Maybe I need to rethink my faith in 45 acp

Why would you have to give up rounds if you wanted to carry a 45acp? I can name a few that holds just as many rounds or close to most 9's and 40's. just to name one is the Glock 21. I think 14 rounds of 45 would get the job done in most cases. Of course we are talking a big full size handgun. I have nothing but good things to say about the 9's and 40's have a few myself. But if I did want to carry a 45 I wouldn't necessarily have to give up many rounds to do so. Might be a different story if we are talking about small ccw weapons, but then again the Glock 30 (45acp) is pretty much acceptable for concealed carry and it holds 11 rounds. Just a thought.
 
thinktwice, I think the issue with double stack .45's is the overall diameter of the grip just becomes uncomfortable for many. I have a big hand, but still find the Para Ordnance double stacks to be too big and bulk for my taste. The standard 1911 frame just fits my hand perfectly.
 
This Gabe Suarez? Sounds like he could fight his way out of a problem with a revolver...

http://www.snubnose.info/docs/revolver_ccw.htm

THE REVOLVER AS A CCW GUN
By Gabe Suarez

Jeff Cooper once told me that, in the old days of training, half of a typical pistol class would be comprised of auto-loading handguns Typically Browning/Colt types. The other half, usually police officers, would be armed with revolvers. He said that this trend slowly began to change in the early eighties. By the time I attended his courses in the late eighties, it was rare to see a revolver-armed student.

This trend was also seen in law enforcement. I went through my original Police Academy pistol training, back in the old days, with a revolver (S&W Model 67). The most common sidearm for many officers, at that time, was some sort of Smith & Wesson or Colt revolver, usually .38 Special or .357 Magnum. Today, however, you rarely see revolvers in the field, and then only in the holsters of older officers, usually just months from retirement. Most of the newer breed sport Glocks, Berettas, and other ultra-modern handguns. The feeling among many officers is that the wheel gun is obsolete. For many, its only true role is that of last-ditch backup in the form of a 2 Barreled .38 snobby. Is the revolver obsolete? Lets think about this.

While, I am one of those who favors a modern handgun (Glock in my case), I am not so quick to dismiss a good revolver. The revolver is very effective as a fighting tool. All you need do to verify that is study your history. A fighting handgun, regardless of design, is intended for a specific mission. That mission, specifically, is to allow its operator to respond to unanticipated threats, quickly and in a powerful manner. That mission is the same today, as it was 50 years ago. These confrontations have always been characterized by high intensity, short duration violence, where so-called firepower is rarely an issue. Of greater importance is the ability to deal the adversary a solid and powerful blow, before he does the same to you. Most revolvers designed for anti-personnel use fulfill that mission as well as any other handgun, but no handgun is powerful enough to come with a 100% guarantee. Sometimes a follow-up shot or two is needed. So controllability becomes an issue.

Many fighting revolvers are of the .38/.357 caliber family. This will do fine as long as careful ammunition selection takes place. Some .357 magnum loads, for example, are dramatically over-penetrative and exhibit excessive muzzle flash. Other loads, which are just as effective against humans, do not share the same characteristics of penetration and muzzle flash.

Revolvers are also available in .40/.44 caliber. In my opinion, although larger than their 357 caliber cousins, provide a greater potential of creating damage to the adversary. Be careful with load selection again. It is a rare individual who can control a full-house .44 magnum in hammers and multiple target engagements. Don't trust your life to magic bullet propaganda. A thorough study of the literature available from forensic specialists on wound trauma, and terminal ballistics should be your guide.

While on the issue of weapon control, mention must be made of the stocks on a revolver (No, Grasshopper They are not called Grips). Many of the wooden stocks originally sold on revolvers were there as almost an after thought. This has changed in recent years as revolver manufacturers attempt to regain a share of the market. These weapons are now being sold with more suitable stocks from the factory. Whether you retain the factory stocks or purchase some type of after-market stocks, be certain that the left-side panel allows clearance for speed-loader insertion and manipulation. If this is not the case, either change them, or modify them.

Additionally, any sharp edges or points on a weapon intended for combative use are to be avoided. Briskly rub your hands all over the revolver. Anyplace you find a sharp edge, remove it. Do this even if refinishing the weapon is needed as a result. This is not an issue with the stainless steel revolvers, but it may with a blue steel weapon. Skill requires practice, both dry and live-fire. This is something you'll probably avoid if your gun tears up your hands so much that you need to keep some bandages and plasma around when you practice.

Along with control, accuracy is of great importance. The two things on a revolver affecting this the most, assuming that everything is in working order, are the sights and the trigger. Revolver sights come in adjustable and fixed varieties. Either one is acceptable, as long as they are easy to see quickly under stress, and in dim light. Avoid any sights that are extremely high profile, or which have sharp edges. Again, sharp, hand-slashing points may be rounded off with a file. For those who operate in low light environments, tritium sights are available for many revolvers.

The actual trigger on most revolvers is suitable as issued. It should not be excessively wide, nor should it have grooves or other additions on its face. Smooth and polished is the best type of trigger face. Remember, most combat revolver shooting will be done in double action, so a trigger that allows easy double action work is preferred. There is little that the individual can do in order to alter the actual weight of the trigger press. This is the realm of the revolver-gunsmith. Whatever you do, do not cut the springs on your revolver. If you wish a lighter, smoother trigger, you can have one, but there are no shortcuts here.

Revolvers are issued with all sorts of barrel lengths. Again, keep sight of the mission. These weapons will be carried in and presented from a holster. A very long barrel will be slow and difficult to maneuver. Similarly detrimental, an extremely short barrel will sacrifice other mission requirements. A good compromise is something in the 4 inch to 6 inch range.

Those are all the requirements of a fighting revolver. I have found that when compared to the auto-loading pistols, unless the test is slanted toward the auto-loader with excessive and unrealistic speed loading requirements, the revolver is just as useful. With proper ammunition, the revolver gives away nothing to the auto-loader in terms of terminal ballistics. The only area where it is surpassed by the auto-loader is when long strings of fire are faced, requiring constant reloading. Remember, however, that such scenarios are rare in the real world. Even when such problems arise, such as a North Hollywood Robbery type of incident, they are probably not going to get solved any better if you are equipped with an auto-loading pistol! No handgun equipped operator will do well in a rifle fight.

The revolver skills that an operator must have to be effective are the same ones he would need if equipped with an auto-loader. Constant attention must be given to double action trigger manipulation. This is the heart of the wheel gun, so dry practice the DA trigger day and night. Along with this, manipulating Speed Loaders is of great importance, as is developing ability to maneuver individual rounds during tactical reloads. This is the only weakness of the revolver, so make allowance for that. In order to be the best you can be with the revolver, it is essential to seek out and obtain professional instruction.

Is the revolver dead? In a word, no. I suspect that as we enter the next century, however, there will be very few revolvers in the duty holsters of police officers, or security personnel. For those who are required to carry it, or for those who favor its simplicity, the revolver will still allow them to do just as well in a confrontation as any space-gun, as long as the operator does his part. As we've always said, It is the man, and not the weapon which makes the difference.
 
I was stalked once on a hunting trip by a whacko fellah. We ended up of a dirt trail, I was out of my 4x4 using it for cover and the other guy was behind his Jeep doing the same. He had a levergun, probably a 30-30 levelled at me, I had a 22 rifle and a Kahr PM9 with 6rnd mags.

He backed off and no shots were fired. Never could figure what made him tick, but parked the Kahr for a Glock with more capacity. I know if shots were fired, it would have kaken more than 6.
 
Lets be realistic. In the perfect world, I would wander around in shorts and a T shirt, remain in condition red 24/7 and, if there was a threat, the appropriate weapon would magically appear in my hand, be it my Wilson .45...My Ithaca Stakeout...my Remington 700 (30.06) or my AR and, I would dispatch the problem, then enjoy a dandy glass of iced tea.

When I first became a cop, I carried a Colt Govt model in a Milt Sparks Roadrunner and two spare mags loaded with Hydroshocks off duty.

After a few years of NOT getting into gunfights off duty, I carried the same .45 and one magazine.

Then an HK P7 and a couple mags....
Then an HK and one mag...
Then a 3" 65 and one speedloader...
Then a 642 and one speedloader...
And, still haven't gotten into a gunfight off duty. (25 years now)

So, for 25 years I have always had enough gun to handle any problem that came up off duty.

In the last few years, I have actually started going back up in firepower a little bit. Most of the time, now, I carry either a Sig P239 in .40 or an HK USPc in .40. And, I carry one extra mag with either gun. But, as a Police Officer, I KNOW if I am in a mall and a shooting goes down, I will get into it. I don't only carry the gun to defend myself, but, others too.

Some of my reasons for changing guns are based on my age and abilities. I can't see the little fixed sights on a revolver as well as I could once. I like the big, black fixed sights on an auto. And, my hand cannot take the pounding of full house magnums in a revovler, the auto is alot easier for me to shoot fast and accuratly. Why choose the .40 cal? Its what my Dept issues. My issue gun is a Glock 35. If I go to the range, I use thier ammo to practice and qualify. If we issued .45, I would carry that. 9mm? Same thing.

I guess to sum it up, you don't need to be a gunslinger to be able to defend yourself. Always dressing around a gun and magazines gets to be a real pain in the ass in the real world when its 105 degrees and everybody else is wearing shorts and tank tops and you are wearing a photogs vest. Pick a couple guns you shoot well and are comfortable with find a good way to carry them and have faith that you are way ahead of the curve...On really hot sweaty days, just running around in town, I may just have that 3" 65 and one speedloader with me, and ya know what? I think I can handle just about anything that comes up...
 
I like having high capacity. Who doesn't? When I was looking for a .45 it was between a 1911 and a HK USP. I ended up buying the HK. The 12 round capacity was a big selling point for me. Here is where I contradict my self :). The military issued the 1911 because 1 well placed shot would stop even the most determined enemy. 7 + 1 rounds was enough for the US military for many years and i'm sure they had a much higher probability of encountering multiple assailents than any of us normal citizens.
 
IF YOU HIT THE BAD GUY.

You will effect the situation.

Whether it's a 380 or a 44 magnum.

Six rounds of 380 directly in a mans chest will convince him that trying to kill you (for whatever reason) is a real bad idea.

Ten rounds of 40 S&W in the walls around him will get you killed.
 
the difference between 9mm and 45 is truly negligible
if the 45 got the job done, the same shots with a 9mm would have almost certainly done so as well

Apparently the elite units of the FBI, Military and police have a mistaken impression that .45 is a better manstopper, or maybe its that they shoot a 1911 better. Most all of the SWAT and HRT and Elite military units are carrying the 1911. I have a friend who is in the FBI on their HRT/SWAT unit from Philadelphia, he is issued an HK MP5, and a Springfield 1911, he normally carries a Glock in .40S&W as his sidearm, but when the SWAT team is deployed they are ordered to carry the Springfield 1911.

So apparently their experts who do get into shootouts think the 1911 and the .45 acp round is better.
 
It is far more important to look at an instructors JUSTIFICATION for his OPINION. Looking at that you can then take it into account in deciding if the conditions under which he made his decision match yours as well as your opinion (formed by study and rationalization) of his assumptions.

Perhaps a hi-cap is better for an LEO who is more likely to be in a prolonged fight than a civilian. At the same time I do not see him saying your 45 or wheel gun is obsolete and useless.
 
oh, and as a corrallary to my above post on looking at an instructor's justification...

If an instructor refuses to give you justification when asked for his opinion then he is not worth a bucket of warm spit. He may not put that justification in every article and book when he states his opinion (although I think it a good idea to do so) but you should be able to find it out there and he should be professional enough to state it when asked directly.
 
the difference between 9mm and 45 is truly negligible
if the 45 got the job done, the same shots with a 9mm would have almost certainly done so as well
Using your analogy, I can "spray & pray" with my .22short and achieve similar results....:) There is a pronounced difference between 9 & 45...See all the caliber wars....Being a civilian, what you have in your mag will suffice. If you haven't sought cover & the "Marines" haven't arrived after you've been exhausted: your in deep "dooh-do.";)
 
IF YOU HIT THE BAD GUY.

You will effect the situation.

Whether it's a 380 or a 44 magnum.

Six rounds of 380 directly in a mans chest will convince him that trying to kill you (for whatever reason) is a real bad idea.

Ten rounds of 40 S&W in the walls around him will get you killed.

Courtesy an instructor at Gunsite (Glendale PD)
"You cannot miss fast enough to win a gun fight."
 
Agree

Musketeer said:
It is far more important to look at an instructors JUSTIFICATION for his OPINION....Perhaps a hi-cap is better for an LEO who is more likely to be in a prolonged fight than a civilian.

I certainly agree with this - the choice of gun and capacity should depend on your individual situation. The LEO and the civilian differ greatly in the type of threat they are likely to see. The LEO has to arrest people who don't want to be arrested, and he must run towards a threat and try to neutralize it. The civilian seeks to avoid threats and will always try to retreat if possible, relying upon his gun only as a last resort.

I think it is much more likely that a LEO will need that high capacity, while it would be very rare for a civilian to need it. And concealment is probably much more important to the civilian, as it might be a crime in his state to accidently reveal the gun.

All this indicates to me that a civilian CCW person will generally find a smaller capacity, more concealable gun adequate for his situation.
 
I always come back to the first rule of a gunfight. "HAVE A GUN"

As long as you have something more robust than a sharp stick you should be ok although YMMV.

The 1911 that the SWAT teams carry is as an adjunct to some form of a long gun.

Carry what you like, carry what you can shoot well, JUST CARRY!!!!

A NAA .22 can be a fight stopper if deployed correctly.

I am a huge fan of the .45ACP and that is what I carry.
 
I usually use this argument in the revolver vs. auto debate but I think it's applicable here too. Can anyone show me a documented case of a legally armed civillian in the United States (police and military don't count) who was killed or seriously wounded because his or her gun did not carry enough ammunition?
 
Worry about tactics, accuracy and reliability before you worry about caliber. IMO, if you are standing out in the open, in a gun fight, long enough to rip through a high capacity magazine there is something wrong with that. First rule of any gun fight is to find cover fast (having a gun would be another requirement I guess ;) ). From cover you have the ability to reload safely. I carry a full size 1911, 7+1, plus extra mags. If I cant find cover by the time I use the first 8 shots I'm in trouble.
 
Real story involving caliber selection and capacity

Massad Ayoob published an interesting story in American Handgunner of a Los Angeles watch store owner named Thomas who had to defend himself multiple times with a handgun in his store. Over a period of less than 3 years, Thomas was involved in four gun battles against a total of 11 known suspects. He shot six of them, killing five. The watch dealer himself was wounded on two of these occasions, taking a total of five rounds.

There are some interesting lessons in reading the exact details of his experiences. The subjects of caliber, capacity and gun selection, as well as reloading under fire, are addressed:

Ayoob article on Los Angeles watch store owner Thomas
 
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