table vendors about this issue? IME, if you don't address root cause, you will chase this problem forever. You know like a liberal legislating out violence by making guns illegal or hard to acquire. . .

Last, in an era where the best gun prices are generally online or FTF, aren't gun shows a dying breed. I used to go there to buy things like brass by the 1000, tumbler additive, used hard to find guns, see custom holster/gun makers sell their wares. . .but after looking for those things and being mostly disappointed, I think the gun show concept has run it's course. Why would I pay the 10 - 50% premium that gun show vendors seem to ask nowadays? Not to mention exposing myself to crowds of stupid who think safe gun handling does not apply at gun shows.

I too follow the rules or do not attend. . .

 

[JT-AR-MG42]

Now Lew, aren't you well and truly sorry you brought this up!

I agree with you 100%. On EVERYTHING you wrote.

Just mark me down as one of the 'stupid people' who abides by the show requests,
JT

 

[LewSchiller]

There are two parts to this story.
Yes the dealer responsible for the ND committed an unfortunate stupid mistake. What did I do? Nothing. I'm not the show promoter,
He was ejected from the show and banned from future shows by this promoter. For all I know by other promoters as well but that's speculation. Criminal charges have been filed. He may well lose his FFL.

I took the opportunity to say that people sometimes come in to a show with loaded CCW weapons despite clear notices that doing so is prohibited. I asked that people here be aware of this and help us keep shows safe by observing this policy.

The conversation then veered off. People made the assertion that stupid people are the problem. The no loaded weapons policy is unnecessary. They should be able to carry in a show because it's no different than carrying in a grocery store.

It's not and even if it were show policy prohibits it. People don't get to make their own rules. Adhere or don't go.

As for show safety...the three incidents I mentioned span 6 or 7 years with the last well over 2 years ago. I would assert that there are more incidents at shooting ranges. I know for a fact that just a few months ago there was a serious gunshot injury at the indoor range nearest me. Shows are safe. It takes vigilance to be sure they are.

 

[leadcounsel]

The no loaded weapons policy is unnecessary.

As for CCW holders, for holster guns, it IS unnecessary. And hypocritical.

Think about it for a minute. A gun rights gathering for gun enthusiasts where nobody is trusted with a loaded sidearm. I mean, really!?

If people followed rule numbers 1-4, an ND would NEVER happen. NEVER. It would be IMPOSSIBLE.

And since we all know that loaded guns sneak into gun shows, nobody should ever SKIP rules 1-4 and rely on the local policy, which is meaningless.

Frankly, the policy probably contributes to NDs because people get lax and assume guns are unloaded.

I'm wondering when the NDs will happen by fools handling their loaded guns at the front gate trying to fumble and unload them to enter and re-load them when they leave...

BTW, seems that the bulk of these that happen are the DEALERs and their guns, not the patrons sneaking in a loaded CCW...

Perhaps the gate guards should inspect the dealers, not the patrons.

 

[LewSchiller]

Nathan said
So, I would propose gun shows allow CCW like gun stores. I would also propose they only allow strapped guns be handled, except in a gun fight. I would propose they enforce the strapped gun only handling policy with "enforcers" in a show security t shirt.

I don't know where you live but where I live no gun store allows loaded weapons to come in the door. Shows do have security who patrol the floor checking to be sure all guns are strapped. Frequent announcements remind all that loaded firearms are prohibited and that includes CCW. A dealer or customer caught with a loaded weapon will be ejected.

The problem aside - from the dealer F'up - are those people who think all that doesn't apply to them.

 

[leadcounsel]

I don't know where you live but where I live no gun store allows loaded weapons to come in the door.

So your gun dealers frisk you when you come in wearing a CONCEALED handgun?

con·ceal [kuhn-seel] Show IPA

verb (used with object)

1. to hide; withdraw or remove from observation; cover or keep from sight: He concealed the gun under his coat.

2. to keep secret; to prevent or avoid disclosing or divulging: to conceal one's identity by using a false name.

 

[LewSchiller]

So your gun dealers frisk you when you come in wearing a CONCEALED handgun?

I suppose a person could go in like that but - IMO - a person who is unable to read and follow a simple directive like "No Loaded Weapons Allowed" should not have a permit.
These same people could also enter a Hospital, Post Office, Government Building or other no carry facility.

What's your point? I stated that gun stores in my area have policies that prohibit loaded firearms.
Your sarcasm is unwarranted.

 

[leadcounsel]

I suppose a person could go in like that but - IMO - a person who is unable to read and follow a simple directive like "No Loaded Weapons Allowed" should not have a permit.

Or maybe a gun dealer, who presumably is pro gun rights, should find another avenue of business...

I wouldn't purposefully do business with people that don't respect my rights to carry, except where I have no choice (government agencies, or no other market). I'll leave the store/restaurant that doesn't honor that right, just as I would a gun dealer.

 

[LewSchiller]

Or maybe absent such a policy they are unable to obtain the necessary business insurance?

I wouldn't purposefully do business with people that don't respect my rights to carry, except where I have no choice (government agencies, or no other market). I'll leave the store/restaurant that doesn't honor that right, just as I would a gun dealer. [/QUOTE

And that's your right. But that's not how you started this is it? I see no way to interpret your words other than .... Screw their policy I'll carry in their store if I want.

So your gun dealers frisk you when you come in wearing a CONCEALED handgun?

con·ceal [kuhn-seel] Show IPA

verb (used with object)

1. to hide; withdraw or remove from observation; cover or keep from sight: He concealed the gun under his coat.

2. to keep secret; to prevent or avoid disclosing or divulging: to conceal one's identity by using a false name.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I believe that gun shows are a unique environment.

They are THE ONLY place where it is essentially ok (and essentially unavoidable) to handle guns just like we would handle cabbage patch kids or match box cars.

It would be literally impossible to have a gun show that remotely resembled what we have today AND require everyone to follow The 4 Rules. If you are at a gun show, you quite literally have dozens of guns pointing at you at any given time. Any one who handles one of those guns is pointing it at you. It's completely and totally unavoidable.

Personally, I hate it and it's one of the reasons that I do not ordinarily go to gun shows.

That being the case, we have my point about stupid people. Stupid people do stupid things. Allowing loaded guns in a place where people are, by default, handling all manner of guns and constantly pointing them at each other is just inviting disaster. If stupid people only shot each other in their stupidness, I'd say have at it, but they don't.

I don't really care if it's the dealers or the patrons. Having an FFL doesn't make you follow The 4 Rules. They can still be stupid, too.

 

[leadcounsel]

It would be literally impossible to have a gun show that remotely resembled what we have today AND require everyone to follow The 4 Rules. If you are at a gun show, you quite literally have dozens of guns pointing at you at any given time. Any one who handles one of those guns is pointing it at you. It's completely and totally unavoidable.

Only because they are not following the rules.

Even in a crowded environment, I can pick up a longgun or handgun, point it safely at the ground, check the chamber, and then point it low-ready style at the ground and work the action, trigger, etc. without flagging a single person. It's not hard, but people who do flag and point guns at others are simply lazy and complacent because "the guns are supposed to be unloaded."

Similarly, you can inspect the weapons to ensure it's unloaded and then take the weapon and point it high on the wall above everyone, and work the action, trigger, etc. You can do this really without flagging anyone, within reason.

We can take the rule of not flagging someone to an extreme, too, and be paralyzed by it.

Keep in mind that we ALL flag someone from time to time. Ourselves with loaded carry guns, when seated for instance. Handling guns in the garage or gunroom, loaded or unloaded, flag family in the adjoining rooms and neighbors on the other side of 2 plywood walls, in easy handgun or rifle range.

If you've make 100% certain the gun is unloaded with no chance of loading it (no magazine or ammo nearby), then sweeping others is more offensive than dangerous.

The point is that anyone handling a gun, should, I repeat, NEVER do the dumbest thing possible and that is pulling the trigger on a gun in unknown condition.

 

[spacemanspiff]

we ALL flag someone from time to time. Ourselves with loaded carry guns, when seated for instance

Its not even comparable. My holstered gun on my hip, is not held in my hand. My fingers are not on the grip, nothing is inside the trigger guard because its all inside the holster carrying the gun.

If you've make 100% certain the gun is unloaded with no chance of loading it (no magazine or ammo nearby), then sweeping others is more offensive than dangerous.

Every ND occurs with a weapon that someone believed was unloaded.

I wouldn't purposefully do business with people that don't respect my rights to carry.

Aren't you a lawyer or something? Are you unfamiliar with the concept of the rights of property owners? Do you not understand that your right to carry does not extend on private property you do not own?
That 'right' becomes a 'privilege' when you are on someone elses property. A privilege that is revocable.

 

[Ruger480]

Even in a crowded environment, I can pick up a longgun or handgun, point it safely at the ground, check the chamber, and then point it low-ready style at the ground and work the action, trigger, etc. without flagging a single person. It's not hard, but people who do flag and point guns at others are simply lazy and complacent because "the guns are supposed to be unloaded."

I agree with this statement 150%

I also agree that if a gun shop has a policy that I can't bring my ccw into the store, I'm not shopping there.
I take that "no ccw" sign as a statement "I have something to sell you that your not responsible enough to carry".

I have yet to hear a compelling argument why gun safety is optional.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I don't know where you live but where I live no gun store allows loaded weapons to come in the door.

But you live in Colorado.

I certainly can't claim to have visited every gun shop in my state, but I have visited a good many, and bought guns from at least a half dozen or more. I can't recall a single one of them that didn't allow me to carry. Most of them know me and know that I carry -- the others didn't ask (and in some cases, depending on weather and season, would have had to be blind to miss that chunk of steel hanging on my belt).

The only thing certain about this is that nothing is certain. Conditions and rules vary by region, by state, by city, and even from one store to the next.

 

[Sierra280]

That 'right' becomes a 'privilege' when you are on someone elses property. A privilege that is revocable.

^^this.

Here in Nevada the only sign that can get you into legal trouble is a 'No Trespassing' sign, if you are trespassing. All the 'No guns Allowed' signs mean absolutely didly to CCW holders. However, if you are carrying on private property and the owner asks you to leave because of it: start walking.

 

[wayneinFL]

I have been to crowded gun shows. I have handled guns there. It can be difficult to check out a gun while practicing muzzle discipline but its not impossible.

Even in a crowded environment, I can pick up a longgun or handgun, point it safely at the ground, check the chamber, and then point it low-ready style at the ground and work the action, trigger, etc. without flagging a single person. It's not hard, but people who do flag and point guns at others are simply lazy and complacent because "the guns are supposed to be unloaded."

Unless there's a concrete wall behind the vendor, there's no way to pick up that gun safely- there's someone standing behind the muzzle 4 rows over. It's sitting on the table pointed in an unsafe direction. As soon as you touch it, you break rule #1. I know you handle it safely after you get it clear of the table, but until then, unless you're at a table by the wall, the gun is pointed in an unsafe direction.

So there's a good reason to keep guns unloaded in gun shows.

If you carry a loaded firearm into a gun show or gun shop, for heaven's sake, KEEP IT IN THE HOLSTER. I can't emphasize that enough. Pulling it out to try a holster, get it worked on, trade it, or sell it is just completely stupid.

As for someone bring a loaded firearm in a case to a dealer's table to sell... I don't even have words for that. There was no reason whatsoever not to get it cleared at the door.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Shows are safe places. This was the first ND in over 2 years. But it takes vigilance to keep it that way.

Sure they are safe, except for everyone sweeping one another with the muzzles of guns, sometimes directly an intentionally aiming at other people, and the sporadic NDs that go on.

There is a definite irony about the demands and willingness of being unloaded and strapped at gun shows.

Originally Posted by Lew Schiller
I don't know where you live but where I live no gun store allows loaded weapons to come in the door.

We had one of those, locally. They went out of business.

 

[Skans]

Only because they are not following the rules.

Even in a crowded environment, I can pick up a longgun or handgun, point it safely at the ground, check the chamber, and then point it low-ready style at the ground and work the action, trigger, etc. without flagging a single person.

Have you been to a gun show??? It's a cross between a petting zoo and a carnival side-show where a bunch of 3-year olds are running around and some old lady keeps pointing to a sign that says "don't touch the animals". A large percentage of gun show attendees know little to nothing about guns and gun handling and think that those of use who expect others to handle guns correctly are obsessive-compulsive freaks. Do you seriously expect every gun show attendee to:

1. Follow the rules of safe and proper gun handling;
2. Care about the rules of safe and proper gun handling;
3. Read the rules (that aren't posted anywhere) on safe and proper gun handling;
4. Or even know how to read at all?

Yeah, that sounds like a fun gun show - you'll be there with 10 other attendees watching the knife sharpening guy sharpen knives for 3 hours. Crickets....