Maybe I need to rethink my faith in 45 acp

I usually use this argument in the revolver vs. auto debate but I think it's applicable here too. Can anyone show me a documented case of a legally armed civillian in the United States (police and military don't count) who was killed or seriously wounded because his or her gun did not carry enough ammunition?
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I BELIEVE Mark Wilson of Tyler Texas, the citizen who engaged a rifle armed rampage killer in front of a court house, ran his 1911 (if I remember right) dry, was incapacitated by rifle fire and then executed while helpless. Mind you hit he the killer but, but the body armor the killer was wearing prevented the rounds from having any effect.
 
Gabe has his opinion and, well - the rest of us have ours. Clint Smith carries a .45, Jeff Cooper carried a .45, major SWAT teams carry a .45, the military (before 1985) carried a .45, I personally carry a .45. I think I'll stick with what works for me. To paraphrase someone else - a 9mm gets bigger but a .45 don't shrink. More bullets in a 9mm don't mean more hits. Just ask the FBI.
 
I feel quite comfortable with 8 rounds of .45 ACP. If I feel I need more ammo for a particular event, I carry a couple of extra magazines.

Of the few people I know personally that have used their firearms for personal defense, most of them merely presented their weapon and the situation defused. Of the one that had to shoot, he fired 3 times and the fight was over.

It depends completely on your level of proficiency and your location. What might be prudent for a police officer might not be prudent for a citizen.

Police purposely go into bad situations where multiple threats might exist. Citizens with any common sense avoid dangerous situations and typically they face no more than one or two assailants. If you can't end a fight with 8 rounds and two BG's, you need to practice more with your firearm. I don't know of any self defense story in recent memory where a citizen (not police) was involved in a protracted gun battle that lasted for 10 minutes and 30+ rounds were exchanged between the two fighting parties.

I'm not saying it won't/can't happen. But where I live I'm more likely to face a car jacking, store robbery or something along those lines. I don't venture into drug ravaged areas nor do I live in a town with much crime.

To each their own. You need to assess your needs and adjust accordingly.
 
Thanks pogo, it was indeed a very good read. It certainly makes me you think of what is adequate and what is not and simply that sometimes 1 shot just wont cut it.
 
But its also likely that Gabe Suarez knows a lot more about being in a gunfight that I do, and maybe I need to completely rethink my strategy for self defense.
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I don't know how likely that actually is, but putting Gabes veracity aside for a moment there is no need to change anything based on what one instructor thinks. I seriously doubt Gabe knows more about gunfighting than folks like John Farnam, Paul Abel, Chuck Taylor, Clint Smith, and a host of others who carry or have carried small capacity firearms. Fewer rounds do create a different strategy, but that doesn't mean that it is a better strategy.

Most all of the SWAT and HRT and Elite military units are carrying the 1911.
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Sorry, but that is simply not correct. Yes, many of them have gone to the 1911 pattern, but I'd bet that a majority of them have not.
 
That was a great Read. It just goes to show you how much guts and mind set count in a fight. In my 24 years in the army and 6 combat tours I have seen and been in some bad gunfights. I was in when we changed from 45 to 9mm, big yawn:rolleyes:. I carry a Glock 30 or a G26 with 1 spare mag. I feel under gunned with both of them, I have a winchester 30-30 behind the seat of my truck, that is my real CCW. I agree with "sgt" who posted on the 1st page. If I was looking for a fight I would have a Long gun. I have never heard of Gabe Suarez, but I know one thing; Mindset wins fights more than caliber. Someone on here has a signature that says something like "Be polite but be prepared to kill everyone you meet". I think that is correct. After may last tour in OIF in 06 I was driving on the highway and it was weird looking for IEDs and The Mooge going along I95 but I was:D, guys who have been there know what I mean. I am not all wacked out anymore but I am still hyper aware and will stay so. Oh yea I have guns around my house too, I don't carry in the house all that much.
 
It is doubtful that a higher capacity handgun would've done much to save Mark Wilson as few if any common service calibers can reliably penetrate body armor.

Lance Thomas is an interesting case in that he did indeed get wounded and he also ran his revolvers dry. The capacity of the revolvers, however, cannot be attributed to his wounds as in both cases he was shot before he had the chance to use his handgun. Also, he jammed his P225 due to his improper grip and had to go to one of his P220's. This would not have happened with a revolver. What can really be gleaned from Mr. Thomas's story is that the proper mindset and tactics are what really makes the difference. It does make one think though that perhaps a "New York Reload" is a better alternative to a spare magazine or speedloader.
 
It is doubtful that a higher capacity handgun would've done much to save Mark Wilson as few if any common service calibers can reliably penetrate body armor.
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Maybe, maybe not. I suspect that, as many of us do, Mr. Wilson trained to keep firing COM until the threat was neutralized. Usually, that is an effective tactic. That he ran out of rounds in the magazine before realizing that COM wasn't an effective place to shoot that particular BG is unfortunate and a mistake that anyone could make. However, if he had somewhat more ammo AND a change in mindset where he would have realized that continuing to shoot at the COM was getting him nowhere, hence a change in target was in order, such as switching to a head shot or hip shot after the first half dozen solid hits were ineffective, then he could have survived and the BG could have been neutralized. Note that there was actually sufficient ammo in the .45 to have pulled that off, given the training to switch targets, even without having a higher magazine capacity than he had. That said, the extra capacity would have been nice to have.

Regarding Lance Thomas, I am in agreement with Webleymkv. But I have 1 other observation. Mr. Ayoob mentioned at the end of the article that Mr Thomas became disappointed in the performance of the Glasser Safety Slugs. I would have liked to have had more details on that. Which guns were loaded wtih the Safety Slugs? Which BGs were shot with them, where were they shot, and what was the eventual outcome regarding them? Did it require follow up with another gun to finish off the BG?

Regarding the "New York Reload" tactic, that is part and parcel of my home defense plan. That, and making sure that not only I but SWMBO as well have accessible guns and backups so that we can lend supporting fire to each other as necessary.

Which begs the question regarding Mr. Thomas: Was there anyone back in the back room of the shop? If so, wouldn't it have been wise for said person in the back room to be armed with a shotgun, providing the overwhelming "surprise" factor that would have truly iced any of the encounters? After all, handguns are poor substitutes for long guns.
 
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More important than calibre is placement. 9mm, .40, .45 if you hit the heart they will go down. If you hit them in the heart and they don't they got a vest go for the groin or head.
 
Maybe, maybe not. I suspect that, as many of us do, Mr. Wilson trained to keep firing COM until the threat was neutralized. Usually, that is an effective tactic. That he ran out of rounds in the magazine before realizing that COM wasn't an effective place to shoot that particular BG is unfortunate and a mistake that anyone could make. However, if he had somewhat more ammo AND a change in mindset where he would have realized that continuing to shoot at the COM was getting him nowhere, hence a change in target was in order, such as switching to a head shot or hip shot after the first half dozen solid hits were ineffective, then he could have survived and the BG could have been neutralized. Note that there was actually sufficient ammo in the .45 to have pulled that off, given the training to switch targets, even without having a higher magazine capacity than he had. That said, the extra capacity would have been nice to have.
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The key here is that a higher capacity might have made a difference but it would take several what-if's and maybe's. It wouldn't be hard for somone to, in the heat of the moment, keep firing away at COM until slidelock (many even suggest this as a tactic) which would do no good with an armored target. The fatal flaw that I see here is the tactics rather than the hardware, though to be fair most of us would probably do no better. What this case really boils down to is that Mr. Wilson was a heroic citizen with a nasty case of bad luck.
 
I really don't know Gabe Suarez, . . . but a Google of that name does not bring up the affirmative response I would like to see in my instructors.

Just food for thought, may God bless,

Dwight
 
What this case really boils down to is that Mr. Wilson was a heroic citizen with a nasty case of bad luck.
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I'll go along with that, to a point. Yes, he was a heroic citizen. True, he did have the bad luck to be faced with a BG with a rifle in body armor. But, he fell victim not only to the BG's bullet but also to a lapse in training. Not that he wasn't trained because he apparently was. It is just that the training wasn't adequate to the situation. And that should cause all of us to re-evaluate our own training.

Hammering away at the COM until your weapon is empty is not always the best tactic, as Mr. Wilson's encounter demonstrates. Keeping enough awareness of the situation so that you can recognize that your primary target (COM) isn't working and moving on to a secondary target (head, neck, hip) while you still have enough ammo to do so is a wiser, albeit more difficult, tactic. It takes training to quickly make the transition, and it takes better marksmanship to hit those smaller targets. Having some extra capacity (which may mean greater magazine capacity and/or a readily available reload) makes it more feasible to move on to a secondary target with enough ammo to work with once the decision to do so has been made.
 
I'll go along with that, to a point. Yes, he was a heroic citizen. True, he did have the bad luck to be faced with a BG with a rifle in body armor. But, he fell victim not only to the BG's bullet but also to a lapse in training. Not that he wasn't trained because he apparently was. It is just that the training wasn't adequate to the situation. And that should cause all of us to re-evaluate our own training.

Hammering away at the COM until your weapon is empty is not always the best tactic, as Mr. Wilson's encounter demonstrates. Keeping enough awareness of the situation so that you can recognize that your primary target (COM) isn't working and moving on to a secondary target (head, neck, hip) while you still have enough ammo to do so is a wiser, albeit more difficult, tactic. It takes training to quickly make the transition, and it takes better marksmanship to hit those smaller targets.
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No argument. I completely agree that Mr. Wilson's training did not serve him well in this particular instnace and also that a different training routine may have saved his life.

Having some extra capacity (which may mean greater magazine capacity and/or a readily available reload) makes it more feasible to move on to a secondary target with enough ammo to work with once the decision to do so has been made.
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While that may be true to a point, I think what is more productive would be extra training to transition to a headshot in the first place. Perhaps the old "two to the chest one to the head/pelvic girdle" routine would be the best route to take training-wise. Given this routine, any handgun with a capacity higher than a two-shot derringer would be feasible.
 
While that may be true to a point, I think what is more productive would be extra training to transition to a headshot in the first place. Perhaps the old "two to the chest one to the head/pelvic girdle" routine would be the best route to take training-wise. Given this routine, any handgun with a capacity higher than a two-shot derringer would be feasible.
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Practicing that transition is part of my normal training routine. When one practices that sort of "cadence": 2 to COM, quickly transitioning to 1 at the secondary, and makes it second nature, then you've made the body armor clad adversary problem much more survivable. And yes, that means that you have that much less need for higher capacities than your "normal" revolver or single stack autoloader. At least when dealing with single opponents.
 
I've been naive but I always felt it likely that in a typical self defense situation I would be firing only 1 or 2 rounds
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Statistically, maybe. I always prepare for the worst and hope for the best. I prefer to carry a hi cap pistol, usually a spare mag as well, but sometimes can be found packing a low cap gun with a reload or two.

Train with what you are comfortable with, practice reloading drills, but consider what would happen if you ran your gun dry in a firefight.
 
The fact is that you should always use what works best for you. All other things being equal I would go with the greater capacity gun but only if you are just a comfortable with it as you are your 45.
 
As has been stated many times, any handgun is a defensive weapon and is a poor choice if a choice is available. For most police officers, if they know they are going into an armed confrontation, they have the choice of taking a long gun with them but many choose not to, which is a very poor decision. Citizens are limited but may have the same choice inside their own home. That being said, any well maintained reputablely manufactured auto or revolver from 9mm to 45acp with a reload is an adequate self defense system in my opinion. An autloader with a box of ammo crammed into the magazine well is still a defensive tool. A great example is the North Hollywood shootout where scores of officers armed only with pistols tried to go on the offensive against the two bad guys armed with assault rifles. They could not stop the suspects with hi-cap autos.

You are in no way poorly armed by carrying your .45.
 
I say go with whatever you're comfortable with.

I carry an XD45 with 14 rounds of 230 gr. HST, along with two spare 13 round magazines. I feel that is more than enough firepower for just about any civilian defensive situation. I think even carrying a single stack .45 like a 1911 with one spare mag is enough too. If the BG isn't convinced that he should back down after receiving a couple .45 slugs to the chest, empty the gun into him, then reload. If that don't work, you're either missing, or the guy is sky high on something that is keeping him on his feet.
 
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