Negligent Discharge at Gun Show

Well, I don't know if I'm stupid or not, but I know I'm not not the one being inexplicably belligerent at the moment.

The reason for negligent discharges under these circumstances is because people are doing stupid things. Can that really be argued?

They are trying out holsters, using loaded guns, in a room full of people where there is no safe direction to try out holsters with loaded guns. Does knowing that it is stupid and refusing to do it make me smart and does them doing it makes them stupid? In this case, yes it does.

Therefore, there is a rule that is aimed at preventing that (and other) stupid things.

Smart (and/or honest) people follow that rule. Stupid (and dishonest) people do not, so they keep doing the stupid thing that the rule is meant to prevent, namely trying out holsters, using a loaded gun, in a room where there is no safe direction in which to point the gun.

The fact that they keep doing it is why what you describe as happening, happens. People are doing stupid things.

Oh, and it doesn't matter if my blue gun that I would use is weighted the same as mine, since the only safe way to try out the holster would be with an unloaded and chamber flagged gun. Since that gun would be missing some 10+ ounces of weight from the loaded magazine that should be normally be, but is not, in it's grip it is not correctly balanced either.

That's just an example anyway, as I wouldn't feel any particular compunction to try out a holster at a gun show, any way.
 
The trouble is dangerous people, not loaded guns.

I could walk any where on this planet at any time, with my loaded gun, and not be the slightest danger to any person, any where.

I would be no more dangerous at a gun show, shopping for holsters, with my CCW on my hip, than I would be to the guy standing in my pizza shop right now, because I wouldn't handle my loaded gun any more than I am right now... which is not at all.

Stupid is the problem, not the loaded guns.
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I agree. I carry to be able to protect myself/loved ones. I dont want to give up this right just because im going to a gun show. Are we now trying to turn gun shows into "gun safe zones"?? Walking out to my car with a freshly purchased gun in a box seems a perfect time to be mugged for that gun

If i take guns to the show to sell/trade/whatever they are inspected and zip tied... My CCW gun stays holstered and LOADED
 
Firearms safety must be practiced constantly, whether at the range, at home, in the LGS or at a gun show.
 
It is a logical assumption that, irrespective of one's careful nature and training, one is statistically more likely to have an ND if one is physically in contact with a loaded weapon than someone who is not.

Not likely, just more likely.

Those people who enter a show with a loaded weapon are now at risk of having a ND in that crowded room, by virtue of having a weapon on them.
It is true that a rule may do little to change that risk if they failed to register, understand or care about the rule in question.

However, given that stupidity is not a two-tier system where you are or you are not, we cannot assume that only those stupid enough not to comply with the rule are the only ones stupid enough to potentially have a ND if they had a gun on them.

Therefore, it stands to reason that the rule does reduce the chances of a gun going off in a crowded room.

For that reason the rule is a good idea IMO.
 
I agree with no loaded guns at gun shows. The fact is that stupid people buy guns, just like they do cars and boats. There is no IQ test for buying a gun. So, in a room where up to perhaps 10,000 people come and go over the course of 2 days, you are bound to have at least a couple of stupid people attending gun shows.

Permitting CC permit holders to bring loaded weapons inside of a gun show is not a good idea. You know that all it takes is one, just one of those cc holders who can't resist showing his prize piece to a dealer or attendee in a bout of "mine is better than yours".

Now, I do carry my firearm in every gunshow I attend. However, I clear the chamber and leave the loaded magazine locked up in my vehicle. It gets checked and strapped at the door. I too have attended a gunshow where there was a ND.....and a member of the current Congressional House of Representatives was there too.
 
Pond said:
one is statistically more likely to have an ND if one is physically in contact with a loaded weapon than someone who is not.
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I'm 100% sure that everyone that has had an ND was in physical contact with a loaded weapon. LOL ;)

They may not have known it was loaded, but it was loaded none the less.
 
It is a logical assumption that, irrespective of one's careful nature and training, one is statistically more likely to have an ND if one is physically in contact with a loaded weapon than someone who is not.

Not likely, just more likely.

Those people who enter a show with a loaded weapon are now at risk of having a ND in that crowded room, by virtue of having a weapon on them.
It is true that a rule may do little to change that risk if they failed to register, understand or care about the rule in question.
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So now we determine the ability to CCW based on the amount of people around us? What about a crowded restaurant? The mall at Christmas? The county fair. How do we as the person carrying determine when the crowd is too thick and we should go lock up our pistol.

I carry everywhere/everyday. Its my right in this country and one i exercise with great care and diligence. At the grocery store, the mall and, Heaven forbid, the gun show. There is NO DIFFERENCE in my mind. Checking out veggies at the market or guns at the show, my CCW pistol has no bearing on this
 
Brian, I'm not trying to be belligerent. I put up a post that brought light to something that happened. I went on to explain that some people come in to a gun show and ignore the requirement that any firearm they bring in must be unloaded and tied off. That applies to guns they bring in to sell as well as a carry weapon.

Your response as I understood it - and to paraphrase - was Stupid people are the problem. I'm not stupid. I am safe. There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to walk into a gun show with a loaded weapon on my hip.

If I misunderstood what you were saying please accept my apology.

I read that the same way I would someone saying "There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to carry my loaded firearm into a courthouse. I'm not stupid. I'm safe."

To me - what you were saying is precisely what some people think. The requirement that they be unloaded and tied doesn't or shouldn't apply them. Other people are stupid - they are not. I've had 5 or 6 people produce loaded weapons at my spot in the past year. All justified it by saying they had a CCW permit. One was a woman who had it in her purse - she went straight up front to get tied off - the rest were guys who expressed disgust at my advising them that they needed to get out---they have a CCW permit. Their attitude was - I'm not like other people - I'm not stupid. Yet there they were handing me a loaded weapon to fit a holster.

It's unfortunate that the actions of some create policy for all.
Happens all the time.
A gun show is a crowded sometimes chaotic place. It's hard to keep focused on safety. The policy is there for a reason.
For the stupid people and those who are not.

Shark - needless to say that's your decision. With regard to shows...you either unload or you don't go. To do anything else is wrong.
 
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Gun shows are unique in a number of ways, not the least of which is a near-unavoidable breaking of one or several of the four rules of safe gunhandling; there is no 'safe' direction, and trying a trigger is an integral part of inspecting a used weapon.

With this unique situation comes some unique safety rules to replace the ones we're surrendering to the environment; just as an IDPA match protects against ND's by keeping weapon handling confined to the line or the safety table, and allows ammo handling anywhere EXCEPT the safety table, it's a recognition that we're doing something out of the ordinary, and requires out of the ordinary precautions.

Loaded guns at gun shows, frankly, are accidents TRYING, not waiting, to happen, IMHO.


Larry
 
Maybe someone that pulls out a loaded gun at a gun show should be treated the same as someone that pulls out a loaded gun in a pizza parlor or in the middle of Wal-mart

If i was car shopping and pulled out my pistol to see if it fit in the glove box, i would expect to be chastised at least. I think that type of event should be enough to have your permit pulled. Youve proven the lack of discretionary decision making that would leave me to conclude you are not capable of making lethal use of force decisions.... Hence no more permit for you


I dont want to foster an "us and them" attitude but carrying a pistol puts you into a permanent "no stupid zone". If you cant live up to that, then carrying a pistol aint for you
 
LewSchiller said:
Your response as I understood it - and to paraphrase - was Stupid people are the problem. I'm not stupid. I am safe. There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to walk into a gun show with a loaded weapon on my hip.

If I misunderstood what you were saying please accept my apology.

I read that the same way I would someone saying "There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to carry my loaded firearm into a courthouse. I'm not stupid. I'm safe."
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Understood. See, I knew I wasn't explaining myself very well.;)

I'll try to say it a little better....

It's true, as you say, that "we" all seem to think we're not stupid. The trouble is that some of us are wrong.;)

Granted, we're all "stupid" at some time, in some way, but there should be certain times when a generally non-stupid person don't do a universally stupid thing.

Know what I mean?

Hypothetical world, there are no stupid people. Yes, we should be able to carry our guns in a gun show because none of us are stupid and we're not going to do stupid things.

Real world, as you say, none of us think WE'RE the stupid ones so some of us think the rule shouldn't (doesn't) apply to us, some of us are wrong (they ARE the stupid ones) and so they shoot a hole in something at the gun show.

Round about way of saying, I do think (in a theoretical world) that I should be exempt from that rule. In all likelihood, so should you. I don't think you'd pull out your loaded CCW and try holsters at a gun show. I KNOW I wouldn't. I have and will do any number of stupid things, but that ain't one of them.

So, the rule exists because stupid people do stupid things and, unfortunately, there's no stupid stamp on people's foreheads. The promoters of the show can't know if I'm stupid or you are or neither or both, so they have to stop everybody from carrying.

At least in terms of carrying my gun, I'm NOT a stupid person. I don't touch or draw it or fondle it or show it to people or try out holsters or do any thing else with it. It hangs on my waist. It never has and never will come out of it's holster except to go back in it's safe at night, come out of it's safe in the morning, or (God forbid) I ever need it to protect myself. I WOULD be safe at a gun show with my loaded gun, or any other place. No doubt, you would too.

The trouble is the folks who aren't/wouldn't.
 
Brian - yes..I agree with everything you just said.

I add to that
1: It's show policy...period. If a person can't abide by that they shouldn't go.
2: It's policy for all the reasons previously stated
plus
3: I can't imagine a show promoter could get insurance absent such a policy.
No insurance no hall rental
No hall rental no show
:-(
 
For sure.
The story was this gun came back as defective. They had taken it to the range during the week. They hadn't cleared or checked it when it came back - it had a round in the chamber.
When setting up - taking it out of the box - they improperly handled it. Treated it like other "new" guns in their boxes.
Discharge.
Missed another vendors leg by a foot or so.
Should never have happened.
It was said earlier that vendors should be talked to...well they are and this event served to further put the fear of God in everybody.
 
I'm 100% sure that everyone that has had an ND was in physical contact with a loaded weapon.
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So am I.
That was precisely why I made that point.

So now we determine the ability to CCW based on the amount of people around us? What about a crowded restaurant? The mall at Christmas? The county fair.
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Perhaps more by whether it is a place where people are likely to be unholstering guns to compare/show them, try on accessories etc, such as a gun show rather than a restaurant, the Mall, the country fair.

If you CCW you draw it if you need it. I think the chances of people finding a reason to draw their weapon at a gun show other than needing it are significantly greater.
No different to the gun-shop etiquette of unloading before you go in to try on that rail light at the counter, IMO.

How do we as the person carrying determine when the crowd is too thick and we should go lock up our pistol.
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By the rule on the door that says "No loaded weapons" would be my guess.

Still, petition to have the rules lifted if you like...
 
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So now we determine the ability to CCW based on the amount of people around us? What about a crowded restaurant? The mall at Christmas? The county fair. How do we as the person carrying determine when the crowd is too thick and we should go lock up our pistol.
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No. None of this is relevant. However, where there are hundreds or thousands of people just wandering around, all of whom are handling guns, racking slides, squeezing triggers, many with no training - requiring the guns that enter this place to be checked and unloaded is common sense and should be expected. Let me put it this way: Would you go to a crowded, indoor (or outdoor) gun range, where people are crammed together, bumping into each other, with no rules on gun handling, and no rules on "hot" or "cold" range while changing targets? If you assume that all guns are loaded, it would be no different than taking your kids shooting at this crowded gun range of anarchists.
 
Rule number 1 never gets waived. Ever.
There's a saying "you don't rise to the occasion you sink to your level of training." If you handle that many firearms that you developed poor firearm safety habits then you're wrong. You should have reinforced good habits.

And trying justify gun restrictive policies using the lowest common denominator argument is unacceptable.
People who don't like guns try to lump me in with the idiots who misuse them. Its Frustrating.

I have been to crowded gun shows. I have handled guns there. It can be difficult to check out a gun while practicing muzzle discipline but its not impossible.
 
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