Learned a lesson tonight

riverwalker76 said:
From a legal stand point, at what point does a CCW Permit holder make the decision to pull a loaded firearm on an unarmed aggressor?

Maybe I'm thinking a little differently than some as I do not live in a high crime area, and am not faced with the daily threat of possible loss of life or property. However, regardless of the location, at what point does the CCW turn into a criminal?
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Try walking by yourself (or with your child) at night in a dark alley in some bad neighborhood, maybe in the Bronx, Atlanta, or Miami. You will instantly know what a threat means even if they are not showing any weapons.
 
While I'm sure the driver of the other vehicle was a chucklehead, and not to disparage the OP, but I wonder if there isn't just a little more to this story. Actually I don't wonder, there are always at least two sides to every story.

Regardless,

I slowly walked away from him without breaking eye contact.
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The eyes don't pull a gun or knife, the hands and his buddies do. A strong front is good, but be sure to scan the area.

Glad you were able to deal with the situation without physical confrontation. Unfortunate that today we can't even go for a nice evening for ice cream with our family without the potential threat of confrontation. Did you talk with your daughter about it afterwards, does she understand what happened?

There is an element of our citizenry, like this aggressive individual, that just doesn't understand being part of something bigger than themselves or their crew, how to befriend strangers as one nation, one human society.
 
I hope the lesson you learned is this:

A BUG is a BUG. A BUG is for when your main carry gun fails or runs dry.

An LCP on the ankle does not allow you to leave your main carry gun at home.

If you are going to leave something home, leave the BUG.
 
Not only can one punch be fatal,
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It can there is no doubt. One punch can knock you out. One punch can feel like a fly bite. You never know unless it happens. However, in most states responding to threats or simple assault with a gun will get you locked up.

In NC try shooting someone because they busted your nose. They will lock you under the jail.
 
That is very, VERY unlikey, and not worth pulling a weapon over. It's also why I suggested hand to hand training, and also why relying on a gun as a "defensive tool" is ridiculous. You can only attack, not block, with a gun. Rifles aside.
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In my younger days, I have witnessed more than a few barfights that ended with one punch - enough to convince me that I have no intention of testing the odds. As a senior citizen, hand-to-hand combat is not one of my better options. If someone has chosen his fists as his primary weapon with which to attack me, I will assume that he is very proficient and respond with the weapon with which I consider myself to be proficient - especially when the welfare of any member of my family is also involved.
 
What's wrong with kneeling down, facing the threat with your hand near your BUG? In this position you can still hold your ground and keep your child close. I doubt the aggressor would think you were preparing yourself to draw your weapon. Your weapon stays concealed and you have the advantage.

Remember there are no rules to protecting your life and the life of your child. You don't have to stay standing the entire time. Crouch as if tying your shoe, force your child behind you and hold her with your left hand while your right hand dangles near your rig. Or something to this effect that will give you the advantage in the situation at hand.

There are times I leave my house with my g27 on my ankle and nothing on my hip. When I do its because I have athletic gear on. (Sweats, wind breakers, softball pants (of course my gun goes in my ball bag/truck while playing)) I feel very comfortable having my gun on my ankle. If a situation like this rises everyday then I would keep my gun more available but these things happen very rarely and mostly end without problem. When the problem does arise I will likely do as I stated earlier.

This is my opinion and I hope it helps.
 
I only read the OP's post... other than the (rules of a gun fight picture, lol, That is just perfect. Fighting is no good... but if it comes down to it. You might as well be prepared.)

I just had to say this. Pocket carry and all the different belt carries are the only ways I would ever consider carrying a gun.... unless I had 3 handguns! Then I might put one on my ankle. In my mind, the ankle is pretty much the furthest thing on my body from my hand, so there is no reason for me to keep a gun, or even a backup gun there. I'd think that a shoulder holster or belt holster or pocket holster would be the way to go... you could have 3 guns in all those different areas if you wanted. But I've never been a advocate of the ankle holster..... just because it's so far away.
 
It can there is no doubt. One punch can knock you out. One punch can feel like a fly bite. You never know unless it happens. However, in most states responding to threats or simple assault with a gun will get you locked up.

In NC try shooting someone because they busted your nose. They will lock you under the jail.
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Let's try keeping this discussion realistic and intelligent. That statement is neither.

So in NC I have to actually have someone cause me great bodily harm before defense is justified? What's to say someone will stop at a "busted nose?" A "busted nose" done in certain ways can be very bad or even fatal. It can mean a lifetime of disfigurement. Many operations. That's known as great bodily harm.

My understanding is "fear of great bodily harm or death." At least that's the way it works in my state.
 
I mean no disrespect of course, and I understand that age may affect your ability to physically defend yourself, and so may many other things.

But again, can your threat be taken down before he gets to you?

Can you get yourself or your loved ones out of the way while shooting/reloading/moving?

Do you practice enough with a gun that you can do this under pressure? Age affects more than just hand to hand skills.

This problem was solved without violence, which is always the best way, but no one expects a man to react that way, who are we to expect that he won't charge a man holding a gun?
 
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It can there is no doubt. One punch can knock you out. One punch can feel like a fly bite. You never know unless it happens. However, in most states responding to threats or simple assault with a gun will get you locked up.

In NC try shooting someone because they busted your nose. They will lock you under the jail.

Let's try keeping this discussion realistic and intelligent. That statement is neither.

So in NC I have to actually have someone cause me great bodily harm before defense is justified? What's to say someone will stop at a "busted nose?" A "busted nose" done in certain ways can be very bad or even fatal. It can mean a lifetime of disfigurement. Many operations. That's known as great bodily harm.

My understanding is "fear of great bodily harm or death." At least that's the way it works in my state.
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It should be remembered though that the difficulty here is that you're going to affirmatively defend the argument that you had a reasonable fear of great bodily harm or death. When you draw/use you've committed a crime and now have to affirmatively prove you had a valid defense to that crime.

Assuming the jury is going to find you had a reasonable fear in light of circumstances can be difficult. Its a fact case with a high standard. Someone shouting at you, in light of a courtroom and not the actual scene of the event can be similar to the second guessing often seen by police officers.

Does a jury see it as: Grandpa drawing after giving warnings because BG was advancing in crazy fashion, and this is verified by bystanders who can attest that the BG looked like he was: 1) about to kill the grandpa; and 2) appeared that he actually had the ability to do so.

Or does a jury see it as: Joe Blow pullls a gun and starts waiving it about because John Smith gave him the finger and shouted at him?

I am not saying drawing is right or drawing is wrong. I'm saying drawing is a potentially life changing event for everyone involved and needs to be treated as such.
 
I know of multiple incidents where a punch lead to a murder conviction. The upset hockey dad comes to mind...

....but he used his wits to get out of a dangerous situation without drawing or firing.
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I feel this was a potentially dangerous situation only, But I agree w/your post. I usually plus probably would'nt pull my weapon during a verbal argument and/or confrontation, but situations such as these can have a tendency to escalate so one must be ready. Situations such as these can also differ dramatically from 'bad idea to use a weapon here' and 'my weapon is definately needed even though this person isn't armed'. I have no problem with someone pulling a weapon when they fear serious harm. That being said only the OP truely knows if it would've been a bad idea to pull a gun during this encounter. Baiscally, both sides of the "draw" or "no draw" can be right depending on the situation. I personally am not going to go fist a cuffs w/some loopy to protect my honor and/or engage his fantasy or rage. My weapon would be drawn if someone makes up his mind that my face is about to be bashed in by his bare hands, boots, whatever.

My worthless theory is this: if the OP had to, the BUG would've been justified and would've gotten the job done...thankfully it never went that far where it was needed so unless I have more info, ther BUG's use wasn't justified and/or called for in this instance.
 
Lot's of replies and I have skimmed them quickly so forgive any repeat information.

The man had his 3 year old with him. That is the key, the crux to the entire situation.
 
Now there may be juridictions where that is not the case, but in most some form of that is the law.

Some jurisdictions may have specific "brandishing" statues specifically for CHl's, otherwise you're "under the gun" for the generic criminal charges your average road rage guy might have (assuming we're just talking drawing here).

Regardless you're generally having to prove some affirmative form of self defense. Basically you're admitting you did it, and now have to prove what you did meets the local criteria for a valid defense.
 
Lot's of replies and I have skimmed them quickly so forgive any repeat information.

The man had his 3 year old with him. That is the key, the crux to the entire situation.
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Indeed in many ways. Stepping back from the holster/BUG issue et al, absent other facts not being discussed what kind of guy goes off on another guy walking a 3 year old. In addition to helping any claim of lawful drawing (along the lines of "he did what? The other guy had a 3 year old? Yea he deserves what he got") its just offensive to me.
 
I disagree gilligan

if the OP was being witnessed in a vulgar, shouting match on his part after losing his temper, than they were both at fault. If that's the case, there is no evidence that the BG was doing anything different than the OP.

Please note I am not saying this is what happened, but I am not undertsanding why the BUG was a problem here? Were these two individuals face to face yelling at each other? I really can't see any other reason why the BUG was a problem, and the OP did state that his daughter was in tears which holds weight that this encounter did escalate in some form or another. I do know some people carry(or I should say usually just own a gun) without perfect knowledge on a weapon...this is a stretch with reference to the OP because he probably was very efficient. Some people do feel much more comfortable with specific weapons though and sometimes carry(or usually just own) unreliable weapons due to little knowledge or lack of cleaning. Most don't, I don't, but some do. I can't remember the thread but one example was the man that 'saved' the woman from the attack of three dogs. Unfortunately his small auto had a tendency of jamming after one shot. Well, she was seriously injured, but the one shot did kill one dog but there was two left!

I have two kids, and they can help(not going there - that's another blog), but that doesn't in any shape or form change the circumstances for the OP drawing on the BG unless his daughter or him were in danger in the original post. I don't get the feeling that the BG was trying to get hold of the daughter, his aggression was focused on the OP. I mean, the door incident which started the whole encounter ended in zero injury even though it was upsetting.

I also am stating to the OP that I am sorry for making 'guesses' at what happened during this incident. I am not doubting you; I just don't have all the pieces of the puzzle.

all the best
 
Here is another true story for you.

My Dad and his second cousin have been close friends their entire life. Both have dairy farms about 3 miles apart. My mom and the cousin's wife have been friends since their late teenage years as well. I will call them John and Mary for the sake of this story.

They decide to go out for dinner one evening. The wives go into town early to do some shopping, the men finish the milking, feeding, etc. and come later. Mary drives their new car. My Dad and John come in one of the farm trucks.

After eating they leave the way they came. My Mom and Mary leave in Mary's new car. The restaurant is in the country on a state two lane high way. They pull onto the road and a truck pulling a boat is coming up fast. Well, the driver of the truck, lets call him Jack (short for Jack A$$) is frustrated he had to slow down on this two lane road. He tail gates them. My mom suggests to pull over and let him pass. They find a pull-out and stop. Guess what Jack does, he pulls in and stops too. He gets out and starts cussing them and shouting and acting up. Jack didn't notice the truck behind him which had pulled in. My Dad and John pull in. John gets out, walks up to the guy and says something like, "Don't speak to her that way." Jack, being as brilliant as he is, made some comment other than "Sorry." John hit him so hard in the mouth that he was down on the ground. Jack had a friend in the truck. He started to get out. My Dad looks at him and just waves his finger, "NO". He stays put. I don't recall but I think Jack tried to get up and try his luck again. Same results. A witness drove by and seen all of this and stops at the restaurant and calls the police. The sheriff shows up. Jack shows his busted mouth and complains he has been assaulted. My Dad and John talk to the sheriff, which they have known since child hood and guess what, Jack gets to go to jail now. The sheriff doesn't even entertain the possibility of Jack filing a complaint and was told not to come back into this county again.

The OP was alone with a 3 year old. If he had been with someone like John or my Dad he could have busted the SOB's mouth and told him to learn some manners. If the mouth busting embarrassed this butt-hole too bad. Some bullies need the crap knocked out of them. I have never seen a bully escalate it further because somehow they seem to know they asked for it. Others experiences may be different. But in Kentucky, you are going to get your mouth busted if you are in our area.
 
Wow. Too much conjecture! The OP was only asking about better alternatives to an ankle holster and not to have every detailed of his encounter analyzed forward, backward, & sideways.

Heck of a welcome to member posting for the first time. :(
 
Anyone else ever use an ankle holster for their BUG? I would like to hear your thoughts.
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I have an ankle holster. Carried an airweight S&W j-frame in it a few times. But after practice at drawing the revolver out of the blasted thing, I gave up on it.

I pocket carry exclusively now. Works a whole lot better.
 
Here is another true story for you....

... in Kentucky, you are going to get your mouth busted if you are in our area.
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Different culture, for sure...in Pennsylvania usually both will be charged with assault (mutual fighting). They'll let the courts sort it out.
 
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